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23.11.14 2107
The W - Football - Broncos Sign Wes Welker
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Big Bad
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/broncos-welker-agree-2-deal-214130890--nfl.html

The Patriots are going to seriously regret letting Welker leave. If they think Danny Amendola can just slot in and replace him, they have another thing coming.



"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." --- Bart Giamatti, on baseball
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TheBucsFan
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57


Five years ago, you would have said the same thing about Welker that you are saying about Amendola* now. The Dolphins were on the verge of cutting Welker when the Pats traded for him - and Welker had more catches in his first year as a Patriot than he did in his entire four-year career before the move to Foxboro. No disrespect to Welker, who I'm sure works hard, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that Brady, Belichick and the rest of the Patriots gang played a huge role in shaping Welker into the player he is now, and that the Pats have earned enough of a track record to justify a "wait and see" reaction here.

I'm shocked Welker went to Denver, but given the relatively small and short-term contract, it can only mean either that the Patriots don't think Welker is as good or as important as his numbers suggest or that Welker didn't actually want to stay in New England. Given that Robert Kraft a week or so ago said he wanted Welker to be a "Patriot for life," I think the latter is more likely.

* - Besides, who's to say it will be Amendola who serves as Welker's "replacement" anyway? Could be someone else on the roster they see potential in, a free agent they are yet to sign, or someone they get in the draft.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 14.3.13 0919)
lotjx
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.12
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan


    Five years ago, you would have said the same thing about Welker that you are saying about Amendola* now. The Dolphins were on the verge of cutting Welker when the Pats traded for him - and Welker had more catches in his first year as a Patriot than he did in his entire four-year career before the move to Foxboro. No disrespect to Welker, who I'm sure works hard, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that Brady, Belichick and the rest of the Patriots gang played a huge role in shaping Welker into the player he is now, and that the Pats have earned enough of a track record to justify a "wait and see" reaction here.

    I'm shocked Welker went to Denver, but given the relatively small and short-term contract, it can only mean either that the Patriots don't think Welker is as good or as important as his numbers suggest or that Welker didn't actually want to stay in New England. Given that Robert Kraft a week or so ago said he wanted Welker to be a "Patriot for life," I think the latter is more likely.

    * - Besides, who's to say it will be Amendola who serves as Welker's "replacement" anyway? Could be someone else on the roster they see potential in, a free agent they are yet to sign, or someone they get in the draft.

    (edited by TheBucsFan on 14.3.13 0919)


Who? Who on that roster is as stable as he is. Hernandez is on and off again hurt. Gronk just wants to party. The other WR are just there. Wes was their best receiver and now they have another white boy that is pretty fragile. Its the Pats thinking they know better than anyone else, but haven't won anything since the year before spy gate. I am laughing at the superior intelligence of the hoodie.

(edited by lotjx on 14.3.13 0913)


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TheBucsFan
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57
    Originally posted by lotjx
    The other WR are just there.


    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Five years ago, you would have said the same thing about Welker


This is a guy who was undrafted and basically just a punt returner before arriving in New England and they turned him into a record-setting receiver pretty much overnight. Obviously Welker deserves tons of the credit, but I'm thinking Belichick and Brady had quite a bit to do with it as well.

When was the last time someone left New England a star and then went elsewhere and continued performing at the same level? The Pats dumped Moss, he hasn't been the same since. Yeah, he went to a Super Bowl - as the 49ers' fourth or fifth option. I don't think I've heard or mentioned Richard Seymour's name since the Patriots surprised a lot of people by trading him to Oakland. Matt Cassel has been an embarrassment for the Chiefs. The only guy I can think of who left New England and then continued performing at an excellent level is a kicker.

There's probably somebody else I'm overlooking to the contrary, but overall the Patriots have a pretty good history in this area. This is a two-year contract for relatively little money - where were the bigger offers for Welker if he's such an irreplaceable guy? You don't think the Pats could match that if they thought they'd be lost without him? I think Tom Brady just agreed to slash more from his pay for the coming season alone than the total value of Welker's deal with Denver. I would say I'll wait and see how Welker does in Denver, but I'm sure he'll put up decent numbers, because he'll go from Brady to Manning flinging the ball his way.

