I rarely start threads because I really have nothing new to offer on top of what's already here... but I've been thinking (way more than I should) about the recent & rumored returns of various Superstars & how it relates to WWE Network.
In an effort to pull fans from the Attitude era back in, are we poised for a batch of returns in an effort to pump up viewership/subscriptions to the new channel? With the rumored top 3 matches of WM28 being Cena vs. Rock, Jericho vs. Punk & a Triple H/Undertaker rematch, as well as the returns of Booker T & Kevin Nash to "active" WWE competition in 2011, it would appear as such things are inching in that direction.
Additionally, we saw appearances by Road Dogg, Lita & Foley on the 2011 Slammys edition of RAW. And if you read any of the (mostly rumor-fueled) "newz sites" out there, you see names like RVD & Batista have popped-up recently, as well & X-Pac's name being connected to WWE these days than in recent memory ... and let's not forget the return of masked Kane.
Who else could we see make a return? The Dudley Boyz? Billy Gunn (as a member of the New Age Outlaws)? Bob Holly? And I still don't think we've seen the last of Kurt Angle in a WWE ring.
If handled properly, I would more than welcome these additions as the bridge to a new Attitude era. The current crop of young Superstars is one of the best I've seen in a while ... Dolph Ziggler, Zack Ryder, Cody Rhodes, CM Punk, Wade Barrett, The Miz, Sheamus ... those are the names that we should be talking about in the year 2025 as being the revolutionaries of the Attitude era II ... but I'm of the opinion that in order to make history, you have to remember history. The good that comes from the mingling of Superstars from both these eras will by far outweigh the bad.
We all know that WWE's bottom line is to make money & from the things you read, they're sinking a boatload into this new network. So from what we've seen, are we indeed set for an influx of names from the past & what's the overall feeling here, should this start coming to fruition?
The problem with bringing back Attitude Era guys is that the current audience has skewed so young that they don't recognize any of them anymore. I felt bad for Road Dogg, whose catchphrases flew over the heads of the live crowd. Mick Foley's reactions have been pretty tepid. And even going back to a few years ago, remember D-Lo Brown's return? He got DEAD SILENCE! Aside from Austin and Rock, the Attitude Era guys have not aged well, in terms of relevance.
I want to see the return of Attitude Era guys as much as anyone, but I don't think it would necessarily work, sad to say.
I do, however, agree that we haven't seen the last of Kurt.
There's definitely something to be said for nostalgia, but it's short-lived. Bringing Road Dogg and Lita out was done because the Slammys are the greatest most posh event ever, don't you know.
The Attitude Era worked because they found a way to get people interested in their talent, and interested in their storylines. They haven't been able to do that successfully for years now. They're running off the fumes of the Attitude Era. If they brought back all of the people you mentioned, the only thing that would happen is fans would become bored with them. Their characters (as we remember them) would become watered down and boring by the time the 300th time they mention Twitter.
This is a company that said "Ok ok, we screwed up the only sure fire money feud in 10 years between Bret Hart and McMahon in one of the biggest showings in booking incompetence ever... But there's NO WAY we'll do the same thing with The Rock's return!" And then found a way to screw that up completely too.
They have a lot of internal issues they have to deal with before just about anything they do is as memorable as the Attitude Era. The biggest shame with this company is that the young guys you mentioned SHOULD be talked about in 2025, but will probably never amount to their potential because management doesn't think their last names are "Cena" or "Orton", and they seem only concerned with making those wrestlers into stars.
Originally posted by It's FalseI want to see the return of Attitude Era guys as much as anyone, but I don't think it would necessarily work, sad to say.
Eh. I think we've seen enough of those guys as big players sans The Rock. We've also seen plenty of attitude era guys on TNA getting big pushes over young guys and it didn't do a damn thing for them.Triple H's in ring return post Wrestlemania drew anemic buyrates. It's time to build new stars. There is nothing wrong with bringing these guys in for a cameo from time to time and making one or two of them an announcer or manager or host shows on the WWE Network, but that's about it.
