StaggerLee
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|  #1 Posted on 26.11.07 1550.12 | Instant Rating: 2.35 | Players on this year's ballot for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Election results will be announced Jan. 8, 2008:
Brady Anderson
Harold Baines
Rod Beck
Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Shawon Dunston
Chuck Finley
Travis Fryman
Rich "Goose" Gossage
Tommy John
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Robb Nen
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Jose Rijo
Lee Smith
Todd Stottlemyre
Alan Trammell
Who gets in?| Promote this thread! |           | Big Bad
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|  #2 Posted on 26.11.07 1802.03 | Instant Rating: 4.09 | | I'd vote McGwire, and that's it. | Mr. Boffo
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| #3 Posted on 26.11.07 1826.03 | Instant Rating: 5.12 | Going back 15 years, 21 players have been elected. 14 got in in their first year. Only two, Sutter and Pιrez, got in after their 6th year of eligibility.
Goose Gossage has seen his % steadily increase like Gary Carter did.
Jim Rice has been hovering around 60% for a while, but this is his 14th year. Still, it worked for Bruce Sutter.
Andre Dawson is close. It might not be this year, but eventually maybe he can cross 75% like Tony Pιrez did.
Of the first year eligible players, none are first ballot hall of famers.
HOF Monitor Test:
Brady Anderson-38
Rod Beck-63
Shawon Dunston-14
Chuck Finley-53.5
Travis Fryman-36
David Justice-43.5
Chuck Knoblauch-66.5
Robb Nen-92
Tim Raines-90
Todd Stottlemyre-15
A score above 100 means they have a good chance of getting in. The median first ballot HOF'er in the last 15 years has a HOF Monitor score of 190.
So I'll say Gossage gets in, and Rice has a good shot. | It's False
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| #4 Posted on 26.11.07 1830.57 | Instant Rating: 4.82 | Is it me or have the standards of the HOF gone WAAAAAY down this year? I loved Chuck Finley back in the day, but he's not HOF material. Brady Anderson had one good year, but is definitely not what I think of when I think of the HOF. And Travis Fryman? Todd Stottlemyre? Really? THESE are potential Hall of Famers? This is supposed to be the best of the best, not a bunch of guys who had decent careers.
And Chuck Knoblauch? Seriously? The same Chuck Knoblauch that once took a routine ground ball and chucked it into the seats straight at Keith Olbermann's mother? Someone at the Hall must have some sense of humor.
EDIT: Can't believe I found that link on the ESPN archives!
(edited by It's False on 26.11.07 1638)
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| #5 Posted on 26.11.07 1833.08 | Instant Rating: 7.40 | Originally posted by It's False
Is it me or have the standards of the HOF gone WAAAAAY down this year?
In terms of player quality, the ballot always looks like this. That's what makes it so much fun.
Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....
*snip*
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| cfgb
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| #6 Posted on 26.11.07 2104.45 | Instant Rating: 5.51 | | One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player. | redsoxnation
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| #7 Posted on 26.11.07 2242.44 | Instant Rating: 3.57 | Originally posted by It's False
Is it me or have the standards of the HOF gone WAAAAAY down this year? I loved Chuck Finley back in the day, but he's not HOF material. Brady Anderson had one good year, but is definitely not what I think of when I think of the HOF. And Travis Fryman? Todd Stottlemyre? Really? THESE are potential Hall of Famers? This is supposed to be the best of the best, not a bunch of guys who had decent careers.
And Chuck Knoblauch? Seriously? The same Chuck Knoblauch that once took a routine ground ball and chucked it into the seats straight at Keith Olbermann's mother? Someone at the Hall must have some sense of humor.
EDIT: Can't believe I found that link on the ESPN archives!
(edited by It's False on 26.11.07 1638)
Ten years in the majors gets you both a full pension and on the Hall of Fame ballot.
I think it is an empty class this year.
I know he pitched forever, but Tommy John was a left-hander who won 288 games. Throw in post-season and he has 295 wins. And, with a .555 winning percentage over his 26 years he is superior to Nolan Ryan's .526 winning percentage over 27 years. Plus, he had the surgery named after him. Except for the magic number, would the Hall of Fame any different if Tommy John and Bert Blyleven were in and Phil Niekro and Don Sutton were out? | Eddie Famous
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| #8 Posted on 26.11.07 2326.35 | Instant Rating: 6.45 |
Originally posted by cfgb
One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player.
