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The W - Pro Wrestling - Tasteless in the extreme... (SD! SPOILER WARNING!) (Page 2)
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geemoney
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.19
Shock value, baby. WWE is the king.

Something Keller brought up- WE know this is taped Monday, but the announcers always act as if they're live- which may offend regular fans more, thinking WWE is doing this angle TONIGHT in a reaction to the London bombings. Do they make enough distinction to make sure fans know that this is not live?

For the record, I was not offended. Then again, I don't live in London. But in general, I'm not easily offended. I can, however, understand people being offended at that.

(edited by geemoney on 8.7.05 0032)


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Juggalo101
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.80
    Originally posted by TheCaptainOfEvil
    Or did they? Seriously I getting sick and tired of these racists charactors Kerwin,Hassan and Diavari,the Mexicools.

    I actaully beginning to think WWE fans are racist:

    Example 1)The first promo for Hassan wasn't hateful at all. He said he was an american of arab decent and wanted to wrestle in the WWE and then he said,"Praise Allah" and the dumb rednecks booed! Why don't they boo when Michaels
    wears christian symbols and prays before matches?

    Example 2) When Chavo was making racist comments about Mexicans and saying how great white people are the fans weren't booing they were cheering.

    Example 3) When JBL was in Iraq and talking about how the soldiers were enslaving the Iraqis and taking over the country he was cheered.

    If that's not prejudice I don't know what is.


Your example Number One) No, no. You can't be telling me that's all he said. He didn't say something along the lines of, "You ignorant people boo me because I'm Arab-American." You call the crowd ignorant and you get booed. I don't care if you are Arab-American.

Your example Number Two) Wait...You're saying when Chavo was saying how white people were great, the fans cheered? Last time I checked the majority of WWE fans are white. In addition to that, I'm not sure if something else was going on in the ring at the time, but for some reason there was a more-than-needed pop when he said, "Kerwin White."

Your example Number Three) I'm honestly not recalling that one, so I'll get back to you on that.
    Originally posted by Deputy Marshall
    Knowing several Arab-Americans (both in the past and presently), I'm sorry to say that I find WWE encouraging fans to boo someone because they're Arab-American and focusing in on signs that say stuff like "Hassan lost his camel" or whatever pretty offensive.

Well, being Arab-American (born here, but have Persian decent), I honestly have yet to be offended by a single issue of the entire Hassan situation. Hassan was brought in to be a HEEL. The race card was played so he could draw serious heat. Could they have stuck him with a random shitty gimmick and tried to draw heat? Yes, but why mess with what's already there? Just take a look how over he is as a heel now. Trips himself couldn't draw this kind of heat.

If they focused in on the "Hassan lost his camel" while he was with an entirely different gimmick, then that might be a bit on the racist side. But his entire GIMMICK is the race card. And that's just it...it's a gimmick. In the beginning, could they have brought out Mohammad Hassan, the face, and have people cheer him? Yes. Nobody initially booed him because of the fact that he was Arab-American. He's calling the crowd ignorant among several other names. During his debut, could they have brought out this random young man by the name of Mohammad Hassan and have him draw this kind of heat? Other than a few drunk rednecks in the crowd, nobody is going to really care that he's Arab-American. To me, these signs are no different than for every any other heel. Do the other signs involve race? No, but that's because that's not JBL's gimmick. When you boil it all down, that's all it is...a gimmick.

Jeesh, you gringos and your wrestling...



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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
Eh, I didn't think it was that big a deal, especially since the spoilers I read made it sounded a lot worse. Really I think that the Booker/Angle angle and Mysterio/Eddie (if it leads to any kind of child molestation or Eddie being the father) more tasteless. Not to mention Lita/Edge which was pretty much a slap in the face to a specific individual.



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thecubsfan
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

    They had a deadline to meet, and I'm sure the tape was already in UPN's hands before they even had a clue of what was going on.


How do we know this? I'm not trying to point this at you, but there's an assumption that's being made that they couldn't have edited it off they wanted, and I'm not sure how anyone knows that to be true. The WWE has a high tech production setup and very skilled people. I know very little exactly about that type of work or at what moment they absouletey have to send the tape to UPN. You could figure a situation where UPN lets them have to the last minute and their fancy editing software lets them swap in Monday's main event. Or you could figure they have to send in the tape a day in advance to get screened by UPN (and gosh, would UPN look bad for letting it go.)

I'm not saying I knew they had enough time to fix it, but I'm also not saying I knew they didn't. Not qualified to assume that, but at the same time, I don't know if ayone else here is. (Someone might, I dunno.)

