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The W - Pro Wrestling - Tasteless in the extreme... (SD! SPOILER WARNING!) (Page 3)
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Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.63
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Having seen the clip on wwe.com, I have to say these guys look more like commandoes than the current stereotype of terrorists. Because they're masked, we can't even tell if they're (again befitting the Western stereotype) Arabic.

      I stand by my original comment: Reminds me more of the Black Scorpion.
    No no it's the TRUTH COMMISSION!! (in masks) BULL BUCHANAN RETURNS and ah hell with it


Vince is determined to make his investment in Kurrgan pay off.

But seriously, if Vince wanted to really get across that these guys were "terrorists," why didn't they have on anything remotely resembling Middle Eastern garb? From all the talk, I was expecting the headgear that Hassan wears. These guys could have been MegaForce, for all we know.



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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
I didn't blink an eye. "Arabic" or not, it was just another assault angle. Futhermore, I don't expect it'll last until next week, when I'm sure Hassan will have some other scheme cooked up to take out Undertaker. Was it a little over the top? Sure. But offensive? Nah. Though, I guess take that what you will from a 24 year old white guy.

If they use the bodyguards to help Daivari win the cruiserweight title next week, however....



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BigSteve
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Since: 23.7.04
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.96

    Is anybody else finding the fact that this very thread consists of people arguing against the freedom of personal entertainment and expression, which is in and of itself, is one of the major reasons America and England are targets for terrorists attacks in the first place, hilarious?



No. Vince McMahon put something on his TV show that a lot of people found offensive. Therefore they are complaining about it. No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed to do this, but rather they personally don't want to be a party to such an angle. The marketplace of ideas is quite an American idea.


    Another thing to consider: we've had 2 straight of years of "Smackdown for the Troops" in Iraq, so Vince can be all "USA! USA! We love our fighting forces!" Wonder what those troops would be thinking of how Vince is exploiting what they're fighting for in order to make a buck?


That's the thing that erally does offend me. When it's time to do Smackdown in Iraq, WWE will put on this big production about how great they are to the troops and all of that, which, to be fair, is true. But the way they're exploitative of the war on terror with this character is what I find offensive. I guess I don't take it too seriously, but it makes WWE look like they just do shows for the troops for PR reasons rather than for the soldiers.



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Since: 17.10.04
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.01
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    Having seen the clip on wwe.com, I have to say these guys look more like commandoes than the current stereotype of terrorists. Because they're masked, we can't even tell if they're (again befitting the Western stereotype) Arabic.


The masks just lend themselves to the general image of Iraqi terrorists, the ones who film themselves with their hostages and don't want their faces seen.

I'd be willing to give WWE the benefit of the doubt as to whether the masked men are supposed to resemble terrorists. But when WWE edited the footage out of the UK broadcast and covered it with warnings in the US, they basically admitted "We wanted these guys to look like they're Arab terrorists." If they were supposed to be, say, bank robbers, or ski mask enthusiasts, WWE would have dubbed in Michael Cole reinforcing that so as to keep WWE out of trouble altogether.

WWE isn't telling us "this isn't what it looks like," it's telling us "this is exactly what it looks like, please don't get mad at us."
KaneRobot
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.78
Zzzzzz. How many shall now claim "I'm never watching again!", Only to write in to the Torch (or whatever) in a couple weeks complaining about the poor quality of the Bradshaw-Batista main event and how it wasn't worth their $34.95?



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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.17
Apparantly they are cutting out the Taker / Hassan incident completely on Sky. We get Smackdown first showings on Friday nights.

I heard Australian network had done similar.



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Since: 10.12.01
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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.45
This discussion totally proves that Hassan and Daivari are incredibly nuanced characters! Face or heel? YOU MAKE THE CALL.
FurryHippie
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Since: 29.10.02
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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.11
Unbelievable that some people can sit there and say this wasn't "intentionally" done to look like a terrorist situation. The Davairi speech sealed it. "You're being sacrificed for the greater good". The guys were in fatigues, not just some ninja outfits. Army fatigues, with masks. I was cringing, just expecting Hassan to do the "throat slash" symbol before his "henchmen" used the "piano wire" on Taker. And then they carry out Davairi as a martyr for his "sacrifice".

