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The W - Current Events & Politics - The Health Care Debacle (Page 3)
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drjayphd
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Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.83
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    And Leroy, when you say "oh please" to AWA about freedom, I wonder, does that mean you were cool with the Patriot Act?


Sarcasm REALLY doesn't travel well over the series of tubes.

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    No doubt that in most of those cases that their estate picked up any costs (but on the other hand, probably most of them died when the fast car they bought with the money they would have spent on heath insurance hit a tree, so little money was spent on them.


WHAT money? I had the option of COBRA when I got sacked. Of course, the deductible would still be insanely high, as it'd be under the old employer's plan, and my contribution would be over $400/month, which is nearly half my unemployment benefits. I'd imagine I'm not the only one in that position, jobless or employed, and the only reason I have a decent car is because I got it while I still had the job. Yeah, some choice about insurance.





You wanted the best, you got... the Out of Context Quote of the Week.

"Besides, you already had me at "Blood and semen."" (Zeruel)

StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.07
I got the sarcasm.
My point was, AWA was complaining about freedom from government. People who DON'T think this is a massive intrusion on their privacy seem to also be the ones who were very worried about "the man" knowing what library books they checked out.
That's the only point I was making.

I am not sure which state you live in drjayphd, but I can get insurance out of pocket for much less than $400 a month here in Missouri.
Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.38
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So having insurance really makes no difference when something catastrophic happens.


Now you're getting it!



You'll have to explain how citing legislation that made it HARDER for people to file for bankruptcy is relevant.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    And Leroy, when you say "oh please" to AWA about freedom, I wonder, does that mean you were cool with the Patriot Act?


Actually, I said, "Oh, COME ON...", but it meant the same thing.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    People who DON'T think this is a massive intrusion on their privacy seem to also be the ones who were very worried about "the man" knowing what library books they checked out.


That's not even apples and oranges. That's apples and alfredo sauce.

I trust the government only slightly more than the insurance companies that profit off of finding ways to deny people coverage. Well, THIS government, anyway... but, at this point, I'm starting to lose my patients (no pun intended) with them as well.

(edited by Leroy on 21.12.09 2326)

Who likes the little little duckies in the pond? I do, I do, I do, a chicka-quack quack.
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.56
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I got the sarcasm.
    My point was, AWA was complaining about freedom from government. People who DON'T think this is a massive intrusion on their privacy seem to also be the ones who were very worried about "the man" knowing what library books they checked out.
    That's the only point I was making.


That cuts both ways. You and AWA no doubt were fine and dandy with the myraid encroachments on privacy during Bush's term. So you're fine for privacy to be trampled all over for the sake of nebulous terrorist hunting, but when the government wants to stop poor people from dying from preventable illnesses it's a gross invasion and the destruction of freedom.

Just playing devil's advocate.
Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    I'm no congressional rules expert, but the Democrats could've passed any bill they wanted had they enacted the 'reconciliation' tactic or whatever it's called, right? I mean, the Republicans passed loads of bills by a 52-48 or close margin during their reign, while suddenly when the Democrats are in power, now a 60-vote threshold is needed because the GOP is Borg-like in its voting practices.

    'Reconciliation,' as is my limited understanding of it, means that a bill only has to pass by a simple majority vote.



Reconciliation can only be used for things that affect the budget. Now, things get a little tricky when you consider that a great many things can affect the budget, and someone called the Senate Parliamentarian has to make the call as to whether something is budget-related enough to qualify. So the Democrats could have gone that way, and arguably should have, but they couldn't just pass anything they wanted to.

In most of the cases when the Republicans were in power, no one threatened a filibuster. Filibusters have been on a steady rise since the 60s--there was a column in the New York Times about it yesterday, and probably several other recent articles in various places--but they absolutely exploded when the Democrats came back to power a few years ago. What was once a drastic measure reserved for special circumstances has become routine, being applied to some 70% of major bills.
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.49
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by AWArulz
      ah, freedom. I guess we don't actually NEED that.
    Since it's perfectly constitutional to force me to buy auto insurance, why the heck wouldn't it be as equally constitutional to force me to buy health insurance? FREEDOM!


ah, yes, but that is a state law. They are empowered to do that by THEIR constitutions - and if I don't like it, I can move to a different state. If your state requires auto insurance it is because it is a state law, because that power was not extended to the federal government by the constitution.

These states do not have compulsory auto insurance liability laws:

1. New Hampshire
2. Wisconsin


The same with state income tax - some have it and some do not.





We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

wmatistic
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Since: 2.2.04
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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by CRZ
        Originally posted by AWArulz
        ah, freedom. I guess we don't actually NEED that.
      Since it's perfectly constitutional to force me to buy auto insurance, why the heck wouldn't it be as equally constitutional to force me to buy health insurance? FREEDOM!


    ah, yes, but that is a state law. They are empowered to do that by THEIR constitutions - and if I don't like it, I can move to a different state. If your state requires auto insurance it is because it is a state law, because that power was not extended to the federal government by the constitution.