It's a little bit of splitting hairs - saying "IF they had no time to edit it out" rather than jumping to the conclusion, I wouldn't be bothered - but I don't think we have enough information to definitely state they couldn't have pulled it out (or edited, or redone the voice track, or added a "we're REALLY SORRY about this one" bumper.

They did have enough time to add a scroll; I wonder how much a reach it would've been to do anything else.

(edited by thecubsfan on 8.7.05 0002)

(edited by thecubsfan on 8.7.05 0003)

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.60
I wasn't really uncomfortable until the garroting began. That was a little much.

Here's a point no one's raised. Doesn't Taker have sway enough by now to veto this kind of crap?



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Since: 9.1.02
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.41
Speaking of assumptions, is it much of a stretch to assume that a large proportion of WWE's audience doesn't know the difference between the character and the person? I fear for Hassan and Daivari's safety.

*My* assumption (as baseless as it might be) is that the angle is part of the Hassan package, and had to be expected at *some* point. Until today, the inappropriateness of the angle decreased by the day. But since it *is* still extreme, it wouldn't have been wasted on anybody less than a main eventer, like the Undertaker. This is a major program, and I would say that WWE wouldn't have wanted it removed or edited, all things considered. What *might* change is who ends up ultimately winning this feud. But I can't help but think that WWE got itself some extra buys in a couple of weeks. Depending on your point of view, the timing of the angle can be bad or good.

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.15
    Originally posted by Juggalo101
      Originally posted by TheCaptainOfEvil
      Or did they? Seriously I getting sick and tired of these racists charactors Kerwin,Hassan and Diavari,the Mexicools.

      I actaully beginning to think WWE fans are racist:

      Example 1)The first promo for Hassan wasn't hateful at all. He said he was an american of arab decent and wanted to wrestle in the WWE and then he said,"Praise Allah" and the dumb rednecks booed! Why don't they boo when Michaels
      wears christian symbols and prays before matches?

      Example 2) When Chavo was making racist comments about Mexicans and saying how great white people are the fans weren't booing they were cheering.

      Example 3) When JBL was in Iraq and talking about how the soldiers were enslaving the Iraqis and taking over the country he was cheered.

      If that's not prejudice I don't know what is.


    Your example Number One) No, no. You can't be telling me that's all he said. He didn't say something along the lines of, "You ignorant people boo me because I'm Arab-American." You call the crowd ignorant and you get booed. I don't care if you are Arab-American.

    Your example Number Two) Wait...You're saying when Chavo was saying how white people were great, the fans cheered? Last time I checked the majority of WWE fans are white. In addition to that, I'm not sure if something else was going on in the ring at the time, but for some reason there was a more-than-needed pop when he said, "Kerwin White."

    Your example Number Three) I'm honestly not recalling that one, so I'll get back to you on that.
      Originally posted by Deputy Marshall
      Knowing several Arab-Americans (both in the past and presently), I'm sorry to say that I find WWE encouraging fans to boo someone because they're Arab-American and focusing in on signs that say stuff like "Hassan lost his camel" or whatever pretty offensive.

    Well, being Arab-American (born here, but have Persian decent), I honestly have yet to be offended by a single issue of the entire Hassan situation. Hassan was brought in to be a HEEL. The race card was played so he could draw serious heat. Could they have stuck him with a random shitty gimmick and tried to draw heat? Yes, but why mess with what's already there? Just take a look how over he is as a heel now. Trips himself couldn't draw this kind of heat.

    If they focused in on the "Hassan lost his camel" while he was with an entirely different gimmick, then that might be a bit on the racist side. But his entire GIMMICK is the race card. And that's just it...it's a gimmick. In the beginning, could they have brought out Mohammad Hassan, the face, and have people cheer him? Yes. Nobody initially booed him because of the fact that he was Arab-American. He's calling the crowd ignorant among several other names. During his debut, could they have brought out this random young man by the name of Mohammad Hassan and have him draw this kind of heat? Other than a few drunk rednecks in the crowd, nobody is going to really care that he's Arab-American. To me, these signs are no different than for every any other heel. Do the other signs involve race? No, but that's because that's not JBL's gimmick. When you boil it all down, that's all it is...a gimmick.

    Jeesh, you gringos and your wrestling...


I'm Hispanic and In all seriousness before he debuted on Raw officialy they had Hassan on the Titan tron saying that he wanted the same oppurtunity as everyone else and then was booed for his religous remark. It seems like the steroid abusing Hassan would have been booed even if he was a positive muslim charactor.

And don't you remember when JBL came out in the Bio suit on the Iraq show talking about the USA owning Iraq and the Iraqis in hopes that they would boo but the evil redneck soldiers cheered.

I'm sure some can back up my claims here.



