Did anyone else raise an eyebrow when Shawn Michaels said he was in the first ladder match ever? I squirmed myself. The ladder match was invented in Stu Hart's Stampede Wrestling as a way to show off Dynamite Kid's skills. The first ladder match was Dynamite Kid vs. Bret Hart! Could this be another backhanded comment about Bret Hart by the WWE?
Are you ready for Mahkan-mania to run wild all over you?
Maybe by Shawn, but J.R. did later say "The First Major Ladder match in the WWE..." so I don't think it's intentional. Though to most fans, that WAS the first ladder match. Just like there'd been other "Iron Man Matches", but to many fans, the first one was Brett/Shawn.
It's a matter of Kayfabe, really.
Since everyone else is doing it (ok, not EVERYONE, but...)
Vikings (2-7) - I don't know. I didn't see it. Just saw that we lost. Badgers (6-5) - Slipping into mediocrity six weeks in a row. Buffy 7.Uhh Whatever this last one was earns a 7.00000314159 because the begining was terrible, but the meat of the episode was hillarious. But filler. Just like most of Season One...Is this some kind of whacky time warp?
I haven't seen it. I know Scott Keith has and that there was a post here a few weeks ago from a guy who was in the arena for the match. The thing I noticed was that JR said Shawn won the first Ladder Match (referring to the Ramon one). I assume JR just made a slip, though. As much as we like to bash Jr and Lawler (and sometimes, deservedly so), I imagine it must be very stressful commentating on something live.
You guys forgot how the WWF's history books work. History begins and ends with the WWF (WWE). Therefore the first ladder match EVER was between Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels because that was the first one in the WWF. If they had never done a 2 out of 3 falls match, and then did one tonight, THAT would be the first 2 out of 3 falls match ever as far as they're concerned.
ps. The Hart/Michaels match was great. Not a spotfest at ALL. It was a LOT like the one Benoit and Jericho had at the Royal Rumble.
Vanilla Sky-The main issue I have with the Iron Man match between Bret and Shawn is that personal behind-the-scenes stuff ruined what should have been a better match. They really didn't want to have them exchanging falls, because of their hateful relationship, and so they didn't exchange any for the whole hour. That's fine, but what's the point? Why even make it an Iron Man Match if you are not going to take even the slightest advantage of the stipulation, being that whoever has the most falls in the given hour is the winner. At the end of the hour, no one had a fall. Then, in overtime (a portion of the match that is not subject to the marathon stipulations), the title changes hands. Well thanks but why then not just have a normal one-fall match between the two, and have it go an hour? Or better yet, 45 minutes, so the first 20 minutes of the match wouldn't have to have been rest holds. That's like a ladder match where no one climbs a ladder or uses it. Or a strap match where no one uses the strap. Pointless. Other than that philosophical difference, it was a very good match, sometimes a great match. The last half-hour was a clinic.
Who pissed in your cornflakes? Oh, wait. It was me. My apologies.
I definitely think that match should have ended in overtime, but I also there should have been some decisions in the body of the match. For me, it just makes sense that Michaels should have dropped one or two falls to Bret, building drama to his eventual victory.
This should have been the first sign to Vince that Michaels was bad for business and not willing to play ball. Can you imagine how different things would be today if Vince had killed Shawn's push and never given him the belt (or, as Bret had wanted, given the belt to Deisel)?
Originally posted by joecollinsThis should have been the first sign to Vince that Michaels was bad for business and not willing to play ball. Can you imagine how different things would be today if Vince had killed Shawn's push and never given him the belt (or, as Bret had wanted, given the belt to Deisel)?
First, business was already BAD at the time. Second, Nash was well on his way to WCW by the time WM 12 rolled around. Third, Shawn had been a pain in the ass backstage long before his title run. And Hogan's My Dad, I'm pretty sure all the backstage "heat" between the two really didn't kick into high gear until Bret's return in 10/96. I could be wrong, (and to be honest, I really don't care all that much) but I thought that's what I've read. No big deal either way, but I'm not sure how much effect their relationship had on the match itself.