    These states do not have compulsory auto insurance liability laws:

    1. New Hampshire
    2. Wisconsin


    The same with state income tax - some have it and some do not.




If you don't like this bill becoming law, technically moving is still an option. Not trying to be dickish there, just saying it's not much of an argument.
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.48
Stagger, regarding children, in an ideal world (the term I believe I used) I agree with you. However, many children do not receive the care they need because their parents can't or wont take proper care of them. I leave in a small town of 1100 with a school district of 350 students. Over 2/3 qualify for free or reduced lunches. Many come from families of three or more siblings. Even if the parents want to, due to cost most can't afford insurance and rely on the county health department and/or Medicaid. I know you don't want these kids not to receive proper medical attention. We as a society have a responsibility to these children.

It would be wonderful if we could care for them via churches, private groups, etc., but the need is overwhelming.

And not speaking for AWA but I we have had many off board discussions and I would warn everone not to pigeonhole him and his beliefs. And I say this as a Democrat and a liberal.



Perception is reality
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.48
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Over 2/3 qualify for free or reduced lunches. Many come from families of three or more siblings.


I know all about the free lunch program - in our town, WE, MY family, with a relatively hardworking adult father and a stay at home Mom qualified for free lunches. At the time, I was making like 70K.

That's why this country is so screwed up. When your kids need stuff, you sacrifice, you pick up a second job.

There was more, but I deleted it here

That was a fun rant. Ignore it if you want

(edited by AWArulz on 22.12.09 1003)


We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.48
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      Over 2/3 qualify for free or reduced lunches. Many come from families of three or more siblings.


    I know all about the free lunch program - in our town, WE, MY family, with a relatively hardworking adult father and a stay at home Mom qualified for free lunches. At the time, I was making like 70K.

    That's why this country is so screwed up. When your kids need stuff, you sacrifice, you pick up a second job.

    There was more, but I deleted it here

    That was a fun rant. Ignore it if you want

    (edited by AWArulz on 22.12.09 1003)


In our area, trust me there are no 70K income people. These are mostly workers on farms and cattle operations with no benefits.

And I agree about doing what you have to. But out where I live, without transportation to drive at least 30 miles, there aren't many jobs.



Perception is reality
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.48
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    In our area, trust me there are no 70K income people. These are mostly workers on farms and cattle operations with no benefits.

    And I agree about doing what you have to. But out where I live, without transportation to drive at least 30 miles, there aren't many jobs.


sure there are. Government workers.


of course, that's from the well known right leaning CBS news, so you can ignore that if you want.

well, job wise, I don't know about primary jobs, of course. Each person has their own skill and training that they have. I have been fortunate enough to turn my associate degree into a pretty good gig by hard work and loyalty. I do like to have a few more things, so I have a second job - totally on line - I average just about 400 a month there, which pays for kids books and gifts and random toys (and the cost of my internet) after taxes. I do Mechanical turk, but other similar duties like Mahalo, ChaCha and others can supply the same extra need. and I am home doing it, so that's a plus.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

Caliban
Chipolata








Since: 18.5.02
From: Orlando

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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
Concerning filibusters, the part that bothers me is that you don't have to actually filibuster, it is good enough just to threaten it. If the Republicans (or Democrats for that matter) want to block something then they should be prepared to work for it.

But that's my problem with the Democrats in general. They're the majority party, but they don't act like it. They're so busy trying to look bipartisan and wanting to please everybody that they never stop to realize that losing elections have consequences and winning them means you decide those consequences.

I don't agree with many of the Republican viewpoints, but I do respect the fact that they're not afraid to look like dicks and hammer their legislation through when they're in power. I just wish the Dems would have been paying attention at the end of the 90s and taken a few notes.
Oliver
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Since: 20.6.02
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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.28
As an outsider looking in, I have a question: how close to the truth was Michael Moore's bit on American health care companies in his SICKO movie?

I don't understand how the American health insurance system works. Why can't the US adopt a system like ours here in Canada?








SAMURAI SENTAI SHINKENGER!
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.07
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Stagger, regarding children, in an ideal world (the term I believe I used) I agree with you. However, many children do not receive the care they need because their parents can't or wont take proper care of them. I leave in a small town of 1100 with a school district of 350 students. Over 2/3 qualify for free or reduced lunches. Many come from families of three or more siblings. Even if the parents want to, due to cost most can't afford insurance and rely on the county health department and/or Medicaid. I know you don't want these kids not to receive proper medical attention. We as a society have a responsibility to these children.



