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The W - Pro Wrestling - The (abridged) return of the WWE title histories (Page 2)
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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.68
This is all semantics about titles that aren't actually real, but the reality is that the belts represent whatever the company wants them to represent. If I decide to take a moral stand not to recognize the Smackdown U.S. Title as the WCW U.S. Title because the one true U.S. Title was unified with the IC Title and never re-separated, that's great for me I guess, but if WWE says that Cena is wearing the same belt held by Goldberg and Sting and Austin and One Man Gang, then it just ... is.

The same thing applies to the World Championship. It's the same title just because they say so, even if you can 'disprove' its validity because they did a lazy job of splitting the belts.
Jim Smith
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Since: 17.10.04
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.21
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    They're still telling the Patterson tournament myth, although this is a little different than I usually heard it.

    PAT PATTERSON
    Sept. 15, 1979 - April 21, 1980

    WWE Hall of Famer Pat Patterson defeated Ted DiBiase for the newly-created WWE North American Championship. Patterson then went to Rio De Janeiro in September 1979, where he defended the title in a tournament. He then unified his title with the South American Championship, thus becoming the first-ever Intercontinental Champion.


I take it the South American championship didn't exist until somebody at WWE.com wrote this down. Interesting, though, how this neatly explains the difference between "intercontinental" and "world"--the IC belt represents multiple continents, but not all of them. (I guess there's a WWE African Champion out there somewhere...)

Anyway, the company has little choice but to perpetuate the Patterson work. Admitting he was just handed the belt would be like saying Shawn forfeited the title because he didn't feel like jobbing to Shane Douglas. In the same sense, I assume the WWF title history says Bret really did tap in Montreal.
redsoxnation
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.53
    Originally posted by Jim Smith
    Anyway, the company has little choice but to perpetuate the Patterson work. Admitting he was just handed the belt would be like saying Shawn forfeited the title because he didn't feel like jobbing to Shane Douglas. In the same sense, I assume the WWF title history says Bret really did tap in Montreal.






To be fair to Patterson, he really wasn't handed a belt, they just changed the name of the North American Title that he had won and defended to the I-C Title. This is similar to Rick Rude in '86 going from World Class Americas Champion to World Class World Champion when World Class pulled out of the NWA. He wasn't handed the belt, the company just represented the belt in a different manner after he won and defended it than they had prior due to political reasons.



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Since: 7.2.04
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.26
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    This is all semantics about titles that aren't actually real, but the reality is that the belts represent whatever the company wants them to represent. If I decide to take a moral stand not to recognize the Smackdown U.S. Title as the WCW U.S. Title because the one true U.S. Title was unified with the IC Title and never re-separated, that's great for me I guess, but if WWE says that Cena is wearing the same belt held by Goldberg and Sting and Austin and One Man Gang, then it just ... is.

    The same thing applies to the World Championship. It's the same title just because they say so, even if you can 'disprove' its validity because they did a lazy job of splitting the belts.


I'm inclined to agree with Justin on this one. Where did the BIG GOLD BELT come from? Who wore it before? What smaller gold belt did the big gold belt replace? Who wore that one? And so on.

Let's not forget, this is all a made-up story. Okay, sure, having the belt means something... because unlike other made-up stories, professional wrestling is still somehow real, except that it isn't. Being the "top guy" in a company is the result of such a strange and mixed number of variables, but ganted: holding the title as recognition for being the "top guy" is somehow valid, given those variables, but it's not like we're talking about the history of the Tour de France or the Superbowl or the Olympics here. Everything in wrestling is pretty loose, as far as the record book is concerned.

If the company says this is the same title (or belt or whatever) that so-and-so held, and even if they can draw a fairly wonky yet somehow held-together thread that supports the claim, then I'll believe it, for story purposes at least (as there are no real other purposes) and run with it.

So, for my money, sure, why not: the World Title "evolved" from the WCW and the NWA title, in all their sordid, sundry, and mixed-up histories, and the WWE title goes back through Hogan and company all the way to Buddy Rogers. It's not like they're making it all up. If certain details or explanations get fudged along the way, hey, don't sweat it, this is wrestling. It happens all the time.



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Since: 23.7.04
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.97
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
      Originally posted by Jim Smith
      Anyway, the company has little choice but to perpetuate the Patterson work. Admitting he was just handed the belt would be like saying Shawn forfeited the title because he didn't feel like jobbing to Shane Douglas. In the same sense, I assume the WWF title history says Bret really did tap in Montreal.






    To be fair to Patterson, he really wasn't handed a belt, they just changed the name of the North American Title that he had won and defended to the I-C Title. This is similar to Rick Rude in '86 going from World Class Americas Champion to World Class World Champion when World Class pulled out of the NWA. He wasn't handed the belt, the company just represented the belt in a different manner after he won and defended it than they had prior due to political reasons.


