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The W - Baseball - The DH; Is it good or bad?
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The Game
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Since: 5.5.09

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.96
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100311&content_id=8764668&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

An article from mlb.com talks about the advantages of having a DH and how some others do not like it or how it changed the AL with more run production and perhaps an edge in the fall classic.

Thoughts and Analysis:
Both sides have interesting points; the only thing I wish is that the NL and AL would both have the same rules on this position.

Your thoughts, opinions and analysis on the pros and cons of having a DH and why or why not you like the position......
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Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
    Originally posted by The Game

    Thoughts and Analysis:
    Both sides have interesting points; the only thing I wish is that the NL and AL would both have the same rules on this position.


Everyone says this. I totally disagree.

The advantage of having the DH is that it extends the careers of guys who can't play the field anymore, and allows some week fielders to not have to deal with that aspect of the game.

The advantage of not having the DH is that traditional baseball strategy is kept alive, and that the pitcher who can hit--or at least handle the bat well for bunting and such--still has an advantage.

The current system allows for both advantages. Yes, it creates some difficulties for the World Series and interleague play, but on balance I find those problems worth it. As an NL guy, I don't ever want to see the NL get the DH. If it has to be all one or the other, I vote no-DH. (Ss they used to say in ancient Rome, Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.) But I think there are advantages to keeping the rule in the AL.
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.41
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
      Originally posted by The Game

      Thoughts and Analysis:
      Both sides have interesting points; the only thing I wish is that the NL and AL would both have the same rules on this position.


    The advantage of having the DH is that it extends the careers of guys who can't play the field anymore, and allows some week fielders to not have to deal with that aspect of the game.



I don't see how this is an advantage. Players that are weak in the field shouldn't be allowed to hide their lack of skills, that's a total little league move. Play defense or sit on the bench. I don't see extending people's career as an advantage either. If you can't play 20 years because you had to play in the field then tough.

I also don't see more runs as an advantage. 9 - 7 games are boring as hell. Give me more 2 - 1 games.

I do think it's pretty funny that a week ago or so people were talking like floating realignment was a possibility. If MLB has dragged their feet so long for things like Instant Replay and changing the DH rules because of "tradition" then floating realignment is NEVER going to happen



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.41
I'm not sure the AL dominance over the NL has anything to do with the DH. Look at the NFL, where there is no difference between the AFC and the NFC, yet the AFC has won 9 of the last 13 Super Bowls, and in the 80s and 90s, the NFC had won 13 straight at one point.

Obviously the DH does help extend the careers of some older players, but since there's a 25 man roster in both leagues, they're taking that spot in place of someone else. So is that really a benefit, giving a spot to an older player at the cost of another player?

On the other hand, I don't think much of the "strategy" argument either. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what to do in the NL. You have your starter pitch as long as he can (or you want him to), then you pinch hit for him. If you want to get sneaky, you can then pull a double switch. Anytime the relievers come up in the batting order, they are pinch hit for. That's about all the strategy I can think of.

Conversely, it seems some AL teams are much more strategic about their relief pitchers. I could be wrong but it seems you're more likely to see a LOOGY (leftie one-out guy) come in to face the best hitting left handed batter in the AL than your are in the same situation in the NL.

So I don't really care either way.
BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.39
I like the fact that one league has it and one league does not. I grew up an AL fan and a Mariner fan so I got to watch the greatest DH of all time Edgar Martinez do what he did best and better than a lot of guys in his era which was hit. If there was no DH we probably wouldn't have gotten nearly as much Edgar Martinez. When your DH turns out to be Carl Everett after that it kind of sucks having a DH.

That being said if MLB were to go all one way or the other I would rather there be no DH rather than all DH because the games would move along faster.

I think the system in place is here to stay. The union won't want to give up high paying jobs for vets and pure baseball fans would freak if there was all DH all the time.

DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
Leave things the way they are. If I would change one thing, it would be to eliminate interleague play. I enjoy some of the series but I loked the fact that they only saw each other when it mattered. But it makes too much money and people enjoy it.



Perception is reality
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.47
Add me to the list of people that like having different rules in the AL & NL. I like seeing both strategies applied. I like seeing pitchers go from the AL to the NL and have to adjust to hitting. I like seeing awesome hitters who otherwise would never see an at-bat play DH.

    Originally posted by DrDirt
    If I would change one thing, it would be to eliminate interleague play.


I completely understand your reasoning, but I love interleague play. The Tigers have only been to the Series twice in my lifetime and I'm glad to have been able to see some opponents I probably never would have otherwise.

Besides, the Tigers have owned the NL in interleague play in the last 4 seasons - they're something obscene, like .680, over that time. :)
JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    If I would change one thing, it would be to eliminate interleague play.


You mean "if I could change one thing right after I stop making the All-Star game decide home field advantage in the World Series...", right? Just alternate like they used to: one year the AL team is handicapped by having to have pitchers hit in four games, the other the NL is handicapped by having their ninth-best hitter match-up with the DH in four games.