A return of the Attitude Era is exactly what the WWE needs, but not necessarily a return of all those characters. Say what you want about the guy, but Vince Russo's 'Crash TV' style of writing is a major part of what made that era click with the fans. As great as Austin was, he wasn't going anywhere until he beat the crap out of the Bible thumping Jake Roberts and uttered the phrase "Talk about your psalms, talk about John 3:16... Austin 3:16 says I just whipped your ass!" That is all Russo right there.
Now I ain't saying bring Russo back, but you gotta push the PG rating outta there and go PG13 at least. Kids today hear far worse language at school than what the hear on WWE programing. Hell, PG13 movies are allowed to use 'fuck' a couple times and show boobs. What WWE is showing is more like a G rated Disney movie with it's poop jokes and no blood.
They also need to give the wrestlers character. Most of these guys all look alike. Undertaker, Kane, Rey Mysterio... these guys are all characters. If you put Dolph Ziggler and Drew Mcintire next to each other and ask a casual fan which is which, I bet three of them will get it wrong. Quit having these guys all look, dress, and act the same and throw some variety in there.
Originally posted by RYDER FAKINThe only thing I miss is the blood. The current product lacks emotion when a good beatdown occurs without color
See, I actually don't really miss the blood at all. I'll admit, there are some special occasions when it might be good, but right now, the only time you see blood is hardway, and does it ever jump out at you when it happens. I like that blood now means "real." Any time you see, it makes it look like the guys are killing each other. I know you weren't saying that it should be like TNA, but they bleed so much down there that it's lost all meaning. I really like the rarity of it in the WWE.
I think we need to go back even further than the Attitude years.
The WWE needs jobbers and squash matches. If you are getting to see everyone in the ring with each other every single week, there isn't any intrigue for "big time" main events.
BACK IN THE DAY, you would only see two names against each other on PPV, house shows, SNME, and the OCCASIONAL Superstars/Wrestling Challenge/Prime Time match. And those weekly TV matches were like a top-tier guy vs. Virgil. And they were awesome.
Every "Superstar" looked great, as they were winning all the time and getting their finishers to actually FINISH someone. When WWF rolled into your town, you would HAVE to go because each match consisted of these unstoppable characters fighting each other in matches you would never see on TV.
Wrestling fans are spoiled as fuck.
Take a guy like Hunico, for example.
The key is to have a guy like Hunico destroy jobbers for a few weeks. When I say JOBBERS, I mean generic local guys. Build Hunico up. At least give the appearance that he could beat a John Cena if they were to ever fight.
Cena is already MADE. But, if you get more guys that you treat like REAL threats, and keep them out of the ring with Cena, then you have yourself a match that people are excited to see and pay for.
I mean, how many times did we watch Cena and Miz in various tag matches against each other leading up to Wrestlemania? Without Rocky in that match, that would've been the least exciting WM main event that I can recall. Fuck, Punk and ADR and Miz have been in the ring together for the last two months seemingly. Why would anyone want to pay to see them again on Sunday?
(edited by I Breastfeed John Madden on 15.12.11 1633)
How old is the first wave of the Super-Cena Generation kids? Push things to PG-13 once enough of them reach their teenage years.
Until then, I would love to see the WWE bring back the stables they had when they drew their highest ratings in 1999/2000. I am shocked that the Ministry of Darkness has never been given another run at things.
Thanks to the internet, the idea of a jobber isn't feasible anymore. You put a local/indy wrestler on television and before the show is over, people are talking about the guy and spreading the word around about how great they really are.
A perfect example is my whipping boy Zack Ryder. He is a throwaway jobber to me. Unfortunately, thanks to the Internets, He makes a youtube show to get himself over and too many fans start wanting to see him win. This moves him past the jobber status. Mark my words... when he wins a title finally, he's done for. People will lose interest in him. It happened with Barry Horowitz. Remember that pop Horowitz got when he pinned Skip? The crowd reaction Ryder will get when he finally wins the title from Dolph Ziggler will be massive, but that's the most he will ever get. After he has that belt for a while, he'll go back to being Zack Ryder the jobber for a while and then he'll be gone cause people will lose interest in him.