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Since: 17.10.04
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.01
    Originally posted by Juggalo101
      Originally posted by TheCaptainOfEvil
      The first promo for Hassan wasn't hateful at all. He said he was an american of arab decent and wanted to wrestle in the WWE and then he said,"Praise Allah" and the dumb rednecks booed! Why don't they boo when Michaels
      wears christian symbols and prays before matches?


    No, no. You can't be telling me that's all he said. He didn't say something along the lines of, "You ignorant people boo me because I'm Arab-American." You call the crowd ignorant and you get booed. I don't care if you are Arab-American.


Hassan's earliest promos, from what I know, didn't insult the crowd at all. The entire idea was to introduce the character as wanting to be a face, and then turning him heel when the crowd inevitably turned on him.

Whether they turned on him because he was trying too hard to make them like him or becaue he's an Arab depends on your POV, I guess. I personally expected that fans would anticipate where the angle was going to and preemptively turn on him, knowing that he'd be playing the race card on them.

    Originally posted by Juggalo101
    Well, being Arab-American (born here, but have Persian decent), I honestly have yet to be offended by a single issue of the entire Hassan situation. Hassan was brought in to be a HEEL. The race card was played so he could draw serious heat.


The trouble with the gimmick is that you're supposed to only hate Hassan because he wrongly accuses the audience of wrongly stereotyping him as (among other things) a terrorist. We actually hate him because he's a gigantic jerk who cheats and whines, so he's baselessly accusing us of bigotry, which makes him an even bigger jerk. But when he does stuff like this, he's essentially revealing that he really is a terrorist. I mean, c'mon--the only guys he knows that can help him ambush Taker all happen to be Arab-looking guys wearing ski masks and fatigues?

So now the audience is justified in calling Hassan a terrorist, and Hassan is justified in accusing them of doing it, which renders the stated gimmick moot. You might as well argue that Shawn Michaels is a heel because he's mad at the crowd for believing he superkicked Hulk Hogan. No, he's a heel because he really did superkick Hulk Hogan. And Hassan's character really is a terrorist--at least in the same WWE-land terms that Isaac Yankem was really a dentist and Val Venis is really a porn star. WWE knows they're portraying him as a terrorist because they run warnings which by their mere presence draw a connection between the angle and al-Qaeda attacks--if Hassan were just a whiny minority playing the race card none of that would be necessary.

I'm not saying everyone has to be offended by the gimmick, but how far does it have to go before people stop rationalizing it? I get the sense Hassan could literally do an angle where he praises the 9/11 attacks, tries to suicide-bomb Teddy Long's office, and kidnaps Sgt. Slaughter and beheads him, and people would still be saying "What's the big deal? He's not a negative portrayal of Arabs; the fans just hate him because he calls them ignorant."
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.31
    Originally posted by TheCaptainOfEvil
    Example 3) When JBL was in Iraq and talking about how the soldiers were enslaving the Iraqis and taking over the country he was cheered.


Wrong example. Should he have been booed or what???



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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.73
    Originally posted by Jim Smith
      Originally posted by Juggalo101
        Originally posted by TheCaptainOfEvil
        The first promo for Hassan wasn't hateful at all. He said he was an american of arab decent and wanted to wrestle in the WWE and then he said,"Praise Allah" and the dumb rednecks booed! Why don't they boo when Michaels
        wears christian symbols and prays before matches?


      No, no. You can't be telling me that's all he said. He didn't say something along the lines of, "You ignorant people boo me because I'm Arab-American." You call the crowd ignorant and you get booed. I don't care if you are Arab-American.


    Hassan's earliest promos, from what I know, didn't insult the crowd at all. The entire idea was to introduce the character as wanting to be a face, and then turning him heel when the crowd inevitably turned on him.

    Whether they turned on him because he was trying too hard to make them like him or becaue he's an Arab depends on your POV, I guess. I personally expected that fans would anticipate where the angle was going to and preemptively turn on him, knowing that he'd be playing the race card on them.


There were a series of Hassan promos prior to his debut. In the first one or two, he was all hunky-dory and just "asking for a chance" and all that. By the third and fourth, though, he had already turned heel in the pre-tapes and cut the promo on his uncle/cousin/whatever's convenience store shutting down because of 9/11 and how he was harrassed by airport security because of 9/11. Then his debut on RAW was interrupting one of the wacky women segments, so it's pretty clear that he was positioned as a heel from the very first time he actually showed up. The first two pretaped promos are more an aberration than anything else.

(edited by DsTEviLSCA on 8.7.05 0408)
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
a little side note, I found it kind of comical that Daivari was from Minneapolis, I just found that kinda funny.... I dont think it was tasteless, pushing the envelope a bit, but then again it is the WWE, and hey they had the whole ministry gimmick, I almost would hate to be Hassan outside of the ring I bet people hate him... also, has anyone heard or read anywhere what his and Daivaris positions are on this storyline?
redsoxnation
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    I wasn't really uncomfortable until the garroting began. That was a little much.