I like it with the leagues different, but every sim-league I ever played in used the DH because we liked the fun of offense and of not having to explain double-switch and pinch-hitting rules to the guys who were less into baseball than we were. And unlike the Doc, I'd prefer MORE interleague play if we were going to mess with that.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
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AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.77
Guess I am a traditionalist. I hate the DH with everything I have. Crappy players like Edgar Martinez, who would never had had a full time job in real baseball, was a star playing half a game. Harold fricking Baines - I have nothing left to say.

Sure, some old 40 year old guy who can't run, but can still bat gets to play - like Yaz as an old guy or Baylor toward the end. But now guys just play that position. I hate hate hate it. Why not have a short fielder like in soft ball or play three balls and two strikes? Nothing else has changed the game but the american league game is a different sport. It's not really baseball as it was meant to be anymore. Pitchers don't play the whole game and one of the batters doesn't. It screws the pooch on strategy and gives the AL a lot of advantage in short games and short series. Did I mention I hate it?

Yeah, and I am against interleague play too. Plus, I wish we had the Umps separated by league again too. Because the game is so different between where they play baseball and then whatever that is in the american league.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    Crappy players like Edgar Martinez, who would never had had a full time job in real baseball, was a star playing half a game.


This actually isn't true. Edgar was a fine third baseman who probably who have made the Pujols-move to first. The problem is Edgar was getting hurt, so the M's decided it wasn't worth risking his bat and put him at DH.

From 1990-92 Edgar played 422 games. Out of those 422 games, he played 390 at third base. His OPS+ those three years were 132, 138, and 164. He hit .317 with 43 home runs and 174 RBI over those three seasons with an OBP of .402 and a SLG of .477.

Point being, you might say that about a lot of guys and be correct, but to say Edgar "would never had had a full time job in real baseball" is factually untrue.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
djp
Morcilla








Since: 16.2.07
From: 3rd Floor, NW window

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.57
The thing about the DH that I think gets overlooked is that the AL pitcher is allowed to be a little more brave as far as pitching inside goes. I think it used to create a more reckless pitcher who didn't really care one way or another if he happened to hit a batter here and there because it didn't affect him as a batter. You have a natural tendency as a pitcher to let one fly over a batter's head if you don't have to go up there and face the music.

But with the addition of Interleague Play and the way players switch leagues much more easily, it may not be the factor that it once was. Someone like Roger Clemens who played his entire career in the AL until the move to Houston only had to hit a handful of times during ILP or the World Series. I don't know if it can be attributed to this or not, but pitchers just don't throw inside the way they used to, particularly in the AL.
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.77
I never said Martinez couldn't hit, just that he wasn't a complete player. I was just checking his stats - he sure needed to move to 1st - he was a pretty marginal 3rd baseman. But he wouldn't be the first bad thirdbaseman to keep a job because he could hit a ton. (Sal Bando and Chipper Jones and Matt Williams come to mind). But no. In the american league, you don't have to play the complete game.

I probably overstated it when I said Crappy player - Edgar wasn't that, but he was a hitter only. His terrible numbers in the field ensured he would be a DH for life.

ah, Herb Washington, we hardly knew ye.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

MUTigermask
Boudin rouge








Since: 8.10.03
From: Columbia MO

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.12
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    On the other hand, I don't think much of the "strategy" argument either. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what to do in the NL. You have your starter pitch as long as he can (or you want him to), then you pinch hit for him. If you want to get sneaky, you can then pull a double switch. Anytime the relievers come up in the batting order, they are pinch hit for. That's about all the strategy I can think of.

    Conversely, it seems some AL teams are much more strategic about their relief pitchers. I could be wrong but it seems you're more likely to see a LOOGY (leftie one-out guy) come in to face the best hitting left handed batter in the AL than your are in the same situation in the NL.

    So I don't really care either way.


This is so wrong. While I do believe that the amount of strategy in NL baseball is a bit overstated by purists, there is so much more to how you use your pen in the NL than the AL. It's not just use your starter until he's done then bring in a pinch hitter when the reliever comes up. What if you're down by just a run in the late innings. Your starter is cruising but his spot comes up with a runner on. Do you take him out for a pinch-hitter to get offense going at the risk of taking out your starter who is shutting the other team down? An AL manager CAN just use his starter until he's done. Also AL managers don't have to worry about using up their relief corp or bench every time the they have to pinch-hit for the reliever in the case a close game goes into extra innings.

I guess I'm not a fan.
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    But he wouldn't be the first bad thirdbaseman to keep a job because he could hit a ton. (Sal Bando and Chipper Jones and Matt Williams come to mind). But no. In the american league, you don't have to play the complete game.


You can't tell what kind of third baseman someone is by looking at stats, in this or any era. And did you just decry all hit/no field third basemen as AL-only players by lumping in a guy who has played his entire career in the NL and a guy who played nearly his entire career in the NL?

