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The W - Current Events & Politics - The Jim Bunning crisis (Page 2)
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Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 77 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
Your entire philosophy boils down to "well, this is how I did it, so EVERYONE must be exactly the same as me". But then, that's the conservative mindset in a nutshell. THAT is a lack of empathy. People are different.

It's easy for you to sit back and pretend that nothing's changed in the last century, and that what worked 50 years ago would work today. But it's simply not feasible for a lot of people to up sticks and move, either their family or themselves, away to a new location to go job-chasing. What you call sacrifice, most would call risk - we're not talking a guaranteed military paycheck here. So a guy moves five states away to take a menial job. Does this cover his rent? Because he's now paying for two households. What happens if this job disappears? Who feeds his kids then? Does he hop back on the rails and find another Hoboville somewhere?

Also, this "well, so many poor people have all these perks!" thing you've got going is a horrible generalisation, and reinforces the notion that the right have an unchanging view of every unemployed person as a shiftless layabout. It's utter nonsense. You haven't been there yourself, so you absolutely refuse to accept that some people lose work and cannot find more within a decent timeframe. BUT IT HAPPENS. And the fact that you'd side with this blowhard highly-paid government employee, who complains about missing a basketball game whilst witholding vital money from those that need it, is just astonishing.

AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Your entire philosophy boils down to "well, this is how I did it, so EVERYONE must be exactly the same as me".


No. My entire philosophy boils down to

1. work hard.

2. Stop complaining.

3. See #1



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

Amos Cochran
Lap cheong








Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 77 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
Yes, life is that simple.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Your entire philosophy boils down to "well, this is how I did it, so EVERYONE must be exactly the same as me". But then, that's the conservative mindset in a nutshell. THAT is a lack of empathy. People are different.



Empathy is one of the most misunderstood things.

Personally, empathy means understanding somebody's situation. It doesn't mean feeling sorry for them. I understand the plight of the jobless because I am one of them. But, I don't think it's the federal government's job to meet my needs. It's my responsibility.

The problem is this. Your thought that those who are more conservative than others don't care about the poor, less fortunate is wrong.

The difference is, most of the conservatives tend to help those less fortunate by giving their time and money, whereas liberals think the government should be the ones doing the helping.

And, I don't know how it is in jolly old England but here in the states, the majority of American's do have cable tv, do have cars, do have cell phones. Even the poor people. Hell, our government is even helping poor people GET cell phones. I'm quite sure the 'poor' people in Bangladesh would gladly trade places with the 'poor' people in the USA.




(edited by StaggerLee on 4.3.10 1147)
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Even the poor people. Hell, our government is even helping poor people GET cell phones.


Yeah, but this is because payphones have become unprofitable because everyone else is using a cellphone, so payphones are being decommissioned at an increasingly rapid rate. In terms of infrastructure, payphones are far more expensive to maintain than cellphones - and having people in dense urban areas (or any other area, for that matter) without, at the very least, the ability to communicate with emergency personnel is inherently dangerous.

Vanishing pay phones in U.S. cause concern (nytimes.com)



Who likes the little little duckies in the pond? I do, I do, I do, a chicka-quack quack.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Even the poor people. Hell, our government is even helping poor people GET cell phones.


    Yeah, but this is because payphones have become unprofitable because everyone else is using a cellphone, so payphones are being decommissioned at an increasingly rapid rate. In terms of infrastructure, payphones are far more expensive to maintain than cellphones - and having people in dense urban areas (or any other area, for that matter) without, at the very least, the ability to communicate with emergency personnel is inherently dangerous.

    Vanishing pay phones in U.S. cause concern (nytimes.com)


Yes, I agree with the fact that pay phones are nearly extinct, but is it the government's job to make sure everybody has a phone?
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.36
Not having a phone number means you can't get a job. Period. A cell phone is one of the least frivolous things you can have if you are homeless - it's the only guaranteed way to reach someone without a mailing address.

When was the last time you tendered a job offer to someone on the spot without setting up an interview first? Not many people know about Grand Central (Now Google Voice) but it is one way that the homeless / poor can have a guaranteed contact number so they can actually get a job.

The government would not be well served by large portions of the population up and moving. We have an interest in stability. Imagine if everyone in Detroit showed up in Montanna tomorrow because there was a mine hiring there.

Remember those stories last year about tens of thousands of people showing up to glean the fields?