That being said, I'm not offended, basically because I'm just kind of cold like that. However, I can see how some others would be, and thus I really think WWE didn't use good judgment here. Any of you saying the WWE didn't have ANY CLUE that they were making ::nudge nudge poke poke:: references to terrorism are completely out of your mind. Hassan doesn't just "happen to be Arab" doing the old Scorpion gimmick.
crapshootdan
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Since: 5.7.05
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#49 Posted on
Can't say I was offended by smackdown, but then i was only mildly peeved when i heard the explosion from my bedroom window yesterday.
I don't really care, even if they told me there taking the piss out of terrorists I wouldn't care. I think Hassan is great, in a he-really-annoys-me-like-he-should kind of way. I say keep it coming, the more "offensive" the better. I find the whole thing more entertaining because they are failing to offend me. If they do manage to offend me, well I think I'd love it all the more.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
    Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
    You cannot try to discredit WWE's right to create fictional events and accept 24's same right because they are both ENTERTAINMENT. WWE is basically theater in the round. If some Andrew Lloyd Webber type made a musical based on the life of a survivor of a terrorist attack, and that musical contained a scene with a kamakazi-style attack on the main character who will later overcome the situation, nobody would blink an eye.


That's ... kinda stupid. Sorry. Even throwing out the hilarious idea that WWE storylines aspire to exist on the same plane of fictional storytelling as a TV drama or theater -- both of which would portray a terrorism plot, however controversially in nature, with significantly more gravitas than having a cartoon version of a terrorist 'suicide bomb' the Undertaker to soften him up for a future PPV match. No one is discrediting their right to create fictional events, they're saying that they used that right in an incredibly crass, exploitative way.

A real television show or movie "creates fictional events" in the context of telling a larger, complex story. If they choose to walk the thin line of incorporating aspects of real life events like terrorism, that's their prerogative in telling their larger story, and it might be handled well or not well.

Conversely, WWE creates zero-dimensional characters who only interact by wrestling each other. There is no larger story in the slightest. It's a vaccuum in which different guys are lined up to wrestle each other for different reasons, where the singular goal is to draw heat and make money, not to tell any kind of nuanced story about the human condition. Saying that a Muhammad Hassan feud with the freaking Undertaker is the exact same thing as a movie about someone who survived a terrorist attack is like saying that Billy & Chuck's act was the exact same thing as Boys Don't Cry.

WWE is not theater, nor is it drama, nor is it a nonstop action adventure rollercoaster ride. It's pro wrestling, and what happens on its television should be evaluated in the context of how pro wrestling works. So kindly spare me the 1999 Get It rhetoric about freedom of expression and creativity. There's nothing 'creative' about Arab heels who evoke aspects of terrorist acts to draw cheap heat other than it's creating a new level of sleaziness and exploitation.

    Originally posted by Kane the big red Robot
    Zzzzzz. How many shall now claim "I'm never watching again!", Only to etc etc etc


You're a bunch of z's. I shall now claim that I will watch wrestling forever, and that I will live forever to do so. That doesn't put Thursday's angle any further inside the realm of good taste.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 8.7.05 1846)
Pizza Delivery Jones
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Since: 27.6.04

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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.67
Haven't watched Smackdown yet so I can't comment on whether or not the segment offends me, but I doubt it will. The most offensive thing about WWE television, to me, is the lack of quality seen each and every week. I'm offended by how little they do to actually write intelligent television. It's all good though because I can fast forward through anything I don't like. Nobody is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to watch...

That said, I find Hassan and Daivari to be entertaining. In fact, if there were an upcoming Smackdown show in the area I would take a HASSAN IS ALLAH sign. Of course, I'm also planning on taking a DEPORT REY sign to the next Smackdown show I hit in SD...
Juggalo101
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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.80
    Originally posted by ShotGunShep
    Juggalo, if you are Persian, how do you call yourself Arab?

    Not trying to offend you, just wondering.

Actually, I've never referred to myself as Arab-American prior to this, but I'm guessing anybody who descends from the entire region is referred to as "Arab-American." The language that Hassan & Daivari are speaking is NOT Arabic. It's actually Farsi...the language primarily used by Persians. While most Arabs don't speak Farsi, there are several that do. With that said, it's not very clear that Hassan & Daivari are actually Arabs either.



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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.35
    Originally posted by mikebuk
    Apparantly they are cutting out the Taker / Hassan incident completely on Sky. We get Smackdown first showings on Friday nights.

    I heard Australian network had done similar.
Correct Australias Fox network deleted/edited the scenes. All they had was Daivaris beatdown and then Hassan smiling as Undertaker walked up the ramp. Then ad break.