EDIT: Just to clarify/self-correct, I said "five years ago" regarding Welker, but he was there six years in actuality. So yeah.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 14.3.13 1250)
Spaceman Spiff
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.43
Welker was #1 in receptions and #2 in yards for the Dolphins in 2006, as well as the main PR & KR, so I don't know if "basically just a punt returner" is quite accurate. I also question your earlier assertion that he was on the verge of being cut before NE traded for him. He was a RFA and Miami offered him a 1 year deal for $1.35M, not to mention why would NE trade for him if he was just going to be cut?



JayJayDean
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.08
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    Welker was #1 in receptions and #2 in yards for the Dolphins in 2006, as well as the main PR & KR, so I don't know if "basically just a punt returner" is quite accurate. I also question your earlier assertion that he was on the verge of being cut before NE traded for him. He was a RFA and Miami offered him a 1 year deal for $1.35M, not to mention why would NE trade for him if he was just going to be cut?


Barnwell asserted that the Patriots were going to offer Welker a 7 yr/$39 mil contract that Miami wouldn't have been able to match (giving the Dolphins the 2nd-round pick as compensation because White Wes was an RFA) but agreed to throw in the 7th-rounder to make it a trade instead. So Welker wasn't getting "cut".

You will find no bigger Patriots fan than me, and I think this is fine. I loved Welker but Amendola is younger and bigger (and possibly cheaper). As usual, the Patriots are paying a guy for what they think he WILL DO rather than what he has ALREADY DONE. The Wes Welker-centric offense wasn't without its problems.

Having said that...Denver? Really??



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TheBucsFan
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    Welker was #1 in receptions and #2 in yards for the Dolphins in 2006, as well as the main PR & KR, so I don't know if "basically just a punt returner" is quite accurate. I also question your earlier assertion that he was on the verge of being cut before NE traded for him. He was a RFA and Miami offered him a 1 year deal for $1.35M, not to mention why would NE trade for him if he was just going to be cut?


It's possible I'm remembering wrong regarding him about to be cut, but he had 600 yards and one touchdown receiving in his final year with the Dolphins. Being their No. 1 guy wasn't saying much. I may be exaggerating the situation with "just a punt returner" but the overall point that he didn't become "Wes Welker" until be arrived in New England is indisputable. He had 96 catches in three years on Miami's roster; he had 112 in his first year as a Patriot.

EDIT: According to Wikipedia, it was before his final season with the Dolphins that people were speculating Welker would be cut, so I was off by a year.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 14.3.13 1359)
dMr
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.66
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    It's possible I'm remembering wrong regarding him about to be cut, but he had 600 yards and one touchdown receiving in his final year with the Dolphins. Being their No. 1 guy wasn't saying much.

Yep, his numbers in his final season with Miami were comparable to Amendola's last year - and Amendola had the excuse of being injured for five games. Being the #1 receiver for the Dolphins at the time wasn't exactly a badge of honour or anything. I (sadly) remember there was a time when Todd Pinkston was a #1 receiver for the Eagles, but....

Personally I think Amendola's one of the most quietly awesome receivers in the league and he's going to pretty much the ideal team for a player with his skill set. About the only knock on him is he's had a couple of injuries but I'm not convinced those weren't just shitty luck on his part rather than signs he'll be injury prone in years to come.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    The only guy I can think of who left New England and then continued performing at an excellent level is a kicker.

Only other guy I can think of is Asante who I think was as good in Philly as he was in NE. Other than that, ex-Pats don't look so good on other teams, though they can apparently later go back and look not bad (Branch) which lends weight to your "these guys know what they're doing" theory.


JayJayDean
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.08
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      The only guy I can think of who left New England and then continued performing at an excellent level is a kicker.

