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The W - Current Events & Politics - The State of the Union (Page 3)
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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#41 Posted on

    Originally posted by vsp

      Originally posted by PalpatineW
      Also, there's a difference between sitting on one's hands during the entire address out of principled objection (which I can completely respect), and laughing (Pelosi) or passing out drunk/sleeping (Massachusetts' own Teddy K).


    I'll cut Pelosi plenty of slack. If what I've read is accurate, Pelosi's laughter came after Bush said "92 million Americans will keep, this year, an average of almost $1,000 more of their own money." The line WAS pretty freakin' funny for those with a few math skills.




I missed this part of the speech. Why is this so laughable?



Your analogy is similar to:

"They already have cars that you can drive, why not blenders?"
"I can already write with my hands, why not my pancreas?"
"They already have beef that I can eat, why not granite?"

-- my new favorite quote from Slashdot comments.

Gavintzu
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

Since last post: 2774 days
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Guru sez:

    I missed this part of the speech. Why is this so laughable?

92,000,000 Americans saving on average $1000 each would work out to be a $92,000,000,000 tax cut -- that's a $92 billion tax cut. (I'm a philosophy major though, so don't take my word on it )

After that, I would imagine the US will be bombing Iraq with biplanes and invading with a cavalry.






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And I won't open a letter bomb for you.
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Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1177 days
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Gavintzu
    92,000,000 Americans saving on average $1000 each would work out to be a $92,000,000,000 tax cut -- that's a $92 billion tax cut. (I'm a philosophy major though, so don't take my word on it


Let's face it; the tax cut still isn't as much as it should be.


    Originally posted by Gavintzu
    After that, I would imagine the US will be bombing Iraq with biplanes and invading with a cavalry.


Oh please. The United States as a budget well over a TRILLION dollars. We can cut some riff-raff, eliminate a lot of wasteful programs and find money for the war.

(edited by Grimis on 31.1.03 0658)


Americans are a resolute people who have risen to every test of our time. Adversity has revealed the character of our country, to the world and to ourselves. America is a strong nation, and honorable in the use of our strength. We exercise power without conquest, and we sacrifice for the liberty of strangers. Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity.
- President George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, 1/28/2003
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2941 days
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Guru Zim

      Originally posted by vsp

        Originally posted by PalpatineW
        Also, there's a difference between sitting on one's hands during the entire address out of principled objection (which I can completely respect), and laughing (Pelosi) or passing out drunk/sleeping (Massachusetts' own Teddy K).


      I'll cut Pelosi plenty of slack. If what I've read is accurate, Pelosi's laughter came after Bush said "92 million Americans will keep, this year, an average of almost $1,000 more of their own money." The line WAS pretty freakin' funny for those with a few math skills.




    I missed this part of the speech. Why is this so laughable?



The laughable part is that the "average" Bush mentioned is dramatically skewed by the high end. You're supposed to assume that most people are close to the median when it comes to who-gains-what from the tax cuts; they're not.

For example, picture a neighborhood bar with nineteen people in it, all typical middle-class citizens and consumers. Bill Gates walks in. Suddenly, the average bank balance of the twenty people has risen by multiple decimal places. Can the lucky nineteen now go out and buy Ferraris with their newfound "average" wealth? Similar math can be applied here.



"Ah, the old exploding-beartrap-in-the-ass trick." -- Goemon Ishikawa
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#45 Posted on

    Originally posted by Gavintzu
    Guru sez:

      I missed this part of the speech. Why is this so laughable?

    92,000,000 Americans saving on average $1000 each would work out to be a $92,000,000,000 tax cut -- that's a $92 billion tax cut. (I'm a philosophy major though, so don't take my word on it )

    After that, I would imagine the US will be bombing Iraq with biplanes and invading with a cavalry.




I'll agree that perhaps that line was "iffy," word tricks. Hell, all politicians use then (re:Clinton/Lewinsky/Sex Act). There are four different kinds of averages, and it is very likely that Bush was using the "median" as opposed to the "mean" to come up with that number. Probably not the best tactic I will admit, but not a lie.
Personally, while everyone is focusing on that line, I think the next line is far better -
" A family of four with an income of 40,000 dollars would see their federal income taxes fall from 1,178 dollars to 45 dollars per year"
How could you get more straight forward than that? That is a huge tax cut for a working family. The specifics he mentioned about other tax cuts were great. I am not going to quibbly over how questionable one line was in light of all of that.
And Pelosi disgusted me, I am sorry. I would have felt the same way had a Republican did that. She looked less like someone with an open mind, a different opinion, and someone who was involved in the process of solving a problem, and more like a spoiled little brat who was not getting her way.
Maybe dignity is something that is too much to expect from our Congress...



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Corajudo
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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 23 hours
#46 Posted on
Actually, the 'median' wouldn't skew the numbers like the 'mean' because it wouldn't include the extremes. In VSP's example, if Gates moved into a neighborhood of 19 middle class families, the mean would skyrocket while the median would not budge. I have no idea which Bush meant. If he said the average family, then he was probably using the mean and if he said the median family, then he was probably using the median. However, I would not characterize Bush as being particularly precise with regards to vocabulary so his meaning is up to debate.

Also, the lion's share of the tax cut for the family of four is from the increased dependent deductions and from the increased child care credit. A married couple earning (for example) $30,000 that had no kids would argue that example is not straightforward either.

EDIT: I'm an idiot and screwed up the quote so I just removed it.

(edited by Corajudo on 31.1.03 1316)
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2941 days
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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
There's also the matter of payroll taxes, which hit lower-income families harder than federal income taxes, but that's opening up a different can of worms.




"Ah, the old exploding-beartrap-in-the-ass trick." -- Goemon Ishikawa
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 23 hours
#48 Posted on

    Originally posted by vsp
    There's also the matter of payroll taxes, which hit lower-income families harder than federal income taxes, but that's opening up a different can of worms.



The problem with this is that the payroll taxes are supposed to go to Social Security (at least most of it is) and the Democrats have placed themselves in a corner on this issue by screaming about the 'lockbox' and not robbing Social Security. Personally, I'd love it if the plan included some type of exemption on payroll taxes. It'd be more straightforward and would help far more households.
Brian P. Dermody
Liverwurst
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Since: 20.9.02
From: New York, NY

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#49 Posted on

    Originally posted by Gavintzu
    After that, I would imagine the US will be bombing Iraq with biplanes and invading with a cavalry.





Let's give it a shot. The **ELITE REPUBLICAN GUARD** was surrendering to CNN last time out... we could save ourselves a fortune by sending them Serena Altschul and a camera crew, Baghdad will fall by the first of May.



Modern Humorist
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