Actually, looking back, I liked the no-falls in 60 minutes thing. It made the match even more epic, showing how equal the two really were. They were so good that nobody would blink. I liked it. Plus...you expected some falls to happen, so every time somebody went for a pin, you'd expect one of them to go to 3, but they never did. It added to the suspense.
I don't think that the match did much to strengthen their relationship, I think we can surmise that.
As much of a mark for Bret as I am, I think that we can all admit that we shouldn't paint the shortcomings of the Iron Man match as a one-sided affair that falls completely on Shawn's shoulders. Bret was annoyed going into the match since he was being treated as a transitional champ. He had gotten the belt from Nash and knew in advance he'd be jobbing it to Shawn. He was unhappy with how he was being treated at that point and that's why he decided to take six months off after the match. I doubt that he wanted to drop any falls in the match, as jobbing was making him look weak as it was. He was also promised the job back from Shawn at WM13 which never occured due to the loss of smile and some really obnoxious comments on Shawn's part that lead to the deterioration of whatever type of relationship they did have. Bret's selling is pretty oddball in the match too, as Shawn would work on a body part of his for a good 5 to 10 minutes and then Bret would just stop selling it. I can't say the same for Shawn, as his selling is great throughout the match. All in all though, it is a great match.
The ladder match is great too, but nowhere near the spotfests we're accustomed too or the brutal Jericho/Benoit match. It's a cool look back at an early attempt at what would become pretty commonplace. Not alot of people have seen it since it's on one of the old Coliseum comp tapes. I can't remember offhand which. In WWE revisionist history, they'll go with whatever has had the most viewership and what they themselves refer to the most, and that'd be Shawn/Razor at WM10. Who knows if they even remember the Bret/Shawn match at this point?
They gotta bring these back!!!: "talk to the hand because the man don't understand." - "The Crippler" Chris Benoit "...and that is the LAST WORD." - "The Big Nasty" Paul Wight and of course: "Don't hate the playa...HATE THE GAME~!" - WCW World Champion Booker T
I've never really had a problem with the WWF only acknowledging its own history. It's when it starts to change and revise its own history that they commit a crime.
Bret beat Michaels in the first WWF ladder match, Ramon beat Michaels in the second. It wasn't until the third one with Ramon that Michaels finally won. Mainly because he had momentum and there were no Respected Lockerroom Leaders to kill it at the time.
Originally posted by asteroidboyI've got a copy of the Bret/Shawn ladder match. Mine's on a collesium comp called, "Most Unusual Matches." And trust me, the ladder match is the only thing worth seeing there.
Not a bad match, but it's very different. Looks very realistic, like two guys would do if they really had to climb a ladder in a shoot match.
One question, someone mentioned that everyone "knew" that HBK was gonna win the belt at Mania XII. How come? Internet reports?
1. Bret's contract was expiring soon after Mania. 2. They shoved the boyhood dream crap down everyone's throat from the time Shawn came back after being attacked by 4,583,987,239 people in Syracuse. Now, Shawn did hold his own in the fight, until a midget sucker punched him. From that point on it was pretty obvious Shawn was going to be getting the belt.
I want you to know, I agree with everything I've just said.
Originally posted by HrdCoreJoeI stand by my statement, thank you very much.
LOL! I tried to warn you. If you're really interested in seeing it, it's on the Great American Bash '87 tape. It's actually a good tape with both of the first 2 WarGames matches, a pretty good Rock & Roll Express vs. Midnight Express match, and a decent Nikita Koloff vs. Lex Luger cage match for the US Title. That Blanchard vs. Rhodes ladder match (they also had barbed wire around the ropes) was terrible.
Hey what's up! With your interest in this topic, you might also be interested in reading this earlier discussion. But that stigmatized thread title would seem to indicate that this one is to become Survivor Series Card Thread Prime.