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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1988 days
Last activity: 1922 days
#1 Posted on
Ladies and gentlemen, a first: Me backing down.

After watching the war in Iraq unfold, I have to say: It was handled excellently. Our troops-both British and American-conducted themselves perfectly, for the most part, and did their jobs to the letter of the law. Iraq is without doubt now better off free of the reign of Saddam and his colleagues-in fact, I never debated this. My reasons for opposing the war were more the political machinations and blunt-instrument approach of many than the potential bloodbath that could've been.

Of course, this doesn't mean I agree with EVERYTHING that took place. I found the barely-concealed excitement that Bush approached the entire issue with distasteful in the extreme, and I'm praying that the change in support over Iraq doesn't lead to his administration finding excuses to attack every country it percieves, no matter how nebulously, as a threat. I also still have issue with the Bush Administration's actions during the build-up to the war. Even though it was the right thing to do, it was clear from the start that Bush et al had no interest whatsoever in attempting to maintain peaceful ties with it's partners in the U.N. Even though France's threatened veto was uncalled for-and highly dubious-the pettiness that the whole shebang descended into (encapsulated in the ridiculous "Le Resistence" tag team right now) was pathetic to witness unfold, and the vindictiveness that emerged on both sides of the fence was childish and uncalled for. It's scary to see matters as serious as world peace, WOMD, etc. descend into name-calling and sniping.

And, of course, the handling of Iraq after the war must Must MUST be paramount in everyone's minds. I have absolutely no problem with Jay Garner's appointment as interim leader of the nation; what I do have a problem with, however, is the hastiness with which the admininstration has turned it's eye once again to the offensive when there is so much more to be taken care of within Iraq. For instance, whilst nobody is arguing with the US installing a temporary ruling body, it would be nice to see some kind of rigid timetable set for the construction and opening of a self-sustained government. The lack of attention seemingly being devoted to such issues in the public eye staggers me; particularly here in England, the press has spent the majority of the war screaming "Hooray For Us!" and then have shifted focus from the important post-war issues.

So there you have it. And thoughts/issues/death threats, post 'em.



Hail To The King, Baby

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PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2831 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Just a minor quibble: Given what's come to light about France in the past couple days, I think we've been remarkably restrained. First, they opposed us. Then, they actively got others to oppose us. Now, it comes out that they were actively helping Hussein. The first two I find distasteful. The third I find to be downright hostile.



"May God bless our country and all who defend her."

George W. Bush, 3/19/03
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1988 days
Last activity: 1922 days
#3 Posted on
Hmmm. First of all, this evidence that points toward France being an active ally of Hussein has yet to be substantiated-and I doubt it will be. Remember, dig back enough and we could find papers that put both of our countries alongside various nefarious regimes. Look before you leap.

And yes, France's actions were distasteful-not simply their opposing of action in Iraq, because that's their prerogative, and if they had truly believed that itwas the wrong thing to do then their case is as just as the US's. What I found distasteful was the potential economic reasons behind their choice. I have fewer problems with Germany's opposing stance. However, France's shady schemes in said opoosition don't excuse the pettiness that flowed out in many parts of the US (the renaming of "Freedom fries", the really rather horrifying suggestion that those WWII soldiers buried in France should be exhumed and shipped back). The issues with France should have remained diplomatic and within the boundaries of international politics; instead, thanks to both sides of the dispute, it became tit-for-tat and outright stupid.

(edited by oldschoolhero on 27.4.03 1100)


Hail To The King, Baby

PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2831 days
Last activity: 2673 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
There's a difference, though, between some citizens renaming their fries and the French government actively aiding Hussein (if substantiated). There have been plenty of remarks from foreign government officials, notably Canadian and German, denouncing our President and our country in fairly unprofessional terms. Chirac was incredibly rude to his fellow Europeans, as well. The worst we've offered is the phrase "old Europe."



"May God bless our country and all who defend her."

George W. Bush, 3/19/03
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1270 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
From the sounds of it, with France actively helping a belligerent nation, France sounds like they're gonnga get it...




cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3288 days
Last activity: 3078 days
#6 Posted on
Now, speaking for bush. Lets just add France to the list. The list that has North Korea, Syria, and I think even Cuba on it. We will just take them all out one at a time.

(edited by cokeman on 28.4.03 0747)


godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3906 days
Last activity: 3852 days
#7 Posted on
There's a difference, though, between some citizens renaming their fries and the French government actively aiding Hussein (if substantiated).

And since it hasn't been substantiated, how about we all cool our heels on it until it does? American intelligence officials are already downplaying the France documents as normal diplomatic traffic and nothing more.

There have been plenty of remarks from foreign government officials, notably Canadian and German, denouncing our President and our country in fairly unprofessional terms.