    Here's a point no one's raised. Doesn't Taker have sway enough by now to veto this kind of crap?






If Taker vetoed crap, that would eliminate most of his feuds.
So, it took Vince a little under 3 years to use "terrorists". The shock is it took that long. On the historical level, this isn't even near the top when compared to:
Even through the 80's, heel German wrestlers claimed to have been taught the Iron Claw in German Death Camps.
Sgt. Slaughter pledging allegiance to Iraq during the first Gulf War and getting the WWF Title on top of it.
Insert Russian Wrestler burying the patriotic American under the Soviet Flag during the Cold War.
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Another thing to consider: we've had 2 straight of years of "Smackdown for the Troops" in Iraq, so Vince can be all "USA! USA! We love our fighting forces!" Wonder what those troops would be thinking of how Vince is exploiting what they're fighting for in order to make a buck?



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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.44
    Originally posted by Batista79
    a little side note, I found it kind of comical that Daivari was from Minneapolis, I just found that kinda funny.... I dont think it was tasteless, pushing the envelope a bit, but then again it is the WWE, and hey they had the whole ministry gimmick, I almost would hate to be Hassan outside of the ring I bet people hate him... also, has anyone heard or read anywhere what his and Daivaris positions are on this storyline?


With the recent rash of releases, I'd put money on them keeping their mouths shut and going with the flow.





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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.01
I found it to be really funny. A little tastelss, but I wasn't offended by the segment. Since I read the spoilers in advance, I knew that it was going to happen (that could have lessened the shock value, but I was still admittedly shocked by the appearance of the bWo yet) but still, it was kind of cool to watch.

I think this is going to be a good feud.



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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.55
The WWE is a for-profit, capitalistic company. Everything they do is ultimately designed to generate wealth for the WWE & its investors.

When it seems as if you're hoping to profit from the murder & blood-letting of terrorist attacks... you're walking a very fine line, my friends.

I don't want to get too morally indignant, b/c wrestling has always borrowed story ideas from "real life" events... but that's also why this is an issue. "24" is pure fantasy -- but wrestling is supposed to be a blend of truth & fiction. The "truth" in this angle (that was blended with the fictional storyline) was a near-homage to the same terrorist tactics that have killed thousands of Americans (and others) worldwide.

To me, that makes this significantly different from, say, the Katie Vick angle, or random-hoods-attack-random-babyface. Just my opinion, of course.



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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.90
Juggalo, if you are Persian, how do you call yourself Arab?

Not trying to offend you, just wondering.
Matt Tracker
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.63
Having seen the clip on wwe.com, I have to say these guys look more like commandoes than the current stereotype of terrorists. Because they're masked, we can't even tell if they're (again befitting the Western stereotype) Arabic.

I stand by my original comment: Reminds me more of the Black Scorpion.

(edited by Matt Tracker on 8.7.05 0840)


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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.44
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    Having seen the clip on wwe.com, I have to say these guys look more like commandoes than the current stereotype of terrorists. Because they're masked, we can't even tell if they're (again befitting the Western stereotype) Arabic.

    I stand by my original comment: Reminds me more of the Black Scorpion.
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
Is anybody else finding the fact that this very thread consists of people arguing against the freedom of personal entertainment and expression, which is in and of itself, is one of the major reasons America and England are targets for terrorists attacks in the first place, hilarious?

Another thing that astounds me is that there are now two people, grown adults (I believe) mind you, that have now admitted in this thread that WWE is SOOOOOO convincing in its portrayal of Arab-Americans that they cannot distinguish the difference between reality and a fictional television show. You cannot try to discredit WWE's right to create fictional events and accept 24's same right because they are both ENTERTAINMENT.

WWE is basically theater in the round. If some Andrew Lloyd Webber type made a musical based on the life of a survivor of a terrorist attack, and that musical contained a scene with a kamakazi-style attack on the main character who will later overcome the situation, nobody would blink an eye.

The bottom line is that if you are really and truly offended by the show, Hassan has a VERY clear and distinctive entrance theme, so you can exercise your given right to change the channel upon hearing it, because ratings and reaction will be the ultimate judge.


(edited by Super Shane Spear on 8.7.05 0858)
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Flair is effectively the face. He gets cheered anytime he comes out without HHH. Add me to the list of wieners looking forward 2 weeks from now to see bad acting 101, and to hear JR ask the question "Why Lita Why? and call her a Jezebel.
- too-old-now, [RAW] 5/9/2005 (2005)
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