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The W - Current Events & Politics - Ten Commandments (Page 2)
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1299 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Because when we put up monuments on government buildings, the general implication is that it's something we believe to be good and proper.

But under that definition, why is there a monument to FDR?

    Originally posted by eviljohnhunt
    And the Supreme Court has recognized a seperation of Church and State for roughly 100 years, and their reading of the Constitution tends to trump everyone elses.

Other than Dred Scott, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court also once banned abortions, Jacobellis v Ohio(obscenity) and Plessy v Ferguson(seperate but equal).

Remember, the Supreme Court is political, so they can completely butcher cases, and tend to piss on the Constitution with regularity.





"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
There was (and is) nothing stopping Roy Moore, as an American citizen, from putting the Ten Commandments in his front yard. And on every wall of his house. And on his car. And on a T-Shirt. And on his chest, via his local tattoo parlor. And maybe even on his dog, too, though the SPCA might get twitchy about that.

He can even choose WHICH Ten Commandments he wants to display. There's the original Hebrew version, the Protestant version (which tweaks the wording a bit), or the Catholic version (which trims out the "graven images" commandment and splits the "covet" commandment into two), for starters, and there are probably more versions floating around out there.

When court is not in session, Roy is perfectly welcome to take out his pocket version of the Ten Commandments and read it over and over, go out onto the steps of the courthouse and pray with his fan club, or do whatever else he chooses to do in the name of his religion. That's not a big deal.

When Roy is WORKING as a judge, however, the general idea is that he and his court are supposed to be neutral (with respect to religion or anything else). Putting a great honkin' monument out in the rotunda as a sign of allegiance to a particular faith doesn't do much for that neutrality. Claiming that the inscription is the basis for American law, even though half of it contains details of CHRISTIAN WORSHIP (I am thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me, thou shall not take my name in vain, thou shalt not make graven images of, bow before or serve anything else or I'll kick your ass to the fourth generation, thou shall not do anything constructive on the Sabbath) that have _nothing to do_ with the law... that also doesn't do much for that perception of neutrality.

It's similar to prayer in school. Nothing stops a student from praying on the bus, praying in homeroom, praying in class, quoting Scripture in his/her valedictorian speech, praying in a group around the flagpole at lunch, etc... as long as that's an individual, conscious choice. When a public school _as an institution_ wants to lead group prayer and broadcast it to everyone in the building, whether they would prefer to hear it or not, that's a different story, because the school is not supposed to take sides.



"When WCW tries to be racy, it's generally about as light-heartedly entertaining as watching a man rape a woman in a chicken yard." -- Dark Cheetah
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1299 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by vsp
    It's similar to prayer in school. Nothing stops a student from praying on the bus, praying in homeroom, praying in class, quoting Scripture in his/her valedictorian speech, praying in a group around the flagpole at lunch, etc... as long as that's an individual, conscious choice.

Don't be so sure about that. There is caselaw involved regarding students and parents who have had to sue for this, plus many more students specifically at the commencement speech being denied even mention of God, much less quoting scripture.

    Originally posted by vsp
    because the school is not supposed to take sides.

That'll be the day...



"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

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#24 Posted on
The idea of separation of Church and State exists to preclude the gov't from establishing an official national religion that everyone must conform to (like England way back when).

The Constitution, along with a body of critical court cases, establishes these precedents. There are many things that aren't technically IN the Constitution, but exist due to years of interpretative rulings by the court systems.

When it comes to religion in places like schools, the idea is that religion and minors creates a "coercive effect" and thus prayer is illegal in schools (for now) and also why the "under God" addendum to the pledge (it wasn't always there) makes forcing students to say the pledge in school unconstitutional as well (for now).



And Marking Out
Slashwrestling.com
Wienerville
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3063 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by vsp
      It's similar to prayer in school. Nothing stops a student from praying on the bus, praying in homeroom, praying in class, quoting Scripture in his/her valedictorian speech, praying in a group around the flagpole at lunch, etc... as long as that's an individual, conscious choice.