I can't speak for the Germans, but the Canadian who denounced Americans as "bastards" was reprimanded (and it should be noted that the remark came after the American ambassador here, Paul Celluci, issued a speech that essentially boiled down to "why aren't you just getting in line and helping?", which was pretty damned insulting.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1430 days
Last activity: 338 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by cokeman
    Now, speaking for bush. Lets just add France to the list. The list that has North Korea, Syria, and I think even Cuba on it. We will just take them all out one at a time.

    (edited by cokeman on 28.4.03 0747)



What's scary is that charming 5th grade rhetoric like this has now become national policy.




-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1316 days
Last activity: 83 days
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Y!:
#9 Posted on
    Originally posted by asteroidboy

      Originally posted by cokeman
      Now, speaking for bush. Lets just add France to the list. The list that has North Korea, Syria, and I think even Cuba on it. We will just take them all out one at a time.

      (edited by cokeman on 28.4.03 0747)



    What's scary is that charming 5th grade rhetoric like this has now become national policy.


Can you site some examples of this? I don't recall any government official seriously suggesting we threaten France, or even Cuba, with invasion... We may be annoyed, or even pissed at them, but no serious "national policy" has been suggested, no troops have been positioned, hell, Bush has not even come out and named France a new member of the "Axis of Evil."

How is this "rhetoric" any less 5th grade than cokeman's, Asteroid? Sounds like someone needs to step down from his high horse...

That aside- kudos to you, oldschool. You have managed to admit what points you were wrong about, while still maintaining the strength of your convicions. We need more Lefties like you to debate with...


(edited by Pool-Boy on 28.4.03 1336)



Still on the Shelf #5
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1430 days
Last activity: 338 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
Can you site some examples of this? I don't recall any government official seriously suggesting we threaten France, or even Cuba, with invasion... We may be annoyed, or even pissed at them, but no serious "national policy" has been suggested, no troops have been positioned, hell, Bush has not even come out and named France a new member of the "Axis of Evil."

No, Bush has just winked at Americans who are taking retribution against French people living in this country. And the fact that behind closed doors, the policy is "Everyone wants to go to Baghdad. Real men want to go to Tehran."

http://www.unansweredquestions.net/timeline/2002/newsweek081102.html

How is this "rhetoric" any less 5th grade than cokeman's, Asteroid? Sounds like someone needs to step down from his high horse...

Yeah, that doesn't sound like the drunken frat guy at the bar, proclaiming "Ah think we should nuke the whole fucking country into a parkin' lot. Even the women and children."

You guys know this! It's your ignorant base that a few herders like Karl Rove corral into the polls every few years.

And I'll step off my high horse when I stop being right.

That aside- kudos to you, oldschool. You have managed to admit what points you were wrong about, while still maintaining the strength of your convicions. We need more Lefties like you to debate with...


Kiss that whip, baby.



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1270 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    And I'll step off my high horse when I stop being right.

Said like a true lib...




messenoir
Summer sausage








Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

Since last post: 547 days
Last activity: 413 days
AIM:  
#12 Posted on
Oh, come off it Grimis, asteroidboy's comment was ignorant, but I have seen you all say the same thing before.

(edited by messenoir on 28.4.03 1829)
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 335 days
Last activity: 329 days
#13 Posted on

There is a wonderful bit of old tape somewhere of Senator Lloyd Bentsen, years ago, not just advocating, but asking for a nuclear attack on North Korea. Funny, in a scary sort of way...



George Washington gave his signature
The Government gave its hand
They said for now and ever more that this was Indian Land

"As long as the moon shall rise"
"As long as the rivers flow"
"As long as the sun will shine"
"As long as the grass shall grow"


TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2451 days
Last activity: 2450 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#14 Posted on
What I'm worried about happening is a slow neglecting of Iraq, ala what's happened in Afghanistan. I talked with one of the major Afghani ambassadors a few months ago, and (I believe) he said that the U.S. was helping some, but given the state of affairs there, they would need far more help than what they currently have to ensure the stability of the new government.

If we can't do that in Afghanistan, can we do that in Iraq? That's what I'm afraid of.







Which Neglected Mario Character Are You?

cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3288 days
Last activity: 3078 days
#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
      Originally posted by asteroidboy

        Originally posted by cokeman
        Now, speaking for bush. Lets just add France to the list. The list that has North Korea, Syria, and I think even Cuba on it. We will just take them all out one at a time.

        (edited by cokeman on 28.4.03 0747)



      What's scary is that charming 5th grade rhetoric like this has now become national policy.


    Can you site some examples of this? I don't recall any government official seriously suggesting we threaten France, or even Cuba, with invasion... We may be annoyed, or even pissed at them, but no serious "national policy" has been suggested, no troops have been positioned, hell, Bush has not even come out and named France a new member of the "Axis of Evil."

    How is this "rhetoric" any less 5th grade than cokeman's, Asteroid? Sounds like someone needs to step down from his high horse...

    That aside- kudos to you, oldschool. You have managed to admit what points you were wrong about, while still maintaining the strength of your convicions. We need more Lefties like you to debate with...


    (edited by Pool-Boy on 28.4.03 1336)



I was just kidding. Calm down.



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