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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.48
X-E's co-Worst Poster of all time! JKyle.com says:

    Originally posted by BigSteve

      Is anybody else finding the fact that this very thread consists of people arguing against the freedom of personal entertainment and expression, which is in and of itself, is one of the major reasons America and England are targets for terrorists attacks in the first place, hilarious?



    No. Vince McMahon put something on his TV show that a lot of people found offensive. Therefore they are complaining about it. No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed to do this, but rather they personally don't want to be a party to such an angle. The marketplace of ideas is quite an American idea.
And the right to change the channel is something an American has.

And what did you think Vince was doing the "partiotic" troop shows for? Hell if he isn't doing it for money or image, he generally isn't doing it. Unless you honestly believe the self-proclaimed genetic jackhammer has a heart two sizes too big.
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
      You cannot try to discredit WWE's right to create fictional events and accept 24's same right because they are both ENTERTAINMENT. WWE is basically theater in the round. If some Andrew Lloyd Webber type made a musical based on the life of a survivor of a terrorist attack, and that musical contained a scene with a kamakazi-style attack on the main character who will later overcome the situation, nobody would blink an eye.


    That's ... kinda stupid. Sorry. Even throwing out the hilarious idea that WWE storylines aspire to exist on the same plane of fictional storytelling as a TV drama or theater -- both of which would portray a terrorism plot, however controversially in nature, with significantly more gravitas than having a cartoon version of a terrorist 'suicide bomb' the Undertaker to soften him up for a future PPV match. No one is discrediting their right to create fictional events, they're saying that they used that right in an incredibly crass, exploitative way.

    A real television show or movie "creates fictional events" in the context of telling a larger, complex story. If they choose to walk the thin line of incorporating aspects of real life events like terrorism, that's their prerogative in telling their larger story, and it might be handled well or not well.

    Conversely, WWE creates zero-dimensional characters who only interact by wrestling each other. There is no larger story in the slightest. It's a vaccuum in which different guys are lined up to wrestle each other for different reasons, where the singular goal is to draw heat and make money, not to tell any kind of nuanced story about the human condition. Saying that a Muhammad Hassan feud with the freaking Undertaker is the exact same thing as a movie about someone who survived a terrorist attack is like saying that Billy & Chuck's act was the exact same thing as Boys Don't Cry.

    WWE is not theater, nor is it drama, nor is it a nonstop action adventure rollercoaster ride. It's pro wrestling, and what happens on its television should be evaluated in the context of how pro wrestling works. So kindly spare me the 1999 Get It rhetoric about freedom of expression and creativity. There's nothing 'creative' about Arab heels who evoke aspects of terrorist acts to draw cheap heat other than it's creating a new level of sleaziness and exploitation.

Now your reaction here... that I find stupid.

Just because wrestling isn't high brow entertainment doesn't mean it isn't entertainment. Your comparisons between wrestling and other media were awfully biased towards proving the WWF is somehow LESS than other entertainment. Which it isn't.

Wrestling is as good as its writers and performers, that's no different than other TV programs.

Chuck and Billy was no Buck and Chuck either but that's judging each story off their own merits, not their mediums. Hell I'd take Kurt Angle's tiny cowboy hat over According to Jim anyday. Different genres of comparison sure, but you can't say that wrestling is only entertainment when its comedy.

Attacking the very idea that wrestling is entertainment or theater, that's ignorant. What the hell is it supposed to be then? We all know it's not a legitimate sports competition and it's only a display of athleticism to a point.

Just because the whole Hassan issue gets you on a soapbox doesn't give you a pass to discount wrestling as a whole.



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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.70
I have not seen it, here Smackdown is shown on a non-UPN station on the weekend, I tape it and watch it Sunday afternoon usually. They could always spin it so Hassan says since the fans think of him as a terrorist just because he's Arab-American, he's going to start acting like it or something like that. Did he give any kind of interview after, I get the feeling that's how it will go if he has not. As for comparing it to 24, WWE may not be Shakespeare, but it's still fiction, with characters, stories on revenge, envy, triumph, basic classical themes. I have no problem with it. Look at Law and Order, making episodes "ripped from today's headlines" or Without a Trace, basically began after a young girl's disappearance. Are those wrong. No.
BigSteve
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From: Baltimore, MD

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.96
    Originally posted by AngryJohnny
      Originally posted by Big Steve
      No. Vince McMahon put something on his TV show that a lot of people found offensive. Therefore they are complaining about it. No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed to do this, but rather they personally don't want to be a party to such an angle. The marketplace of ideas is quite an American idea.
    And the right to change the channel is something an American has.