    Don't be so sure about that. There is caselaw involved regarding students and parents who have had to sue for this, plus many more students specifically at the commencement speech being denied even mention of God, much less quoting scripture.


More often than not, the fights have been over institutional support of prayer rather than over spontaneous prayer itself.

For instance, I've seen many cases where an interval of prayer has traditionally been part of a graduation ceremony, and the ACLU and related groups/individuals have sued to stop that. And they should! If a group (students, parents or both) comes up to the school board and says "We've prayed at past ceremonies, and we want to pray at this one," the response should be "Go ahead! Nothing's stopping you. We just can't stop the ceremony or make a special place in it for you to do so. If you want to pray on your own, go for it, and may your God bless you."

But I'm thinking back to when I was in high school, and the Pledge of Allegiance came blaring over the PA every morning. They couldn't MAKE me recite it. They couldn't MAKE me stand up and put my hand over my heart. But they could make me listen to it every morning, and watch my classmates all standing at attention and reciting a pledge that many of them (if pressed) couldn't explain or paraphrase, let alone fully agree with or endorse.

Yet there it was every morning, with all students expected to listen to it, pay it respect, and sing along.

If the tables had been turned, and the Pledge had been banned... could anyone have stopped me from sitting quietly at my desk and _thinking_ the Pledge, or saying it quietly, or stopping at one (or several) points during my day and reciting it on an individual basis?

Didn't think so.

Just like any valedictorian can read his/her speech and end with a Scriptural reference, and nobody's going to leap out of the crowd and burn them at the stake. Or any student can say a little prayer whenever they choose in school, and as long as they're not in Evangelist Mode or yelling it through a bullhorn at other students that aren't interested, they can keep doing it for years on end. That's not what's at stake here.

If I recall correctly (Granny was a Sunday School teacher), Scripture doesn't think very highly of public piety, prayer and actions designed to show off how pious one is. The protestors screaming about the removal of the Alabama monument might keep that in mind. The removal of the monument does _nothing_ to the Commandments themselves; they're a concept, an idea, not a physical thing.



"When WCW tries to be racy, it's generally about as light-heartedly entertaining as watching a man rape a woman in a chicken yard." -- Dark Cheetah
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#26 Posted on
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by spf2119
      Because when we put up monuments on government buildings, the general implication is that it's something we believe to be good and proper.

    But under that definition, why is there a monument to FDR

For the same reason that half of DC is suddenly named after Ronald Reagan, because sometimes we have MAJOR differences in what we believe to be good and proper. Or because we think winning WWII was a good thing for a Pres. to do, your call.



She was worth 800 miles driving to see her play - Brenda Weiler

blogforamerica.com
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 136 days
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#27 Posted on
Here (opinionjournal.com) is a Wall Street Journal editorial written by Chief Justice Moore where he explains his actions (titled ‘In God I Trust’). I don’t know how many of you who supported or opposed his actions have seen this, but this is at least a little closer to the source. To me, one paragraph in particular jumped out:

My decision to disregard the unlawful order of the federal judge was not civil disobedience, but the lawful response of the highest judicial officer of the state to his oath of office. Had the judge declared the 13th Amendment prohibition on involuntary slavery to be illegal, or ordered the churches of my state burned to the ground, there would be little question in the minds of the people of Alabama and the U.S. that such actions should be ignored as unconstitutional and beyond the legitimate scope of a judge's authority. Judge Thompson's decision to unilaterally void the duties of elected officials under the state constitution and to prohibit judges from acknowledging God is equally unlawful.

This would have more weight if the rest of the State Supreme Court backed him up, but the other 8 ALL agreed with the federal court.

And, the next day, the Wall Street Journal editorial section published a rebuttal (opinionjournal.com) to his submission. I think it’s ironic that the side supporting the 10 Commandment statue compares Moore to Rosa Parks while the side opposed compares him to George Wallace (the 1962 version).

Lastly, I want to address vsp’s comment about the 'different' Ten Commandments:

There's the original Hebrew version, the Protestant version (which tweaks the wording a bit), or the Catholic version (which trims out the "graven images" commandment and splits the "covet" commandment into two), for starters, and there are probably more versions floating around out there.

