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23.9.14 0737
The W - Pro Wrestling - The Fingerpoke of Doom: 15 years later
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It's False
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Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.55


"This is what pro wrestling -- what World Championship Wrestling is all about!"
-Tony Schiavone

Talk about one of the most unintentionally hilarious lines ever, in retrospect.

Yes, 15 years ago, one of the angles that (in my opinion) directly led to the end of WCW, as it was the perfect storm of utter crap: The Fingerpoke of Doom. I remember watching this in high school and feeling devastated that WCW was giving Hogan EVEN MORE TIME at the top (when I was convinced he was retired) at the expense of Goldberg, while also sprinkling in a nonsensical Lex Luger heel turn.

The follow-up was even worse, as Goldberg never even got any sort of comeuppance, as Hogan went on to feud with Ric Flair, where they did a double turn...for some reason. Goldberg never even registered as a blip in the world title radar again until the Russo Era, which was a whole different set of problems in itself.

We celebrate today, on The W, the way only we can: through the words of our benevolent dictator.

---------------

From CRZ's Nitro recap: 1.4.99:

BIG POOCHIE (with Scott Hall) v. YOU KNOW WHO (with Superstar Scott Steiner) for the WCW World Heavyweight Championship - "Goldberg" chant is pretty loud. Tony tells us how live they is (except, of course, on my coast). Nash with a Hogan-esque T-shirt rip. Come to think of it, when was the last time Hogan wrestled in a top? Is this the feeling out process? Ho hum. Referee is Billy Silverman. I can't think of anything else to kill time here. If they're chanting "Hogan sucks," they must have turned down the crowd noise. One minute since the bell rang. Nash shoves Hogan back into the corner, crowd pops. Now into overtime. Hogan tries to punch - now, gingerly taps him in the pec - Nash drops like a ton of bricks. Hogan covers - 1, 2, 3????? (1:41) Ladies and gentlemen, we have a new World Heavyweight Champion. Bischoff finally breaks his silence to congratulate the NEW World Champ as we see the cop car arrive in the back, Goldberg gets out, rushes the ring, takes out Steiner, Hall, Nash, and finally Hogan gets him with the belt and now he's raining down punches on him. Whip, reverse, spear. LEX LUGER is out (hmmm), holy crap! He ATTACKS Goldberg! Bischoff: "Oh my goodness! How can this be?" Luger racks him. Looks like Luger has jumped to - to - well, where are we now? LIZ is out. Hall has his taser again - it really needs Da Mountie's sound effect but I'll let it go. Bischoff can't be stopped from talking now. BUFF BAGWELL is out. Spraypaint cans are out. "NWO 4 Life" spraypainted in red, his head spraypainted black and red. The WCW title is spraypainted red - "NWO" - one more time. And we're gone.

Fans, as Hollywood Hogan stands in the centre of the ring and you look at forty thousand plus on hand, if you even THOUGHT about changing the channel to our competition, fans, please do, because I understand that Hollywood Hogan, who wrestled there one time as Hulk Hogan, is gonna win the World title - hoh! That's gonna put some butts in the seats, hyeh. I mean - that's gonna be their World Champion - ha, ha!


---------------

How do you remember this day in wrestling history?

(edited by It's False on 5.1.14 2156)


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BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.82
Goldberg losing the title like he did seemed far worse to me. At the time I didn't think they would blow off Goldberg for good just to keep a few egos inflated, but with no oversight that is what they did. It's amazing the damage this did to the company, but I suppose it was rotting on the inside long before we got here.

On a side note I really enjoyed the fingerpoke when Michaels and Helmsley did it for the Euro(?) Title, but that was far different stakes.

(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 5.1.14 2249)
Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.52
You know, this is the kinda shit that I loved watching wrestling for. This is what wrestling should be, to me. Larger than life characters making asses of themselves for my enjoyment.

Granted, I can enjoy a 15 minute cruiser weight match between Jushin Thunder Liger and Ultimo Dragon or a Shawn Michaels Vs. Bret Hart epic battle, but give me the insanity of Goldberg losing by cattle prod and the Fingerpoke of Doom as well. You need the stories that are batshit crazy to keep the interest of the casual fan who wants to be entertained by mindlessness.