I'm not sure what exactly you're saying here. Do you mean that people shouldn't complain that they've watched something that they didn't like? That Vince McMahon's customers don't have the right to criticize him for what he chooses to make of the product that he puts out?


    Just because the whole Hassan issue gets you on a soapbox doesn't give you a pass to discount wrestling as a whole.


There's no need to "discount wrestling". Whenever Mcmahon decides to run an angle based on terrorism, necrophilia, rape, murder, or satanism, he does more in that regard than any internet poster ever could.



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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.45
X-E's co-Worst Poster of all time! JKyle.com says:

    Originally posted by BigSteve
      Originally posted by AngryJohnny
        Originally posted by Big Steve
        No. Vince McMahon put something on his TV show that a lot of people found offensive. Therefore they are complaining about it. No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed to do this, but rather they personally don't want to be a party to such an angle. The marketplace of ideas is quite an American idea.
      And the right to change the channel is something an American has.


    I'm not sure what exactly you're saying here. Do you mean that people shouldn't complain that they've watched something that they didn't like? That Vince McMahon's customers don't have the right to criticize him for what he chooses to make of the product that he puts out?
What I mean is anyone who's been bitching about Hassan all this time can, as has been said earlier, easily recognize his music and change the channel when it hits. Or just tape the damn show and fast forward. It's how I learned to cope with Lita segments.

    Originally posted by BigSteve
      Originally posted by AngryJohnny

        Just because the whole Hassan issue gets you on a soapbox doesn't give you a pass to discount wrestling as a whole.


      There's no need to "discount wrestling". Whenever Mcmahon decides to run an angle based on terrorism, necrophilia, rape, murder, or satanism, he does more in that regard than any internet poster ever could.
    Did I say there was a need to? I said that rolling your eyes and calling the fact that wrestling entertainment is stupid is a stupid thing to do.

    You don't put your hand on a stove as a child twice and you should really know better than to be surprised when McMahon books something like this. Why? Oh gee, maybe because there's also been angles about "necrophilia, rape, murder, or satanism" too?

    So what if 9/11 only happened four years ago and the war on terror is an issue that still pertains to the modern day?

    Did you miss the part in this thread where people mentioned Sgt.. Slaughter already?

    There will never be a subject too touchy or too taboo. You can thank God WWF's light bulb hasn't gone up around a Jewish wrestler or we'd likely see HIM feud with Hassan on his way to "War to Settle the Score II" with Heidenreich.

    Look down on wrestling all you want from YOUR soapbox but if it's 2005 and the Undertaker has regained control over the forces of fucking lightening then it's likely never going to stop doing shit like this.

    I'm starting to hope Davairi comes out with 72 virgins next week so the pissing and moaning can REALLY get going.

    (edited by AngryJohnny on 8.7.05 1608)

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JustinShapiro
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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
Son of a b this is going to be (the adjective de rigeuer) stupid.

I kind of can't believe that we actually have to debate whether or not a wrestling angle is the same kind of storytelling as narrative fiction on a TV show. It seemed like the differences would fairly evident between the large-in-scope stories that you get on a TV show and the very simple, thin, straightforward stories you get in pro wrestling. And before you sound the alarm that wrestling is under attack, 'simple' isn't inherently worse, it just means it's not properly suited for every idea that exists.


A Pretty AngryJohnny: "Just because wrestling isn't high brow entertainment doesn't mean it isn't entertainment."

No doubt, and just because wrestling is entertainment, that doesn't mean that it should be held, positively or negatively, to the higher standards of higher brow entertainment. You can say a great interview or backstage skit was great despite the fact that it wouldn't necessarily hold up next to not just Emmy-caliber acting but the majority of acting on television. That's not what it's aspiring to be and that's not what it's supposed to be -- it's simply a great promo or great acting within the confines of a pro wrestling angle.

That's why I think the idea that it's fair game for a pro wrestling angle if it's fair game for a 'real' TV show is incredibly silly as a standalone argument: because pro wrestling angles don't treat anything in the same larger context as a TV drama; they put it in the limited scope of a pro wrestling angle. So when you try to tackle a very complicated issue within the context of a pro wrestling angle, chances are it's going to come off very badly and very stupidly, because, shock of shocks, pro wrestling storytelling works for pro wrestling feuds and not complex issues.


"Your comparisons between wrestling and other media were awfully biased towards proving the WWF is somehow LESS than other entertainment. Which it isn't."