Sorry, I don't see it at all. Raines compares only slightly favorably to Lou Brock, the least deserving HoFer. Henderson was a better power hitter by far in his halcyon years, Raines was a failed second baseman who was okay but not great in the outfield. Sorry, but no dice.
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| #9 Posted on 26.11.07 2357.33 | Instant Rating: 4.93 | | I'd be very happy to see Gossage and/or Rice get in. I don't think I could support McGwire, even though by the numbers he obviously qualifies. | cfgb
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| #10 Posted on 27.11.07 0854.06 | Instant Rating: 5.51 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous
Originally posted by cfgb
One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player.
Sorry, I don't see it at all. Raines compares only slightly favorably to Lou Brock, the least deserving HoFer. Henderson was a better power hitter by far in his halcyon years, Raines was a failed second baseman who was okay but not great in the outfield. Sorry, but no dice.
Tim Raines is very overlooked in a lot of areas because of the era he played in. In today's Moneyball era, he'd be a top choice of any executive starting a team.
Start with OBP. His career number was .385, way higher than your average leadoff hitter from the same era. He was patient, NEVER afraid to take a walk.
OPS+ ... If you define 125 as having a very good year, Timmy had 8 of them. 10 of them if you bend it back just a tad to 124. If 150 is a great year, he had 1, with another just 1 point away. You might be surprised as some of the hall of fame names who NEVER had numbers comparable to those.
Cal Ripken had 5 very good seasons, and 1 great season.
Ryne Sandberg had 6 very good seasons, and no great seasons.
He was the biggest victim of collusion. A year after he lead the league in batting, he missed the first month of 1987 WITHOUT A CONTRACT IN HIS PRIME! One of the best players in baseball couldn't get a deal because of the greedy owners. Once he rejoined the Expos, despite missing that time, he just went out and lead the league in runs scored.
In 12 straight years, he never had fewer than 33 stolen bases.
His career stolen base percentage was 84.6%, one of the top numbers of all time.
In his prime, a lineup full of Tim Raines' would score over 7 runs a game, topping out in 1987 at 9.5.
Tack on 2605 hits, 1571 runs, and 808 stolen bases with a .294 batting average, I'd say his numbers certainly merit argument! | StaggerLee
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| #11 Posted on 27.11.07 1234.11 | Instant Rating: 2.35 | | Let's also not forget that with the exception of Gary Carter, he was probably the ONLY superstar of the 80s Expos. He carried them a great deal on his back, and did the best with limited support around him. | spf
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| #12 Posted on 27.11.07 1239.42 | Instant Rating: 5.16 | Originally posted by StaggerLee
Let's also not forget that with the exception of Gary Carter, he was probably the ONLY superstar of the 80s Expos. He carried them a great deal on his back, and did the best with limited support around him.
You just made Andre Dawson cry. | StaggerLee
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| #13 Posted on 27.11.07 1338.40 | Instant Rating: 2.35 | I always think of Dawson as a Cub. He was great in Montreal as well. My Apologies to the Hawk!
| Joseph Ryder
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| #14 Posted on 27.11.07 1401.37 | Instant Rating: 5.44 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous
Originally posted by cfgb
One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player.
Sorry, I don't see it at all. Raines compares only slightly favorably to Lou Brock, the least deserving HoFer. Henderson was a better power hitter by far in his halcyon years, Raines was a failed second baseman who was okay but not great in the outfield. Sorry, but no dice.
Not sure what numbers you're using, but with the ones I'm using, Raines also compares with Tony Gwynn, definitely NOT one of least-deserving HOF members. Gwynn's .385 OBP barely beats our Raines' .383. Gwynn's slugging is about 30 points higher, but Raines stole nearly 500 more bases (with about 13% better success than Gwynn or Brock; he was only caught stealing 21 more times than Gwynn, 161 fewer times than Brock) and grounded into less DPs.
Hits + BB + HBP
Raines: 3977
Gwynn: 3955
Runs + RBIs
Raines: 2551
Gwynn: 2521
Raines also had one of the requisite "dominant" stretches (the 80s).
Raines is in.
(Though I will grant that Raines probably snorted many more grams of cocaine than Gwynn.)