I don't think this 'hurt' WCW at all. All you 'workrate' people can bitch all you want, but when it's all said and done, wrestling is and always will be a scripted television show with characters that need story lines driving what they do. It's a male oriented soap opera.

How is this any different than if Hogan and Nash went out there and had a 15-20 minute match and Hogan still wins the belt and they shake hands afterwards in mutual respect? How about if Nash had beaten Goldberg clean instead of with Hall's cattle prod?

Look at what was happening back then compared to what's happening today. It's actually worse now for most of you. IWC favorite Daniel Bryan goes through months in the main events of Raw after Raw, PPV after PPV, all to shuffled back down and is now in a heel group, CM Punk is lost in the shuffle somewhere, and Randy Orton and John Cena are headlining all the events. John Cena is Hulk Hogan... right? I can't tell anymore, you guys complain about so much, it's hard to tell if you even like wrestling at all.

Hey, you know, if you want to just see straight wrestling, why not watch Ring of Honor? They're supposed to be all about the workrate and athleticism, right? Yeah, I think that's right. Interesting, because I can't even remember the last time someone started a ROH thread here.

And another thing, how many viewers watched this Nitro? What was the weekly average viewers then, compared to now? You say this was crap, but I'm sure more people were watching this crap then were watching RAW back then AND watching it now. I'd even wager that more people watched this event then the total viewers ROH gets in a year.

I'm rambling, ain't I. The point of all this is that wrestling hasn't evolved very much in 15 years and we're still seeing the same crap now as we were then and it ain't gonna change. There are alternatives, like TNA and ROH, but you don't watch them. Keep complaining, but nothing is gonna happen cause the people running the business don't care what you think. Business as usual.



Forget it Josh... it's Cerebustown.
dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.90
The issue wasn't that they gave us a short match or anything.
It's simply that despite having Goldberg (who was a hot commodity then) and despite having several logical (yet still over the top) storylines, they went for doing what nobody wanted to see and that's giving the title back to Hollywood Hogan.

Yes, it's not unlike WWE putting Daniel Bryan in a heel group and continueing with a match between Orton and Cena.

The difference however is that there are people that want to see Cena (and probably Orton too) fighting for the title.
Everyone was sick & tired of the NWO and Hogan at that point.
That's why people point to the fingerpoke as one of the final nails in the coffin, where as Bryan being forced to join the Wyatts (btw, speak of larger than life characters) might be annoying for us, his fans, but definitely isn't the final blow.


Rudoublesedoublel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Kentucky - Home of the 8 time NCAA Champ Wildcats

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
I always wanted to see a "match" like that one, just in a different circumstance.

I remember guys being stripped of titles because they "didn't defend the belt within 30 days". I always wondered why someone didn't get a friend to have a fraud match with on day 29 to keep their title.

This was a great heel move - it was just done by the wrong guys and over the wrong belt (you should always keep the illusion that your biggest title is important).



Eight ain't enough.
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.94
    Originally posted by Cerebus
    I don't think this 'hurt' WCW at all.


I think WCW's corpse would disagree with this statement.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.85
I think WCW was hampered more by Goldberg almost bleeding to death after punching a car window. He was out for a while. His heel turn didn't help either.

Bad judgment abounded.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Spiraling_Shape
Bratwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: PA

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
Its legacy spans the cosmos!

Here's the Finger Poke Of Doom referenced in the opening page of Young Avengers #13 from a few months ago:

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/young-avengers-13-yamblr.jpg
1bettingedge
Chaurice








Since: 23.12.11
From: UK

Since last post: 259 days
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#9 Posted on
It's not so much that it wasn't a 5 star match or the fact fans were sick of Hogan because Hogan had been off tv for 2 months at that point to run for fake presidency, so when he came back, he was somewhat fresh again. The issue was that WCW had a sold arena of 40,000 fans and they expected a PPV caliber main event and by doing that they never managed to sell out that arena again. Not to mention the long term effects of doing the angle, like devaluing the world title belt and Goldberg's streak all in one.