I feel like you are focusing on the very small picture and missing the big picture completely. What if everyone moved to Houston because they heard there were jobs there? How well did that work after Katrina?

Remember the Grapes of Wrath?

Some people are douches and most aren't. I'm ok with some douches getting by if for the greater good we end up with a better society.

I much prefer 2010 America to 1910 America, and will gladly pay my income tax and support the social programs that I hope I never have to use.




Sign up for Folding@Home and join our team. PM me for details.

Ignorance is bliss for you, hell for me.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 6 hours
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
    Originally posted by StaggerLee


    The difference is, most of the conservatives tend to help those less fortunate by giving their time and money, whereas liberals think the government should be the ones doing the helping.

    (edited by StaggerLee on 4.3.10 1147)


Whoa. You say most conservatives than essentially all liberals. Wrong. I am "liberal" and believe in both. We as a family do both. And I know plenty of "conservatives" who don't do crap to help and others that put me to shame.

One last point that really bothers me on both sides. We speak of the government and then the people. We should (need) to be the same thing.

Amos, you know very little if anything regarding AWA. I know a bit more and you are off base in you sarcasm. Part of the difference is that I would classify him as a true or traditional conservative not a neocon like most of the pols in Washington. I am a classic FDR type liberal, not like the schmucks saying they are liberal in D.C. Be careful of conclusions you draw about someone, anyone based on a few or more posts.

(edited by DrDirt on 4.3.10 1226)


Perception is reality
Captaincuba
Italian








Since: 25.10.05

Since last post: 196 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.79
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by Amos Cochran
      Your entire philosophy boils down to "well, this is how I did it, so EVERYONE must be exactly the same as me".


    No. My entire philosophy boils down to

    1. work hard.

    2. Stop complaining.

    3. See #1


Try walking in my shoes...You'll stumble in my footsteps... - DM

I've worked hard my whole life, had a six figure job taken from me because I bonused into 6 figures three years in a row. They replaced me with someone making 40k.

I worked retail for 10+ years in upper and middle management, missed every Christmas, every holiday...those were MY SACRIFICES. I left my last job to get a 9-5 as a fulfillment director. That job evaporated in 1 year. I tried to return to the retail sector and applied to 233 jobs, interviewed for 77, and was finally able to get back to my last retail job at HALF MY SALARY. When I went to put my son in daycare it cost roughly 120 less than what I would have made at the job over the course of a month. Couple that with my father having 6 months to live and I decided to let someone else take the job...I would have lost it anyway, my dad turned for the worst and went into hospice in 2 months. He died 3 weeks after that.

Since then, I've continued looking, but either 1. Nothing pays enough to offset the cost of child care or 2. I'm OVER-QUALIFIED and will not get hired.

During this same time, my fiance was fired for being pregnant, won the case with the EEOC, but the company stalled long enough to file Bankruptcy so they wouldn't have to pay her the settlement. She is out legal fees and had to declare bankruptcy because her 14k in debt went from 11% interest, to 29% once she sent in ONE LATE PAYMENT in the 22 years she had the credit card.

This all occurred 3 months into buying a new 600k home. We exhausted all of our savings to stay afloat, she secured a job paying her a third of what she made. We make enough now (between her job and my UE benefits) to make it check to check.

By my estimate, we can survive for 14 more months with what we have saved and the help my mother gives us since she moved upstairs.

So what have I done in the interim? I went back to Community College and am in the process of becoming a Science teacher. Once I have my 60 credits I can start subbing and eventually get my foot in the door when I graduate.

So before you go spouting your holier than thou opinions, you need to realize that there are people out there that WOULD KILL TO FIND WORK. Hell, I even tried to get a couple of overnight-shifts at the local supermarket, but they decided to not leave it open 24 hours anymore because we live in a "nice neighborhood" and no one shops at those hours.

CC
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 6 hours
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
Captaincuba

I am not sticking up for AWA but you are proving his point. You keep busting you ass and haven't quit. The trouble with his philosophy is like all things, it isn't 100% true or false. In a topic like this we naturally fall into what our experiences are and while true for us, don't necessarily mean they are the norm. It's hard but this is an issue where we really need to cap the emotion and biases and look at facts.



Perception is reality
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
sounds like you're "working hard" and not complaining much anyway.