I live in a pretty poor area as well. Lost a lot of manufacturing jobs, and there is about 16% unemployment. Before that, it was still a poor area, so I know what you're talking about.
When it comes down to it, if they are eligible for medicare, or care via the county, then we need to fund medicare better than we are (which isn't happening with this bill) and the states need to fund the counties better. That should come from either block grants from the Federal Govt, or through local sales taxes, or consumption taxes. I don't think that creating a huge federal problem. We both want the same thing, but I think it should be handled at a local level, and not a federal level.

And Amos, no I was NOT one of those who were okay with the Patriot Act, in it's entirety. I had no problem with the intercept of phone calls FROM TERRORIST COUNTRIES into ours, and listening in. But, the rest of it, yes, I pretty much felt the government was overreaching it's bounds. But when I read blogs from left leaning types, they were more or less up in arms about the Patriot Act, yet are demonizing those who disagree with this health care grab.
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.07
    Originally posted by Oliver
    As an outsider looking in, I have a question: how close to the truth was Michael Moore's bit on American health care companies in his SICKO movie?

    I don't understand how the American health insurance system works. Why can't the US adopt a system like ours here in Canada?

1) never saw SICKO, because Michael Moore is an asshole.

Why don't we have a system like in Canada? Because we have what, 20 times the amount of people, and are already broke as a nation. Can't afford it.
KJames199
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Since: 10.12.01
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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.06
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Why don't we have a system like in Canada? Because we have what, 20 times the amount of people and are already broke as a nation.
Wouldn't having 20 times the population imply that you have 20 times the amount of taxpayers?
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I had no problem with the intercept of phone calls FROM TERRORIST COUNTRIES
This right here is absolutely fascinating.
    Originally posted by Oliver
    As an outsider looking in, I have a question: how close to the truth was Michael Moore's bit on American health care companies in his SICKO movie?
Not that I want to appear to support the current American system in any way, but given Moore's unwillingness to portray any of the downsides to the Canadian health care system (primarily, long wait times for non-urgent treatment), I think its best to take everything he says with a grain of salt. He's entertaining first and educating second. (To what degree he does either is up to you.)



JK: LJ, FB, T
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.07
No, 20 times the people doesn't mean 20 times the tax payers, especially when you factor in the elderly who do not work, the children who do not work, and the "working poor" who end up paying no taxes. And, like I said before, we are already broke, as a nation, spending MORE money is not prudent.
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.04
    Originally posted by Oliver
    As an outsider looking in, I have a question: how close to the truth was Michael Moore's bit on American health care companies in his SICKO movie?

    I don't understand how the American health insurance system works. Why can't the US adopt a system like ours here in Canada?


He was right in the sense that American health insurance companies are for-profit businesses and they report to their share-holders, not the people they cover.

Their first responsibility is maximizing profit and minimizing spending. You can't make profit by actually paying out claims so they try to pay out as few as possible. That's why they don't want to cover anyone with a pre-existing condition. They only want to cover healthy people. They just keep paying into the system and make very little claims against it.

It would be totally oversimplifying it, but I think alot could be fixed if the Fed just forced the entire industry to operate as non-profits. Many detractors would just bring up the Canadian (or British) system and proclaim we will "die in the streets" because coverage is being "rationed" and have to use the "substandard" drugs they have.

I would love to see a health care industry that actually made their priority helping people instead of pumping up executive pay and/or stock prices.

WTOP radio was commenting yesterday that most European systems limit the salaries of doctors, and limit the cost of drugs, so that keeps the prices of health care down. We would have to go that route but then Republicans and lobbyist groups' heads would all explode because we would be going the dirty "S" word. Socialism.


(edited by Zeruel on 22.12.09 1332)


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KJames199
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Since: 10.12.01
From: #yqr

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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.06
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    No, 20 times the people doesn't mean 20 times the tax payers, especially when you factor in the elderly who do not work, the children who do not work, and the "working poor" who end up paying no taxes.
We have elderly people, children, and the working poor too! Seriously, explain to me why Canada and America would have significantly different ratios of taxpayers to elderly to children to the working poor.



JK: LJ, FB, T
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.57
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    No, 20 times the people doesn't mean 20 times the tax payers, especially when you factor in the elderly who do not work, the children who do not work, and the "working poor" who end up paying no taxes. And, like I said before, we are already broke, as a nation, spending MORE money is not prudent.


Canada is notorious for being entirely composed of 30-year-old individuals that are all making $60K/year.



It is the policy of the documentary crew to remain true observers and not interfere with its subjects.

It's too soon to talk about the Riders...
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You crack me up OFB- because I am intelligent enough to form an opinion and to back it up, and you disagree with it, then I am one of those too dumb to vote... The lack of logic astounds me :). This is why I get so frustrated talking to you people!
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