And as such with WCW, they had no long term planning. So Hogan wins the title in a big angle then loses it 2 months later, Nash goes back to the midcard and feuds with Rey Jr despite being the guy that ended Goldberg's streak, Luger inexplicably turns heel, nWo A-Team pretty much disbands soon after.

Now if they did this; Hogan beats Nash in a straight up match with interference from the nWo, Nash later joins the nWo because he feels if he can't beat them he'll join them and then they do a big year long angle with Goldberg taking out nWo members one by one before having a big showdown with Hogan at that year's Starrcade, that would have worked.

(edited by 1bettingedge on 6.1.14 0947)

(edited by 1bettingedge on 6.1.14 0947)

Check out the best of CM Punk's/Johnny Polo/Jerry Lawler commentary here http://www.youtube.com/​​​user/​​​1bettingedge
thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.35

    And another thing, how many viewers watched this Nitro? What was the weekly average viewers then, compared to now?


a thing we can look up

    Originally posted by TWNPnews

    1/4/99 4.9 <- finger poke
    1/11/99 5.0
    1/18/99 4.4
    1/25/99 5.0
    2/1/99 4.7
    2/8/99 5.7 <- !!!
    2/15/99 3.9
    2/22/99 4.8
    3/1/99 4.3
    (never gets above 4.4 again, almost never gets above a 4 after May)



Nielsen points were worth around 1 million viewers at this point. It's a little bit more now.


    How is this any different than if Hogan and Nash went out there and had a 15-20 minute match and Hogan still wins the belt and they shake hands afterwards in mutual respect?


I think you misunderstood the issue or the context. The problem wasn't the content of the matct, the problem was beating a dead horse. The nWo angle had run of steam out of the year, having gone nowhere for a long time. Putting back the original group did not feel like a return to the glory days, but a return to all the nWo guys hogging the spotlight. This was the sign they had run out of ideas.

There was also the bit about booker Kevin Nash getting to end the Goldberg streak - the best draw WCW had at that time - for no real payoff. He gets himself out of losing the title in any meaningful way, when titles were still supposed to be won and lost in meaningful ways. Nash has generally disowned everything that went on in this period (it was all booked by a ghost), but he was a guy generally disliked by smart fans for his political manuevering pulling off the best move yet. I think the fans on the internet were more passionate about who was holding down who than they are even now. Maybe we have more ironic detachment from the product and would be more sarcastically congratulating him for pulling it off.

(This was also the return of Hogan and his baggage, after he'd spent months away pretending to be retired and running for president, which was a thing people really believed somehow? Like Cena, being away for a couple months but being brought up frequently wasn't really enough to make him feel fresh.)

For the Goldebrg fans, this was also the quick end of his era as champion. BigDaddyLoco is right, he was never were the same again. It seems a little absurd nowadays, in the light of how quick some people wanted WWE to move on past Ryback squashing dudes, but Goldberg just running thru fools would've probably kept working for a few months. Instead, there really wasn't a plan past this part. WCW did not have a good grip on how to use Goldberg after his first loss. Going thru the nWo guys would've worked and probably was the plan at one point, but it never really happened and they moved onto DDP as champion.

RAW was heavy on the soap opera (and not really on the good matches) at that point. That's why everyone was thrilled with Mankind winning the title over on the other channel. (Bischoff ordering Tony to reveal that finish and belittle Foley made it easier to be annoyed with WCW. That wasn't WCW's biggest mistake ever but one of the first ones they'd change if they had a chance.)

It was also a lame payoff to a confusing three hour storyline about Goldberg being a sexual harrasser. Again, it wasn't the soap opera that was the problem but the quality of the soap opera.

I don't think this came off exactly as they'd like. What I've learned since, somewhat thanks to being required to listen to Konnan's podcast every week, is the nWo Hogan and nWo Nash groups had serious issues with each other and I think we were supposed to be blown away that such hated rivals were on the same page all along. It never came across that way, because WCW didn't really do the Wolfpack/Black & White feud at a high level. Most of it was just sniping in promos because they did have those serious issues and probably couldn't work out finishes to matches so Hall vs Hogan or Nash vs Hogan didn't happen like they should. (Hall was busy being drunk on TV and fake drunk on TV during the previous few months, which didn't help.) Those guys believed it was a heated issue because it was heated to them, but they had trouble explaining it to the fans.