Well, the intention of making the comparisons was not that WWF is less than other entertainment, but that it's so different in every facet that it shouldn't be examined using the same standards and criteria. It should be examined within the standards and criteria of professional wrestling, because there's not a 1:1 comparison you can make between wrestling and other media. And there shouldn't be, because they are completely different in practically every aspect, from what they're trying to achieve to how they go about achieving it.


"Attacking the very idea that wrestling is entertainment or theater, that's ignorant. What the hell is it supposed to be then?"

It's pro wrestling and it's singularly unique, because it uses simple storytelling to amplify the marketability of an ostensibly athletic competition, regardless of whether or not people know it's fake. If only there were a handy two-word term for it that combined the entertainment aspect and the sports aspect. Whatever the case, it's far from the same thing as theater or TV drama.

I don't understand the inferiority complex some wrestling fans have to where they want wrestling to be exalted as something that it's not, such as some kind of sophisticated morality play, instead of just appreciated for what it is, which is plenty great in its own right. I don't think that saying that a WWE angle doesn't boast the same storytelling breadth as an hourlong drama is a knock against wrestling.


"Look down on wrestling all you want from YOUR soapbox"

You love wrestling the most! The MOST!! Your "I stayed 100% loyal to wrestling when they did something repugnant and all I got was this lousy turnbuckle pad" turnbuckle pad will be arriving shortly. The Business appreciates the fact that someone out there truly gets it, though subconsciously, it also wonders if you realize how something like Thursday hurts wrestling, hurts people's perception of wrestling, makes it harder for a wrestling company to make money, and makes you have to work even harder to defend it against people who look down on it.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 9.7.05 1721)
J. Kyle
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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.45
X-E's co-Worst Poster of all time! JKyle.com says:

    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    "Look down on wrestling all you want from YOUR soapbox"

    You love wrestling the most! The MOST!! Your "I stayed 100% loyal to wrestling when they did something repugnant and all I got was this lousy turnbuckle pad" turnbuckle pad will be arriving shortly. The Business appreciates the fact that someone out there truly gets it, though subconsciously, it also wonders if you realize how something like Thursday hurts wrestling, hurts people's perception of wrestling, makes it harder for a wrestling company to make money, and makes you have to work even harder to defend it against people who look down on it.

    (edited by JustinShapiro on 9.7.05 1721)
Loyalty? I've jumped ship on wrestling when it didn't entertain me, I'll likely do it again so they're waisting their turnbuckle on me.

If I could get Angel back I'd piss on the ashes of wrestling in a second, and I'd try to spell "Akio says FUCK YOU" while doing so.

I don't need the mainstream to get wrestling. I don't give a fuck about what people think of it.

Vince's got enough money, this isn't going to hurt him. Hell, if history is an indication stepping over the line only helps.

In the same way I'll never rant about how comics are really graphic novels and they are more than Archie, I'll never defend wrestling to the "higher brow" crowd. And forget that notion, high or low brow entertainment is entertainment.

Wrestling isn't 100% narrative or 100% athleticism it IS a mix of both but that doesn't mean it's all that unique for the better or the worse. It may be a circus but it's entertainment. And entertainment is entertainment. Fraser is no more or less valuable than Tajiri the House Boy who serves tea Jericho pissed in. Horatio Hornblower stands on the same footing as Have a Nice Day.

You're worried about how people perceive our so-called sport.

Me? I'll tell people while I like it in a few sentences but I don't care if they roll their eyes.

You talk about inferiority complexes but YOU are the one who feels the need to defend it continuously.

I can't believe it either. Then again if I wanted to say "son of a bitch" I would type out the "itch."



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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.44
    Originally posted by AngryJohnny
    Vince's got enough money, this isn't going to hurt him. Hell, if history is an indication stepping over the line only helps.
If RECENT history is an indication, numbers are continuing to trend downward, and there are plenty of those who would argue that "ideas" like the angle on Thursday tend to hasten the downswing instead of reversing it.

MY impression is that you're not really reading Justin's posts, as you seem to be ascribing opinions to him which he hasn't expressed. Maybe go back and read the entire thread again.


    I'm starting to hope Davairi comes out with 72 virgins next week so the pissing and moaning can REALLY get going.
See, I'M already tired of the pissing and moaning. They'd be wisest to drop it without a trace, but if history is an indication Hassan will unify the world championships while Vince desperately tries to get ANYBODY not on an Internet message board to talk about the WWE.




CRZ
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