If you’re talking about different languages (such as the Hebrew version), then there will be as many different ‘versions’ as there are languages. As far as the Protestant vs. Catholic, they both have the same Ten Commandments (unless the ‘official’ Catholic 10 Commandments are in Latin). There may be some different wording from different translations of the Bible, but both Protestants and Catholics believe in the Commandments found in Exodus. Lastly, as there is no official ‘Protestant’ church, I don’t see how you can make such a blanket statement as each Protestant denomination could have a slightly (or even a significantly) different interpretation depending (again) on the particular translation used within each denomination.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#28 Posted on
    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    If one or two athiests are "offended" by Christian Images, or even Christian themes at Christmas, then ALL of the Christians must suffer because of the athiest's/heathen's hurt feelings. Any Star Trek fan can tell you the needs of the MANY outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Just because the majority is in favor of something, doesn't make it right. You don't need to go much farther than our own country's use of slavery and Gemany's use of concentration camps in WWII for proof of that.



vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3063 days
Last activity: 277 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Corajudo
    Lastly, I want to address vsp’s comment about the 'different' Ten Commandments:

    There's the original Hebrew version, the Protestant version (which tweaks the wording a bit), or the Catholic version (which trims out the "graven images" commandment and splits the "covet" commandment into two), for starters, and there are probably more versions floating around out there.

    If you’re talking about different languages (such as the Hebrew version), then there will be as many different ‘versions’ as there are languages. As far as the Protestant vs. Catholic, they both have the same Ten Commandments (unless the ‘official’ Catholic 10 Commandments are in Latin). There may be some different wording from different translations of the Bible, but both Protestants and Catholics believe in the Commandments found in Exodus. Lastly, as there is no official ‘Protestant’ church, I don’t see how you can make such a blanket statement as each Protestant denomination could have a slightly (or even a significantly) different interpretation depending (again) on the particular translation used within each denomination.



A few sources:

Translation, Numbering of Ten Commandments Vary Among Faiths (ABC News)

Just Who Did Change The Ten Commandments? (quick Google search, comparing different versions and their similarities and origins)

Which Ten Commandments? (and again)

You and I are (sort of) making the same point, though -- different interpretations, different wordings, different translations and different numberings have subjected the Commandments to a game of Whisper Down The Lane over the centuries. Of course, the same could be said for the rest of the Bible as well, or any other written work...



"When WCW tries to be racy, it's generally about as light-heartedly entertaining as watching a man rape a woman in a chicken yard." -- Dark Cheetah
raygun
Chorizo








Since: 24.7.02
From: winnipeg

Since last post: 3061 days
Last activity: 606 days
#30 Posted on
    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle

    This country was founded by God Fearing Christians and it burns my ass to see the heathens and liberals destroy our American traditions . . . This country wasn't founded by Muslims or Devil Worshippers or Tree Huggers or Scientologists. It was founded by Christians.


Actually, it was stolen from the natives by the Christians.




+ raygun +

WAWF Online: Wicked backyard shit
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3063 days
Last activity: 277 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by raygun
      Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle

      This country was founded by God Fearing Christians and it burns my ass to see the heathens and liberals destroy our American traditions . . . This country wasn't founded by Muslims or Devil Worshippers or Tree Huggers or Scientologists. It was founded by Christians.


    Actually, it was stolen from the natives by the Christians.



And to go farther than that -- who CARES whether it was founded by Christians, Jews, Muslims or atheists? What do we have now?

America is a nation of Christians and Muslims and Devil Worshippers and Tree Huggers and Scientologists and (the few remaining) Native Americans and Liberals and Conservatives and Moderates and Heathens and Devout Believers and uncountable other groups, most of which overlap each other significantly. There's room for everybody, if everybody plays nice.

America is not a "Christian nation" simply because Christians are the majority religion, any more than it is a "white nation" because caucasians are in the majority or a "non-smoking nation" because more people are non-smokers.



"When WCW tries to be racy, it's generally about as light-heartedly entertaining as watching a man rape a woman in a chicken yard." -- Dark Cheetah
Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

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#32 Posted on
    Originally posted by raygun
    Actually, it was stolen from the natives by the Christians.