My feeling is WCW was still salvagable up thru the gap people in fall '99 after Bischoff left and before Russo came in. Sting & Luger vs Benoit and others felt like a great shake up to the status quo; they may have not been stars on the level of the other guys, but it didn't feel like spinning wheels. Russo wanted to do the same thing but was both so overwhelming and so overwhelmed that the product nosedived. It was an entire show built around crazy things happening, Cerebus, and it did not do so well.

(The problem wasn't Russo, but the people who hired him for a one position higher than he was ready, and didn't give him the checks and restraints he needed - there was no way he was ever going to get the power he was promised in WCW given the other egos involved; if he understood what he was actually getting in to, maybe he would've spent less time turning his freakouts into scripts.)



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SKLOKAZOID
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Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.45
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    I think WCW was hampered more by Goldberg almost bleeding to death after punching a car window. He was out for a while. His heel turn didn't help either.

    Bad judgment abounded.


Goldberg punching the car window was 2000. The fingerpoke was 1999. It gets confusing because they basically did the exact same angle two years in a row, but what happened in 1999 was that Goldberg was still around feuding with Hall and Nash, then took time off to make Universal Soldier: The Return.

Goldberg, while clearly WCW's top star, was dead in the water by 2000. Like everyone surrounding him.


And yeah, the fingerpoke of doom was dumb from every conceivable standpoint. It has nothing to do with whether or not it was great wrestling. It was primarily A) Hogan as champion was a terrible idea after 1998. Once he lost to Sting and Goldberg, fans wanted to see the belts on guys like them (and Hart, and even Nash to some extent) and Bischoff put the belt back on Hogan every single time he had a ratings panic. He probably still thinks that "Hulk Hogan: World Champion" is a good idea in 2014.

Also, B) from a storyline standpoint, to make your most important belt something that Nash would fight for months to have over Hogan to establish the Wolfpack as superior, and then just hand it back to him made absolutely no sense. Why the sudden change in character? They never really explained that well. Luger turning heel was also equally nonsensically hilarious and completely unecessary.

Who cares about the wrestling? Whenever the WWF has done a similar storyline (ie HHH/HBK), it's been done because the wrestler holding the title knew he wasn't capable of defending the title and had to get rid of it. HBK was already WWF Champion, so being the European champion was an added burden to him. And when Vince just dropped the WWF Title after beating HHH, it was because he was the owner of the company and not an active competitor, so there was no reason to hold it.

Dr Unlikely
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Since: 2.1.02

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.31
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    I think you misunderstood the issue or the context. The problem wasn't the content of the matct, the problem was beating a dead horse. The nWo angle had run of steam out of the year, having gone nowhere for a long time. Putting back the original group did not feel like a return to the glory days, but a return to all the nWo guys hogging the spotlight. This was the sign they had run out of ideas.
Yeah, this was January 1999. Hogan vs. Sting at Starrcade was December 1997. The entire year in between should have been Sting finishing the job and beating Nash and finally Hall (working through the nWo leadership in reverse order of debut) to end the angle once and for all, while simultaneously setting up the newly-arrived Bret Hart and Goldberg as the next big storylines moving forward. Instead, they blow the Sting/Hogan payoff, immediately blow it with Hart and a year later, Goldberg has become GOLDBERG and already lost to...the newly-reformed, never actually defeated nWo.

    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    There was also the bit about booker Kevin Nash getting to end the Goldberg streak - the best draw WCW had at that time - for no real payoff. He gets himself out of losing the title in any meaningful way, when titles were still supposed to be won and lost in meaningful ways. Nash has generally disowned everything that went on in this period (it was all booked by a ghost), but he was a guy generally disliked by smart fans for his political manuevering pulling off the best move yet.
It's probably not surprising given their closeness, but Nash and HHH share the same fatal booking/character development flaw: neither is/was ever willing to get their comeuppance when it mattered. HHH borrowed a lot from the Nash playbook (DX did the cute "two members of DX are in the ring together and one tries to let the other one pin him" move shortly after the Outsiders did the same), but the go-to move for both is to build themselves up huge as a heel and then turn face instead right when it's time for the big loss, then switch back to heel when it's time to put over a new dominant heel, and eventually lose a big match a few months/years after you've lost everyone.
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.31
I will go cosign Dr. Unlikey's Nash/HHH booking. That is why I have no illusion that the Authority angle is going to end with HHH coming out looking like a loser. The worst part of the Finger Poke of Doom is what was going on Raw. After stupidly saying Foley is going to win the title which probably got a bigger turn out than usual.

