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The W - Current Events & Politics - The World at War
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Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 255 days
Last activity: 56 days
#1 Posted on
Okay, after seeing one of MoeGates' posts in a different topic, I came up with this response, but I feel it probably needs its own thread. Here goes. Remember that my brain isn't functioning this morning, so I'll try to keep it short:



What is a cause for WWIII?


To better define that question, I'm not asking for interpretations of Revelations/Nostradamus/etc prophecies. I'm asking more for:

What the heck are people fighting, killing, and dying for?
Why are they doing it?
What needs to be changed so that these conflicts don't happen?
How do we need to make those changes?

-Jag



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 128 days
Last activity: 128 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
What the heck are people fighting, killing, and dying for?

Because the people they are "defending" demand it. Nobody wants to be the person to back down and say "we don't need to fight" because that would seem weak. If, after 9/11, George W. Bush had gone before the nation and said "my brothers and sisters, we don't need to fight. We were wronged, but we will be the bigger people and not fight back," there would have been riots. The world is full of bitter, vengeful people who crave the opportunity to take their anger out on others. Everybody wants to be a victim so they have an excuse to fight with others.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3531 days
Last activity: 3525 days
#3 Posted on
What ever happened to the idea of justly defending yourself against an agressor? Does that mean you are a bitter, evil person?

DMC

(edited by DMC on 31.5.02 1032)


"Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality...BUT...there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit...A darkside!" -Tales from the Darkside TV show
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 128 days
Last activity: 128 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
That depends on your defenition of "justly."

Anyway, I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, as I am a pretty violent, bitter person myself. But basically, it boils down to whether you seek revenge or solution. What America calls the war on terrorism is actually America's Drive For Revenge. Killing Osama Bin Ladin would do absolutely nothing to stop terrorism, so if the USA's motivation really is to protect ourselves for terrorist activities we would be putting our time and money into domestic safety and strategizing rather than into digging through tunnels in search of a man who ultimately holds little significance in what America CLAIMS is its objective.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3531 days
Last activity: 3525 days
#5 Posted on
Dude, you must not have been watching the news bites very closely for the past 9 months, but from the beginning the Bush administration has been saying that this has little to do with getting Bin Ladin and everything to do with getting rid of the terrorist bases that his organization works from in Afghanistan. But I guess you are just being the devil's advocate again, right?
Let it be known that I too would like to see more homeland security and more stiffer treatment of immigrants and people who want to come into this country. Some European countries have apparently already begun doing things like that and I think we are just begging for The Sum Of All Fears to become a reality if we don't do the same. Call me sick and paranoid, but its almost like the whole country is just sitting around waiting for some major dramatic attack to happen so we can all "rubberneck it" and be glued to our TVs again. We've become such an insecure country since the 1960s that we've developed masichistic tendencies.

DMC



"Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality...BUT...there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit...A darkside!" -Tales from the Darkside TV show
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 3044 days
Last activity: 3040 days
#6 Posted on
If we were going after Al Queda, then why did we throw the Taliban out of power and just pull out of the Phillipines? The Taliban quickly became associated with the terrorist attacks, and while they probably weren't spilling any tears about them, they really had next to nothing to do with them.



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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 128 days
Last activity: 128 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
That's exactly my point. The President SAYS we after terrorists in general, but what is the update you see when you turn on the news? "Is Bin Laden still alive? UPDATE AT 10!" We will solve nothing by fighting over there, because to think we will do anything to do any significant damage to the terrorists in the world is stupid. If we kill all the leaders (that we know about; most of this is underground anyway and we probably don't know most of the people we are "fighting") in terrorist cults, new ones will simply arise. All we can do is protect ourselves domestically, but nobody wants to see that. All we need to please this country is a body count.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 31.5.02 1453)
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Obviously, we need to beef up homeland security. But do you think leaving terrorists alone makes us bigger people, or bigger targets?

We took the Taliban out of power because the Taliban was making Afghanistan a comfy little place for terrorists. Now, it isn't. If we can eliminate state-sponsored terrorism, I think we'll go a long way towards eliminating significant terrorist threats.



I believe I may be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3531 days
Last activity: 3525 days
#9 Posted on
I love that argument against capital punishment which says "It's not going to deter anyone from killing," or "we're never going to stop everyone." One comedian said "Well, it stopped *this* asshole, didn't it? We'll worry about the others when we get to them."

DMC



"Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality...BUT...there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit...A darkside!" -Tales from the Darkside TV show
PandaMask
Cotechino








Since: 14.5.02
From: Protected by the World Wildlife Fund

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#10 Posted on
PANDAS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!


    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Obviously, we need to beef up homeland security. But do you think leaving terrorists alone makes us bigger people, or bigger targets?

    We took the Taliban out of power because the Taliban was making Afghanistan a comfy little place for terrorists. Now, it isn't. If we can eliminate state-sponsored terrorism, I think we'll go a long way towards eliminating significant terrorist threats.



Don't forget we also put them in power, so in effect, we just bit ourselves in the ass. Bush can say that we're gonna get all terrorists and blab a bunch more Texan ye haw propaganda all he wants, but we're not doing anything but making a nest of wasps madder. I agree with Buc....waitaminnit....ah ok that's weird, anyhoo...we need to protect ourselves better, cause if you've been to an airport recently, you'd know we're really not doing much of anything.




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CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
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#11 Posted on
I'm sorry...this isn't working out.



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Gavintzu
Summer sausage








Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

Since last post: 2922 days
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Jag asks:

What the heck are people fighting, killing, and dying for?

Fighting mainly over their nations, families, homelands, religions, past injustices, current injustices ... I think that just about covers it.

Why are they doing it?

It is so easy to be swept up by the mob mentality. Individuals will do absolutely insane things when they are surrounded by a crowd who are chanting for victory or revenge or justice. For example, a few months ago during religious riots in India, Hindus set fire to hundreds of Muslims -- men, women, and small children. I saw footage on the BBC of burn victims that would tear at anyone's hearts. I'm also sure that the hundreds of Hindus who perpetrated this were not all insane psychopaths ... just extremists who were caught up by the mob mentality.

What needs to be changed so that these conflicts don't happen?

It has to begin at the individual level. If ordinary people confronted their own prejudices and opened themselves to the suffering and injustice that others are experiencing, I think the mob mentality loses alot of its power.

On the other hand (and this may be tough to swallow), Mother Nature is a bitch. Just watch some nature shows on Discovery sometime. And human beings are animals just like all of the rest of creation. Conflict and war and anger and massacres may not only be inevitable but a good thing for humanity as a whole. A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess offers a really good feel for this argument. Oh, and The Third Man argument works too -- Italy suffered hundreds of years of war and atrocity, and gave the world Leonardo and Michaelangelo and the other Renaissance artists. Switzerland had hundreds of years of peace and prosperity ... and gave the world the coocoo clock. As someone who hopes to live a long and non-eventful life, I hate this point of view. But history shows that individuals live, they suffer, and they die. Damn.






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Right now I'm flying over, yeah right now I'm flying home.
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