Crap happens - my wife used to make 100k or so. She doesn't anymore, we live on my pay because to work in her role she would now have to go get a different degree. She could work in a different part of her industry, but doesn't want to. But she could find work, yes.

so, yep. We live in a smaller house in a less nicer neighborhood. We have no cars manufactured in this millennium. We're saving right now to replace our 20 year old lawn mower.

Look, you are retraining. Sounds like you're doing the right thing. Sounds like you've worked and are working hard. What did I say that didn't agree with what you're doing?

And let me say, I have no problem with unemployment insurance benefits, because you and your employer pay into that while you are working based on a certain time length after a layoff. My problem is our current policy of extending them at that rate almost indefinitely. For some (probably not you, but for some) that encourages not going back to work.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

Captaincuba
Italian








Since: 25.10.05

Since last post: 196 days
Last activity: 70 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.79


I edited my post after reading yours. I guess my point is that if they weren't extended (I'm going into my 4th extension this week) then I would have lost it all. Extensions are being used properly, I didn't wait until the end to look around and go..."Oh my god. Im out of UE! What do I do now?!?!"

Every single person I know on UE (and over the last 3 years there have been many) I advise to go retrain or re-educate. Most don't listen and their time will soon come to an end.

My point is that this is a situation that has shades of gray. Sure there are people out there abusing the system, but there are others, like me, that are using it the way it is supposed to be used.

Do you really think I want to be on unemployment? At least I'm trying to work/study my way out of it. We have a calendar with my graduation date on it in 2011. In the interim, if I find something that makes financial sense, I'm all over it in a second.

I live 2 miles from the retail center of the universe...and I can assure you that there is not a single store hiring in any capacity that I could work for them. Stores don't open here after 930 PM or on Sundays due to blue laws.

Look, at this point CRZ or Zim are getting ready to send me a message telling me to cool it, so I'll leave it with this.

I understand there are facts that should dictate the course of action taken on such a touchy subject. But the fact remains that you can't judge everyone on the actions of the few. I'm blessed to live in a country where I can have the means to reinvent myself into a career that will help society. Im blessed to live in a country where I can get by while anywhere else in the world my 19 month old would be on the streets with me right now. And Im blessed that some people out there still have compassion enough to care for their fellow man.

CC

(edited by Captaincuba on 4.3.10 1314)

(edited by Captaincuba on 4.3.10 1316)
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 11 hours
Last activity: 11 hours
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
    Originally posted by DrDirt

    Whoa. You say most conservatives than essentially all liberals. Wrong. I am "liberal" and believe in both. We as a family do both. And I know plenty of "conservatives" who don't do crap to help and others that put me to shame.

I generalized and perhaps I should not have. Most surveys show that conservatives give more than liberals. I didn't mean to insinuate that ALL liberals don't give. I volunteer with Habitat for Humanity, and I'm the only one who isn't a card carrying democrat.

    Originally posted by Guru
    Not having a phone number means you can't get a job. Period. A cell phone is one of the least frivolous things you can have if you are homeless - it's the only guaranteed way to reach someone without a mailing address.


That's all well and good, but is it the GOVERNMENTS job to make sure poor people have phones?
Should they be paying my cell bill since I am unemployed?

Also, meant to add this link
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2010/03/column-why-i-took-a-stand-.html






(edited by StaggerLee on 4.3.10 1328)
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 37 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    I found him a job, but he'd have to: a: Move and B: learn to do new stuff. He doesn't want to. I'm supposed to have empathy for that?

Have you ever considered starting your own employment agency on the side? You seem to be a superstar at finding jobs for other people.

I have an undergraduate degree from a top 10 school and a graduate degree from a top 20 school. I also have a stack of work experience and a resume people often like to tell me is "impressive." There are very few jobs I've looked at where I'd be considered underqualified. But I've been out of work and searching for opportunities nearly three years now. Fortunately, I've been able to make some spare change working for myself, and I'm currently about to take a HUGE risk on a new venture in hopes it brings in steady income. But at this point I don't really have a choice, it's either sink or swim. I've looked for work in every city I've ever lived in (seven) and several more I've never even set foot in (five). There's really not much out there.

12 cities + 2 degrees + 1 great resume + tons of work experience = 0 jobs. And I know plenty more just like me.

- StingArmy
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by StingArmy
      Originally posted by AWArulz
      I found him a job, but he'd have to: a: Move and B: learn to do new stuff. He doesn't want to. I'm supposed to have empathy for that?