Damn, I must not have studied during history class. I thought the country was founded when the locals kicked out the British. You mean we signed the Declaration of Independence against the Iriquois?



'But if one is struck by me only a little, that is far different, the stroke is a sharp thing and suddenly lays him lifeless, and that man's wife goes with cheeks torn in lamentation, and his children are fatherless, while he, staining the soil with his red blood, rots away, and there are more birds than women swarming about him.' Diomedes, The Iliad of Homer

Maiden RULES!!!
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#33 Posted on
    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
      Originally posted by raygun
      Actually, it was stolen from the natives by the Christians.



    Damn, I must not have studied during history class. I thought the country was founded when the locals kicked out the British. You mean we signed the Declaration of Independence against the Iriquois?

No, we signed this (tuscaroras.com) with the Iroquois, where we once again prove that "forever" is a subjective term.



She was worth 800 miles driving to see her play - Brenda Weiler

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Chipolata








Since: 29.4.03

Since last post: 4086 days
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#34 Posted on
    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
      Originally posted by raygun
      Actually, it was stolen from the natives by the Christians.



    Damn, I must not have studied during history class. I thought the country was founded when the locals kicked out the British. You mean we signed the Declaration of Independence against the Iriquois?



-falls off his chair in hysterical fits of laughter-

Ahhh, that one made my morning......:D
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by vsp
      Originally posted by raygun
        Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle

        This country was founded by God Fearing Christians and it burns my ass to see the heathens and liberals destroy our American traditions . . . This country wasn't founded by Muslims or Devil Worshippers or Tree Huggers or Scientologists. It was founded by Christians.


      Actually, it was stolen from the natives by the Christians.



    And to go farther than that -- who CARES whether it was founded by Christians, Jews, Muslims or atheists? What do we have now?

    America is a nation of Christians and Muslims and Devil Worshippers and Tree Huggers and Scientologists and (the few remaining) Native Americans and Liberals and Conservatives and Moderates and Heathens and Devout Believers and uncountable other groups, most of which overlap each other significantly. There's room for everybody, if everybody plays nice.

    America is not a "Christian nation" simply because Christians are the majority religion, any more than it is a "white nation" because caucasians are in the majority or a "non-smoking nation" because more people are non-smokers.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret your argument as "Who cares about this history? The present is so much more important!" In a nutshell, anyway.

My response is that our history is incredibly important, because it's how we got to where we are today. And part of the history is a legacy of Judeo-Christian morals, which made this country as great as it is today. After all, the phrase "all men are created equal" does presume a creator. Likely a Creator, capital C.

edit: And maybe I'll take this further... You seem also to contend that the current makeup of the nation should determine its course, more or less. And, well, fair enough. But look at every majority Muslim nation, and compare it to this one, or the UK, or Canada, etc. I think it's clear that the West, with its attendant heritgae, religious and otherwise, has done something right that no one else has. Could satanists have founded a nation as successful as this? Could Muslims? Neither has, yet.


(edited by PalpatineW on 29.8.03 1925)

"Georgie Porgie, he might buy the whole league, but he doesn't have enough money to buy fear to put in my heart."
Pedro Martinez
Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Of course it matters how this country was founded, it is the basis of the law. The law of the land is the constitution, and if the goal behind having one was to just be able to pretend it says something that it doesn't just because you don't like what it does say, there wouldn't be an ammendment process. Why disregard a history that made America the most prosperous country on earth?
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 3 days
#37 Posted on
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret your argument as "Who cares about this history? The present is so much more important!" In a nutshell, anyway.

    My response is that our history is incredibly important, because it's how we got to where we are today. And part of the history is a legacy of Judeo-Christian morals, which made this country as great as it is today. After all, the phrase "all men are created equal" does presume a creator. Likely a Creator, capital C.

    edit: And maybe I'll take this further... You seem also to contend that the current makeup of the nation should determine its course, more or less. And, well, fair enough. But look at every majority Muslim nation, and compare it to this one, or the UK, or Canada, etc. I think it's clear that the West, with its attendant heritgae, religious and otherwise, has done something right that no one else has. Could satanists have founded a nation as successful as this? Could Muslims? Neither has, yet.