But really, the NA Title didn't become the IC Title. It couldn't have. Look http://solie.org/ to see the history of the NA Title. There was another champ after Patterson who was not the IC champ. So technically, even though the WWE claims there was a unification match or a tournament, they also continued to recognize the NA Title, apparently. Admitedly, I'm no expert.

Also, I have read about the fictitious South American Championship. But it was on the WWE website, as well.
Irvine_frost
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Since: 11.12.03
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.85
the "south american championship" never existed. wrestling has is prime in south america in the late 70s and the only belt around was the "titanes del ring" belt.



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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.02
Thing is, the IC belt has plates with ALL seven continents on it. Antarctica what?



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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.30
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Thing is, the IC belt has plates with ALL seven continents on it. Antarctica what?


Next week...

WWE.com reports that to further legitimize the inter-continental status of the WWE Intercontinental Championship, Shelton Benjamin will defend the title at a monitoring station in Antarctica.



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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.21
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Thing is, the IC belt has plates with ALL seven continents on it. Antarctica what?


Nuts. Then I have to go back to my theory that, unlike Shelton Benjamin, Triple H is champion on both land and sea.
DJ FrostyFreeze
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Since: 2.1.02
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    ...but if WWE says that Cena is wearing the same belt held by Goldberg and Sting and Austin and One Man Gang, then it just ... is.

    The same thing applies to the World Championship. It's the same title just because they say so, even if you can 'disprove' its validity because they did a lazy job of splitting the belts.
This is the smartest thing I've read all day. Justin always seems to find just the right words to say exactly what I cant. Thank you sir.



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Since: 20.8.03
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#31 Posted on
I consider the Raw belt as part of the WCW lineage.

It's not so much the technicalities that appeal to me as much as the circumstances, and what whose were is that the WWE and WCW belts were unified, but the company was then split--then the WWE-looking belt went one way, and the big gold belt was brought back the other way. Now going by looks alone wouldn't mean much. But not only that, it was brought back by the president of that company at its peak, Eric Bischoff, and the first championship match was validated by the greatest man to hold that title, Ric Flair.

To even further the association, it has been treated by the belt's owner Triple H as if it was the NWA title, with great swaps of the title between him and legends like Michaels and Benoit, with also WCW top dog Goldberg taking it for a reign.

It's all up to your interpretation though. Its lineage wasn't explicitly stated upon introduction which is what causes this whole debate, but I believe there's enough to INFER to associate the Raw and WCW belts. It enhances my enjoyment of matches involving Hunter, Benoit, Michaels, etc knowing that they are going for that very same belt. Further, for all of those who say the lineage is not the same, by that same token, I have a hard time believing Bradshaw is the champion of both WCW and WWF, which is really what that title would be--while all the Raw guys have is just a prop.
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.32
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    But really, the NA Title didn't become the IC Title. It couldn't have. Look http://solie.org/ to see the history of the NA Title. There was another champ after Patterson who was not the IC champ. So technically, even though the WWE claims there was a unification match or a tournament, they also continued to recognize the NA Title, apparently. Admitedly, I'm no expert.

    Also, I have read about the fictitious South American Championship. But it was on the WWE website, as well.

Well, only only one other North American title holder, Seiji Sakaguchi, who defended the title in Japan for apparently 18 months, is listed. If you asked the WWE about him (assuming they cared, which they don't), they'd probably say that he wasn't a real champion, just like Lex Luger apparently isn't counted as an NWA World Champion, or like when Jim Duggan found the WCW TV Title in the trash that one time.



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Since: 17.10.04
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.21
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    But really, the NA Title didn't become the IC Title. It couldn't have. Look http://solie.org/ to see the history of the NA Title. There was another champ after Patterson who was not the IC champ. So technically, even though the WWE claims there was a unification match or a tournament, they also continued to recognize the NA Title, apparently.


You could look at it like Patterson "unified" the North American and "South American" titles, and then the NA title was revived independently of the IC belt. Compare to how HHH unified the World and IC belts in 2002, until Austin brought the IC title back in 2003--HHH wasn't stripped of the belt, it just...reappeared, sorta.

For that matter, it's not too different from Jericho unifying the WWF and World titles into a single championship that Brock took to Smackdown, until Bischoff revived the World title without actually stripping it from Brock.
mikebuk
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Since: 22.11.03
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.68
WWE.com used to put up the title histories before and even that was better than this effort.

Not a lot of background info, and of course, only what they want you to know.

I've done my own, and if I say so myself, they are a heck of a lot more comprehensive than WWE try.

They say Trish Stratus has won the Womens title a record 5 times. True in the modern area, but Fabulous Moolah won 8 titles since 1956 and 1 a few years back.

Do they all count as one version of the womens title which I believe she brought at one point.