WWE had a ton of their stoylines continue or conclude. HBK being DX's best buddies after fucking them over ends with a bloody Shawn Michaels being destroyed the Corporation thanks to DX fucking them over. Shawn won't be seen for a long time. Foley beats Rock after a returning Steve Austin, probably the biggest Raw pop of all time, makes the save giving Foley the title. Foley make a beautiful speech about his kids. If you ever want to know how I would end Raw or the WWF at that time in general, there you go. Steve Austin makes a man that is way more unconventional champion which was Vince's massive problem with Steve. The Rock gets his just deserts for screwing over the fans and Foley at Survivor Series. DX is seen as the army of the people and the Corporation loses the biggest prize in the game. It is picture perfect.

On Nitro, a washed up Hulk Hogan is handled the title for no reason. They demystify their biggest star in Goldberg by ending the Streak and then having the NWO beat the shit out of him while all the so-called cool villains are smiling on. An ending seen a 100 times on the show and one of the biggest problems with Nitro since the NWO started. It is a colossal mistake.

I am sure the ratings where high the next week then you can see them go high and eventually bottom out when the fans realize there is no payoff for this. Goldberg will not mow down the NWO to get to Hogan, beat him and be the world champ. He is just another victim of the NWO look all of the WCW roter. The Finger Poke of Doom was beginning of the end for WCW. I do agree they fucked the ting/NWO storyline, but Goldberg saved them. It should saved them til at least 2001, but instead the ghost that was booking during this time made such damage that it was unrepairable.

(edited by lotjx on 6.1.14 1232)


The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
I Breastfeed John Madden
Head cheese








Since: 13.4.04
From: Des Moines, IA

Since last post: 148 days
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
How come the whole "fans throwing soda and trash in the ring" thing never caught on in WWF?

Tight black shirt pony-tail guy > Doug Dillinger, obvs.
Hokienautic
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.84
    Originally posted by I Breastfeed John Madden
    How come the whole "fans throwing soda and trash in the ring" thing never caught on in WWF?


Because WWF didn't market as strongly to drunk, inbred, southern rednecks as much as WCW did? [TIC]
SchippeWreck
Banger








Since: 26.3.03
From: Glendale, CA

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.86
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by I Breastfeed John Madden
      How come the whole "fans throwing soda and trash in the ring" thing never caught on in WWF?


    Because WWF didn't market as strongly to drunk, inbred, southern rednecks as much as WCW did? [TIC]

Tighter venue security?
No angle really worthy of having trash thrown at it?



"It's magic! We don't need to explain it!"
thecubsfan
Scrapple
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 2 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.35
IIRC, there was at least one time where WCW encouraged garbage throwing - it might have even been plants throwing stuff. They generally seemed to like how it looked more than WWF.

(edited by thecubsfan on 6.1.14 1439)


thecubsfan.com - luchablog
CTX
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Since: 11.5.02

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.38
I concur with the sentiment the angle wouldn't have been half as bad had they actually followed it up properly (or at all). Sure it didn't really make a whole lot of sense if you thought about it too much but the angle itself was extremely heated and could have breathed a bit of life back into the nWo had they ditched all the fat and stuck with a smaller elite group. Instead Goldberg never really got another look in and we were still stuck with multiple nWo's. It really did cut the balls off Goldberg at a time when he should have been the figurehead of the whole company.



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Since: 7.2.02

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
    Originally posted by Cerebus
    Keep complaining, but nothing is gonna happen cause the people running the business don't care what you think. Business as usual.


The philosophy of every once successful company that is now no longer in business.

And I'd like to point out that not everyone complains. Some of us just quit watching RAW/Smackdown, quit buying PPVs, quit buying video games, quit buying DVD sets, etc, etc.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.97
    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
      Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      I think WCW was hampered more by Goldberg almost bleeding to death after punching a car window. He was out for a while. His heel turn didn't help either.