Why not use Albert Pujols as an example? He played 89 games at third in 2001 and 2002 while committing 23 errors, a pretty ghastly ratio far worse than Edgar's worst season where had 27 errors in 143 games at third. (If we're looking at stats, that is.) I'm sure Pujols will be making the much-needed transition to the American League any day now.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.77
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    And did you just decry all hit/no field third basemen as AL-only players by lumping in a guy who has played his entire career in the NL and a guy who played nearly his entire career in the NL?


No. Crappy fielders like Chipper and Albert (when he was a third baseman [he's improved a lot as a 1st sacker] have to field in the NL because they have to play instead of check out the babes in the stands when the team is not up to bat. and if an NL team finds a killer hitter like Barry Bonds or Chipper or a number of other guys, they have to find a spot at 1st or left field to hide them (or right field if they can throw).

Albert's still young and pretty healthy. Let's see where Manny ends up. Same for Aramis Ramirez soon enough. Guy's been injured a lot, but he can hit.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Let me dust off my compromise proposal: The Designated Pinch Hitter

1) A player is listed as the DPH in the lineup card
2) Said player is allowed to be sent to the plate for any player, at any time, for up to three times per game.
3) However, the player may only be used once per inning.
4) Any player the DPH bats for remains in the game until otherwise substituted for.
5) The DPH may not be used in the field, or otherwise enter the game except as the DPH.

It puts strategy back into the game, it increases offense by allowing the DPH to come up in key RBI situations. Three chances to hit per game has a certain baseball resonance, and also ensures that you couldn't win a batting title without playing in the field.

(On the issue at hand, I'm pretty much with AWA on this issue. There's plenty of offense in the game as is, and there are other adjustments that can be made to get the same result.)

(edited by TheOldMan on 17.3.10 0040)


Lise
Mrs. Guru








Since: 11.12.01

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.90
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    Let me dust off my compromise proposal: The Designated Pinch Hitter

    1) A player is listed as the DPH in the lineup card
    2) Said player is allowed to be sent to the plate for any player, at any time, for up to three times per game.
    3) However, the player may only be used once per inning.
    4) Any player the DPH bats for remains in the game until otherwise substituted for.
    5) The DPH may not be used in the field, or otherwise enter the game except as the DPH.

    (edited by TheOldMan on 17.3.10 0040)


What? No. That's Calvinball.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
    Originally posted by Lise
      Originally posted by TheOldMan
      Let me dust off my compromise proposal: The Designated Pinch Hitter

      1) A player is listed as the DPH in the lineup card
      2) Said player is allowed to be sent to the plate for any player, at any time, for up to three times per game.
      3) However, the player may only be used once per inning.
      4) Any player the DPH bats for remains in the game until otherwise substituted for.
      5) The DPH may not be used in the field, or otherwise enter the game except as the DPH.

      (edited by TheOldMan on 17.3.10 0040)


    What? No. That's Calvinball.



Great reference.

And JayJay, I forgot the stupid All Star decides rule. Thanks.



Perception is reality
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.90
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    3) However, the player may only be used once per inning.

Making an allowance for batting around in a single inning? Honestly, I like that, and will vote "aye" when I receive my official ballot in the mail.

I've always been a fan of the status quo, with the difference between the two leagues, having tried to appreciate the pros for both instead of sulking about the cons. That said, the visiting team during Interleague play is (IMO) more often than not at a distinct disadvantage - having to play against a DH without a DH-caliber hitter, or having to relegate a high-production guy to a PH role. I've become tepid about interleague play - the novelty has totally worn off. Yanks/Mets six times per year is overkill, and I think it would be great to see these cases of AL/NL teams facing each other twice in a season stop at once (though not a chance, with the revenue generated in each case, I'm sure).

If I had a say - or just to pick out something I'd like changed, I would totally go for 15-team leagues, and have interleague play constantly throughout the season. It seems as though it would generate more interest in a unique series when there aren't 13 other such match-ups going on at the same time. Personally, I might be more inclined to check out a Dodgers/Angels or Cubs/White Sox game if I wasn't inundated with Yankees/Mets.

Also....challenge flags! 2 per manager! Figuring out a penalty for a failed challenge would be half the fun!
The Game
Boudin rouge








Since: 5.5.09

Since last post: 348 days
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.96
The way I see the DH now is that is has it good points and the best one is that for people who are getting up there in their career who can still hit but are not as effective on the field and defensive purposes.

Does the DH dilute the game of baseball? I don't think it dilutes it as there are good arguments from both sides. If I had to make immediate changes to MLB, there would be 2;

1)Bring back the all-star game where it was a time to relax for some of the game's best players and where it didn't decide home-field advantage and with that being said....

2)The best record in the MLB should decide who has the advantage throughout the whole playoffs including the World Series
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