Alundra Blayze was recognised as champion in the 90's. Is this when WWE start counting ?

(edited by mikebuk on 20.12.04 1551)


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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
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All I've got to say is this:

A couple of years ago, WWE started putting out little mini-bios of some of their guys: Hogan, Flair, legends like Gorilla Monsoon and Andre the Giant, etc.

In one of 'em (the Flair one, maybe?), it states that the Big Gold Belt used as WCW's world heavyweight championship after WCW split off from the NWA, and...and I quote:

    Originally posted by that WWE mini-book
    ...and whose image was directly copied for the RAW World Heavyweight title...


So there you have it, in black-and-white (4 life?) from WWE themselves. HHH's vanity belt, as the smarks like to say, is not the old NWA belt, is not the WCW belt, and has no lineage prior to the night Bisch introduced it on RAW. WWE says it's a world championship, on par with the WWE title on SmackDown! (where the real lineage is), just because it's the highest singles title on that show.

In this case, it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...but it's clearly a chicken.



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#36 Posted on
Just to add to the confusion...Last week or so, Triple H refereed to himself as a "Nine-time World Heavyweight Champion." He added his 5 terms as WWF Champion and 4 as World Heavyweight Champion...so then, basically both can be referred to as the World Heavyweight Title...?



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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.30
    Originally posted by Juggalo101
    Just to add to the confusion...Last week or so, Triple H refereed to himself as a "Nine-time World Heavyweight Champion." He added his 5 terms as WWF Champion and 4 as World Heavyweight Champion...so then, basically both can be referred to as the World Heavyweight Title...?


"World Title" is a generic way of collectively referring to the NWA, WCW, WWF/WWE, ECW & World Titles in one roundabout way. Ric Flair's a 16-time World Champion, comprising of a shitload of titles...it's just easier to collectively say "World".



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Since: 1.3.02
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#38 Posted on
IIRC, WWE put out a magazine roughly around a year ago or so (maybe longer) that chronicled the histories of their various titles. In the magazine was an actual diagram that showed chronologically where title lineages began and/or ended. And guess what? The current version of the World's Heavywieght Title on RAW has a lineage that begins in 2002.

Now, with that said, I too agree with Justin Shapiro. What he says makes absolute sense, even kayfabe-wise. What other professional wrestling entity can even have the wherewithal nowadays to claim a championship to be on the level of a World's Heavyweight Title?

I also think that in a lot of ways, it also has very much to do with our perception as fans of who is a World's Heavyweight Champion. I've read elsewhere that ROH refers to its top belt as a World Championship. The NWA Title is proclaimed by TNA and the NWA as a World Championship. But then, MY question is this (in trying to elucidate this World's Title issue)-- would the majority of people consider the World Heavyweight Championship featured on RAW as a true world championship, moreso than the NWA Title, ROH's title, or even the WWE Title?

This might seem like a silly question to ask, given that wrestling is predetermined and so on and so on, but at the same time, titles are important because of what they mean to us who pay money to see those wrestlers who are recognized as the best in the world. This was a big enough concern for fans and promotions in the past to attempt World Title unifications such as the NWA/WWWF battles between Harley Race and Superstar Graham, and Ric Flair and Bob Backlund, so go fig.

And, if and when a point comes along in the future where either RAW's World Champion or the WWE Champion from SmackDown! cross brand lines and stake their claim to being the true and only World's Heavyweight Champion, you better believe we'll all be intrigued. And we fans will take sides, and it will be a debate discussed here at The W and elsewhere in the Internet universe. Most of all, the entire community of wrestling fans worldwide will all have their eyes glued to that match.




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Since: 2.1.02
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#39 Posted on
It might be a little late in the game for me to bring this point up, but personally, I recognize the Raw title as the WCW Title going back to the WCW/NWA Title split in '92, but I wouldn't recognize it as the NWA Title based solely on the fact that the NWA Title is currently being defended by Jeff Jarrett. Or at least, that's the way I look at it.






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Since: 3.1.02
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.30
    Originally posted by RKMtwin
    IIRC, WWE put out a magazine roughly around a year ago or so (maybe longer) that chronicled the histories of their various titles. In the magazine was an actual diagram that showed chronologically where title lineages began and/or ended. And guess what? The current version of the World's Heavywieght Title on RAW has a lineage that begins in 2002.


Here;

EDIT: And according to the WWE's official publication from last year on their 50 Greatest Superstars of All-Time, Bob Backlund is a two-time WWE Champion. The Antonio Inoki phantom switch in Japan is not mentioned.

(edited by Freeway420 on 20.12.04 1836)


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While he's been pushed too hard, he did freshen the program up a bit for a while. I did not expect for a second that he would beat HHH at Summerslam, but I don't want to see him disappear for good either.
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