My next marathon is October 7th 2007 -- Royal Victoria | Eddie Famous
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| #15 Posted on 27.11.07 1425.40 | Instant Rating: 6.45 |
According to baseball-reference, the players most like Raines:
1. Kenny Lofton (861)
2. Lou Brock (861) *
3. Max Carey (855) *
4. Willie Davis (846)
5. Jimmy Ryan (826)
6. Jose Cruz (821)
7. Julio Franco (821)
8. Fred Clarke (816) *
9. Harry Hooper (814) *
10. Enos Slaughter (814) *
Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly. Gwynn was also an all-star many more times than Raines and won several Gold Gloves.
In a 23 season career, Raines was an all-star 6 times.
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| #16 Posted on 27.11.07 1445.25 | Instant Rating: 5.16 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous
According to baseball-reference, the players most like Raines:
1. Kenny Lofton (861)
2. Lou Brock (861) *
3. Max Carey (855) *
4. Willie Davis (846)
5. Jimmy Ryan (826)
6. Jose Cruz (821)
7. Julio Franco (821)
8. Fred Clarke (816) *
9. Harry Hooper (814) *
10. Enos Slaughter (814) *
Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly. Gwynn was also an all-star many more times than Raines and won several Gold Gloves.
In a 23 season career, Raines was an all-star 6 times.
The problem is none of those players are really like Raines. Scores of 900 or greater are generally the benchmark for strong similarity according to Bill James, the guy who came up with that score.
As for all-star games, first off Raines was a 7-time allstar making it every year from 1981 to 1987. He actually was an all-star game starter more times than Gwynn by a total of 5 to 3.
That said, I am not sure he quite makes it. In some ways he reminds me of Harold Baines, another guy on this ballot. He was a very good player. But he strikes me as just one notch below the level of HOF. The kind of guy who, if elected, it certainly wouldn't be near the top of the list of bad choices, but not a guy I personally would check the box for. He doesn't make the top 100 on any of the big 4 scores except for HOF standards, a mark that rewards hanging on more than excellence. I think my problem with him is that he pretty much stops appearing in the top 10 of any categories except SB after 1987. If he had put together another year of two where he was in the top 10-15 players in the NL he might have made it over the hump for me, but I just can't see it personally. | JayJayDean
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| #17 Posted on 27.11.07 1559.52 | Instant Rating: 7.40 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous
Gwynn was also an all-star many more times than Raines and won several Gold Gloves.
In a 23 season career, Raines was an all-star 6 times.
Aw, Eddie. All-Stars and Gold Gloves, two of the least relevant benchmarks for measuring a player? I thought you were better than that.
Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....
*snip*
Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass. -- The Guinness. to Cerebus
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| Joseph Ryder
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| #18 Posted on 27.11.07 1629.53 | Instant Rating: 5.44 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous
Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly.
I disagree, I find OBP to be a Much more illustrative and informative stat, *especially* so for a leadoff hitter. It's like Batting Average...except way better.
Gwynn: .385
Raines: .383
And I don't pay much attention to subjective awards where many of the voters don't have or use reliable stats (Gold Gloves) and/or honors where fans are in control of the voting and can vote an unlimited number of times, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
My next marathon is October 7th 2007 -- Royal Victoria | Eddie Famous
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| #19 Posted on 27.11.07 1735.07 | Instant Rating: 6.45 |
Originally posted by Joseph Ryder
Originally posted by Eddie Famous
Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly.
I disagree, I find OBP to be a Much more illustrative and informative stat, *especially* so for a leadoff hitter. It's like Batting Average...except way better.
Gwynn: .385
Raines: .383
And I don't pay much attention to subjective awards where many of the voters don't have or use reliable stats (Gold Gloves) and/or honors where fans are in control of the voting and can vote an unlimited number of times, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Gene Tenace's lfetime OBP : .388
OBP is a fine stat, but give me a .330 hitter with a .390 OBP over a .290 hitter with a .390 average.
The one thing he did BEST was steal bases. He hit well and his OBP was very good. But not HoF worthy on the long haul.
(edited by Eddie Famous on 27.11.07 1536)
As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
As of 10/31/07: Still 217 down!
Now announcing for the NBWA!
www.wdws.com home of DWS Sportsnight and downstate radio home of thecubsfan! | The Goon
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| #20 Posted on 28.11.07 0914.57 | Instant Rating: 8.25 | | Todd Stottlemyre should get some consideration just for telling the mayor of Philadelphia to kiss his ass. | | Pages: 1 2 Next
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