Also, the WWE doesn't seem to want any jobbers because every precious minute of TV time needs to make money and you can't make money from no name wrestlers. NXT was basically a jobber show, but they gave them all WWE licensed names and made money from it. Gotta have a WWE approved name because you gotta have a shirt because someone, somewhere will buy that shirt and that's money in the bank.
Originally posted by DionysusUntil then, I would love to see the WWE bring back the stables they had when they drew their highest ratings in 1999/2000. I am shocked that the Ministry of Darkness has never been given another run at things.
Possibly the worst WWE stable of all-time, workrate-wise. And only prevented from taking the all-of-wrestling crown by the Dungeon of Doom.
I think they need a combination of things mentioned here. Make the NXT group your jobber feeders. They come in if they get over fine, if not, so what. People are still going to watch for Cena, Orton, Punk and whoever they are beating down. The real problem for WWE is they give away too many first time matches. You need to build up to the fans wanting to see a Punk vs. Ziggler match or a Cena vs. Mark Henry match, don't give it away on Raw. That was a compliant made during one of the Legend roundtables is they give a way sure fire money matches for the sake of a ratings point which they are going to get regardless of what they do.
I think going back to the blood is fine, not all of the time, not every match, but once every PPV or every other PPV. What is the point of Hell in a Cell or the Elimination Chamber without blood? You need an element of danger in those matches since they have been so watered down. Blood does add to the match some of the time, not all of the time.
The crowd is ready for PG-13. Punk's giant pops and crowd reaction proves it. Ryder's videos are not exactly PG either. Rock like Honey Badger doesn't seem to give a shit during his promos about language which the crowds are eating up. The kiddy train probably left two years ago, its just WWE doesn't know it or they do and are going to start moving us towards that direction. The Cena kids are now 13 when Cena hit in 2005 that was seven years ago as of April. They are officially of age and thats taking it to the lowest number, I would say some of them are in their older teens.
(edited by lotjx on 16.12.11 0743) The Wee Baby Sheamus.
Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
Originally posted by RYDER FAKINAre we still CRYING about the PG rating thing? Swearing and doing stupid bawdy skits doesn't make money on it's own. Austin was just really good at it, as was the Rock. And H
The only thing I miss is the blood. The current product lacks emotion when a good beatdown occurs without color
I think blood is only interesting when it tells a story or adds to a heated rivalry. Simply just tossing it out there every week and the viewer will get desensitized too it just as much as they did to the cursing of the attitude era.
Going back to the "attitude era" isn't the answer but there's nothing wrong with incorporating some aspects in a well written show.
Austin coming and dropping curses every other word gets old quickly. Having someone get so mad after being in an intense feud by going off and letting a curse slip or beating someone up so bad to the point where they're bleeding in an otherwise PG show is MUCH more effective, in my opinion.
I advocate legacy gimmicks like Mister Perfect or Million Dollar Man or American Dream/Real American or Legion of Doom. Bestow those onto new guys after they're proven to carry themselves in the ring and on the mic. That ties in the originals to the new blood, giving them a currency that younger audiences can keep track of.
"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Getting back to the attitude era isn't gonna work. Trying to recreate a era doesn't work you gotta create something new. Look how badly Vince trying to recreate the Hogan era went with Luger instead of giving Bret the ball at the time.
Originally posted by Matt TrackerI advocate legacy gimmicks like Mister Perfect or Million Dollar Man or American Dream/Real American or Legion of Doom. Bestow those onto new guys after they're proven to carry themselves in the ring and on the mic. That ties in the originals to the new blood, giving them a currency that younger audiences can keep track of.
They tried the million dollar man thing with Ted jr and it was a disaster. Gotta create new stars with new giommicks and fresh stuff not 80's gimmicks rehashed.
I can't think of many legacy gimmicks that actually worked. There's "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers to "Nature Boy" Ric Flair, but that's the rare exception. Having someone directly adopt a previous gimmick almost always tanks. Especially if the word "New" is attached to it. "New Rockers, New Midnight Express, New Nexus".
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I guess I'm using the comparison of the Million Dollar Belt and remembering it was a great angle with DiBiase/Virgil (when he won the belt at SummerSlam (?), the pop was unreal), but after that, it just lost steam.