    Have you ever considered starting your own employment agency on the side? You seem to be a superstar at finding jobs for other people.


I work for a company that has 165,000 employees. We have open positions that internal employees can access and recommend (and we get a bonus if the person is hired and stays 180 days, so, yeah).

    Originally posted by Stingarmy

    I have an undergraduate degree from a top 10 school and a graduate degree from a top 20 school. I also have a stack of work experience and a resume people often like to tell me is "impressive."


as noted, degrees and skills are cool, if in fact that is in demand. That's why I changed out nearly 16 years ago. My skill (and it was quite high within my trade) was, for lack of a better term, going obsolete. There were fewer and fewer positions open. So, I retrained. My resume is impressive too - but my skills 16 years ago were limited to a thing I did very well than quite a few other people did well.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 17 hours
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.06
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    That's all well and good, but is it the GOVERNMENTS job to make sure poor people have phones?


Frankly, I don't care who put the phone in the hand of the guy on disability who lives in the building right next to mine, so long as he is able to call 911 should he have a fire in his apartment. Or have a heart attack. Or see an accident on the major street on which we live - which is averaging about four a year, including a hit-and-run.

This is precisely the reason this program was started in the first place (although back in 1984, it wasn't cellphones but landlines). If he's able to afford it on his own, then WONDERFUL! If the government subsidizes him, then that's great, too.

(edited by Leroy on 4.3.10 1640)

Who likes the little little duckies in the pond? I do, I do, I do, a chicka-quack quack.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
Except "government subsidized" means tax payer money. I just don't think it's the government's place to be spending money this way.

And, before anybody says it, yes, I was against Bush running up the deficit as well.


What's next? Free food for everybody? I mean, we all have to eat, right?
whatever
Lap cheong








Since: 12.2.02
From: Cleveland, Ohio

Since last post: 30 days
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.47
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Except "government subsidized" means tax payer money. I just don't think it's the government's place to be spending money this way.

    And, before anybody says it, yes, I was against Bush running up the deficit as well.


    What's next? Free food for everybody? I mean, we all have to eat, right?
Hmmm, maybe instead of distributing food directly they could issue some sort of voucher or stamp that could be redeemed at a store.

What next, health care for seniors?




"As you may have read in Robert Parker's Wine Newsletter, 'Donaghy Estates tastes like the urine of Satan, after a hefty portion of asparagus.'" Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock

AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by whatever
    Hmmm, maybe instead of distributing food directly they could issue some sort of voucher or stamp that could be redeemed at a store.

    What next, health care for seniors?


On the second one, well, you pay in (if you're working) each paycheck to fund that. I am totally in favor or personal insurance and personal retirement, which is what your SSI deduction covers, supposedly. Unfortunately, instead of funding that directly, as it should, the money goes into the general fund, where things like current medicaid or various earmarks are paid for. So it is due to be non viable in a few years. Fortunately, I have made my own personal arrangements in addition to what I am paying to the government for what I hope will still be available in 15 years when I am 67.

On the first, well, I am generally not in favor of welfare, but food stamps I see. Although as a former worker in a food store, I saw a lot of abuse in the system then (and hear of a fair amount now). That varies from state to state, I am sure.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 6 hours
Last activity: 3 hours
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by whatever
      Hmmm, maybe instead of distributing food directly they could issue some sort of voucher or stamp that could be redeemed at a store.

      What next, health care for seniors?


    On the second one, well, you pay in (if you're working) each paycheck to fund that. I am totally in favor or personal insurance and personal retirement, which is what your SSI deduction covers, supposedly. Unfortunately, instead of funding that directly, as it should, the money goes into the general fund, where things like current medicaid or various earmarks are paid for. So it is due to be non viable in a few years. Fortunately, I have made my own personal arrangements in addition to what I am paying to the government for what I hope will still be available in 15 years when I am 67.

    On the first, well, I am generally not in favor of welfare, but food stamps I see. Although as a former worker in a food store, I saw a lot of abuse in the system then (and hear of a fair amount now). That varies from state to state, I am sure.


I swear I am not trying to derail this but please remember no matter how they were sold, programs such as Food Stamps, WIC, and school lunch program had as much or more to do with keeping farmers on the farm as helping anybody.



Perception is reality
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