    (edited by PalpatineW on 29.8.03 1925)


Muslims most definately could have founded a nation as successful as ours (and I think its very inappropriate to vaguely imply that Muslims and Satanists are on the same footing - I'll assume it was unintentional).

One could argue that there were "nations" that were more successful than the United States. You seem to forget that the whole Middle East was the start of human civilization as we know it - you don't get much more successful than that. We are still very young in the grand scheme of things.

Sure our history is important - and the greatest lesson we learned, and we keep having to learn over and over, is when you one group of people over another, you get yourself into trouble. Our Founding Fathers grasped the basics, but had serious trouble in the implementation.

To have a symbol that serves as the basis of the Christian belief system in a court house is directly implying a preference to Christianity over all other religious groups. I am sorry - I do not see how you can view it any other way. That's not a system that treats everyone equally. And I would react just as strongly if it were a Muslim symbol, a Jewish symbol, a Santaria symbol, a Zoroastrian symbol, a Hindu symbol, etc.... None of them have any place in a court room, or any other building that is supposed to serve the citizens as a whole.

I have tremendous respect for all people who have "faith" - it's not for me but I respect it. However - why can't you Christians just be happy with the fact that they are the richest and most powerful religion? Isn;t that enough? You just have to have your symbols EVERYWHERE?

And with regards to "all [people] created equal" implying a "creator"... I had two Creators - my mother and father. And that's enough for me.



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

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Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 48 min.
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Hey, I was going to fire this off to CRZ as a PM, but I'd like the thread to show it just in case y'all think posted and ran...

Thursday the 21st my grandmother (fathers' mother) was sent to the hospital the same morning we make the trek from DC to Elkins, WV, about 250 miles away. She was bleeding out the belly, passing blood in her bowels, and puking blood.

We left there sunday for back home because the bleeding had stopped, and she was starting to feel better, but not out of the woods.

Tonight (friday) at my dads 74th birthday party at 6:30 locak time, my grandmother, 98 years young, had died.

We were all very close to her, and I didn't want anyone to think, "Hey, he just trolled and ran!" but I was really trying to do some research on sep of church and state before I open my big mouth again, but it doesn't matter anymore.

While it wasn't unexpected, I am still numb, and saddened that she died. She had outlived 4 children, 3 grand kids and 2 great grand kids.

Maybe I'll get my facts straight, but it just doesn't matter to me right now. I have to get ready for the services and the trek back to Elkins, and more schudle juggling at work, and I just figured y'all would like an explination as why I just "posted and ran."

It's been 3 hours since I found out, and I'm still numb, we were all very close to her...
:(




Almost finished my 2002-2003 College Football raitings. Watch this space!!!

spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#39 Posted on
This board should be and thankfully sounds like it is the very lowest priority in your life right now Riki. Take care of yourself as best you can.



She was worth 800 miles driving to see her play - Brenda Weiler

blogforamerica.com
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 17 hours
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Y!:
#40 Posted on
    Originally posted by rikidozan
      Originally posted by CRZ
      Find me "separation of church and state" in the following text.

      FIRST AMENDMENT

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



    You are correct, the first amendment doesn't make a direct reference to seperation of church and state, but just like all laws and admendments, they are open to interpertation.

    And the interperatation that most people have is that the church (religion) and state must be seperated.




There you go. But just because MOST people (and I object to that unsupported qualifier) hold to that, it doesn't mean that all people do. The ten commandments are not associated with one religion, they are part of the three major religions represented in the United States (The Commandments and in fact all of the Pentatuch, the part of the Bible where they come from are accepted by Jews, Christians and Muslims as divine). Additionally, it has been a common experience historically for these commandments, long a basis for civil law in these United States, to be displayed at houses of Justice. I salute a judge willing to continue a rich part of our American heritage in opposition to marginalists.


rikidozan
Just saw your last message - thinking of your family. Hang in there



(edited by AWArulz on 30.8.03 1308)


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