      Bad judgment abounded.


    Goldberg punching the car window was 2000. The fingerpoke was 1999. It gets confusing because they basically did the exact same angle two years in a row, but what happened in 1999 was that Goldberg was still around feuding with Hall and Nash, then took time off to make Universal Soldier: The Return.


It even confuses Nash, who will explain that this angle was done entirely for Goldberg's benefit to give him a heel machine to run through with vengeance all the way back to Hogan, but it went wrong because Goldberg punched the window. Here I figured Hall would've been the one who'd blacked out all of 1999. What the Big Sexecutioner apparently meant was "Hogan turns babyface in two months while Goldberg wrestles Bam Bam Bigelow."

One of the nuances of what made that night such an eyeroller was it was the week after Flair beat Bischoff to become president of Turner Broadcasting or something, a match that was booked like an nWo blowoff with the Horsemen, Wolfpack, DDP, and Randy Savage all running in to counter interference and help end the reign of Bischoff.

Book a Starrcade '98 where Flair puts his career up against Bischoff's presidency and Goldberg beats Hogan for the title (after pinning him in a marquee tag match with Karl Malone and Dennis Rodman in the summer, then winning World War 3, maybe finding time to jackhammer Jericho in a PPV U.S. title match in between), and you've got a bigger show than Starrcade '97. Perhaps even have Rey successfully defend his mask against Bischoff's hair if we're bringing complete avenging justice to Atlanta.


    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    I don't think this came off exactly as they'd like. What I've learned since, somewhat thanks to being required to listen to Konnan's podcast every week, is the nWo Hogan and nWo Nash groups had serious issues with each other and I think we were supposed to be blown away that such hated rivals were on the same page all along. It never came across that way, because WCW didn't really do the Wolfpack/Black & White feud at a high level. Most of it was just sniping in promos because they did have those serious issues and probably couldn't work out finishes to matches so Hall vs Hogan or Nash vs Hogan didn't happen like they should. (Hall was busy being drunk on TV and fake drunk on TV during the previous few months, which didn't help.) Those guys believed it was a heated issue because it was heated to them, but they had trouble explaining it to the fans.


Yeah, it was so politically touchy they couldn't even get the sides right, let alone do any real Wolfpack vs. Hollywood matches. You think nWo breakup, you think of Hall and Nash as babyfaces (with Konnan as an ersatz X-Pac [or "K-Pax"]) against Hogan and Savage. Instead, Hogan put Savage in the Wolfpack and Hall with him so Hall and Nash couldn't be too cool (or too sweet) together and he could just feud with Savage instead of Nash.

So yeah, Nash and Hogan ending up together was an incredible twist ... on "THE BOYS," who had been led to believe that new booker Nash had forced out his political rival Hogan, who retreated to do the president thing.


    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    the go-to move for both is to build themselves up huge as a heel and then turn face instead right when it's time for the big loss, then switch back to heel when it's time to put over a new dominant heel, and eventually lose a big match a few months/years after you've lost everyone.


As much as "Austin's heel turn killed the wrestling boom" is a (correct) talking point, it's really Hunter's darn fault because of everything you said. They'd booked to go right into face HHH vs. heel Austin as the post-Mania feud while Rock was gone, going so far as to put heel HHH over face Austin clean a month before he main evented Wrestlemania, giving HHH ... revenge? ... for running over Austin with a car. But instead HHH decided he didn't want to turn and feud with Austin until after Rock did, because the first face who went against Austin would have to put him over to build him up for Rock's return. Instead, Austin & HHH vs. unprepared midcard babyfaces, and the rating dropped from a 5 to a 4 in two months.

So you'd think he'd be dead to rights in this match with Punk when he'll be up against Vince McMahon for control of the company. But Roman Reigns might have to spear him at the end first.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 6.1.14 2001)
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I saw the Pre-Rumble showing. What surprised me was his cockiness and anger all up through college. With his wrestling, he's always seemed like the guy who'll put anyone over, the "good for the business" guy.
- Mr. Boffo, Driven: The Rock (2003)
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