    Only other guy I can think of is Asante who I think was as good in Philly as he was in NE. Other than that, ex-Pats don't look so good on other teams, though they can apparently later go back and look not bad (Branch) which lends weight to your "these guys know what they're doing" theory.


It is still my opinion that Good Matt Cassel was fine in Kansas City, and he was more Good MC than Bad MC until Romeo Crennel showed up. But generally speaking the reason guys become ex-Patriots is because Belichick thinks that is a better option than having them continue to be Patriots.



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dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.66
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    It is still my opinion that Good Matt Cassel was fine in Kansas City, and he was more Good MC than Bad MC until Romeo Crennel showed up. But generally speaking the reason guys become ex-Patriots is because Belichick thinks that is a better option than having them continue to be Patriots.

Eh, he only really had one good season after leaving so I fear we're stretching it.

Speaking of stretching it, there's always Dan Klecko who picked up his third (!) Super Bowl ring the year after leaving NE for Indy. Even scored a TD against the Pats that year IIRC.

And then went to Philadelphia and promptly stopped winning Super Bowls :(
JayJayDean
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.08
    Originally posted by dMr
    Eh, he only really had one good season after leaving so I fear we're stretching it.


Fair point. In my mind I had included his New England playing time as "Good Matt Cassel" but obviously that doesn't apply when he was still on the damn team.



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Spaceman Spiff
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.43
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      It's possible I'm remembering wrong regarding him about to be cut, but he had 600 yards and one touchdown receiving in his final year with the Dolphins. Being their No. 1 guy wasn't saying much.

    Yep, his numbers in his final season with Miami were comparable to Amendola's last year - and Amendola had the excuse of being injured for five games. Being the #1 receiver for the Dolphins at the time wasn't exactly a badge of honour or anything. I (sadly) remember there was a time when Todd Pinkston was a #1 receiver for the Eagles, but....

Welker was the #3 WR for Miami that year behind Marty Booker & Chris Chambers.



dMr
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.66
    Originally posted by Spiff
    Welker was the #3 WR for Miami that year behind Marty Booker & Chris Chambers.

Can't speak for TheBucsFan, but pretty sure we were both talking #1 in terms of yardage, for that was the frame of reference you used.
Spaceman Spiff
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.43
#2 in yardage, actually. I was just trying to point out he was #2 in yards & #1 in receptions despite being the #3 WR, which disputed the claim that he was "basically just a punt returner" before going to the Pats.



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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    #2 in yardage, actually. I was just trying to point out he was #2 in yards & #1 in receptions despite being the #3 WR, which disputed the claim that he was "basically just a punt returner" before going to the Pats.



1) I already admitted that was an exaggeration.

2) It's called hyperbole.

3) According to ESPN's stats, Welker was first in receptions and second in targets (ahead of Booker but behind Chambers) for the Dolphins that year. You calling him the No. 3 receiver seems pretty arbitrary.

4) You're still not addressing the fact that he had more catches in one year as a Patriot than in three years as a Dolphin. Unless you're arguing that Welker's performance in New England was at all expected based on his performance in Miami, all you're doing is nitpicking.
Spaceman Spiff
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.43
3) According to pro-football-reference.com (pro-football-reference.com) Welker started 2 games, while Chambers started 16 and Booker 14, so that makes him the #3.

4) He went from a run oriented offense in Miami with such QB's as Gus Frerotte, Sage Rosenfels, Joey Harrington, and Daunte Culpepper to Tom Brady and a pass oriented NE, so of course he's going to have more catches in NE. Not to mention he was just breaking into the league with Miami, so he wasn't going to be a focus of the offense like he would be in NE. Also, NE was clearly impressed with him in Miami (usatoday30.usatoday.com), so they were banking on getting a valuable offensive weapon.

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 15.3.13 1017)


hansen9j
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    He went from a run oriented offense in Miami with such QB's as Gus Frerotte, Sage Rosenfels, Joey Harrington, and Daunte Culpepper to Tom Brady and a pass oriented NE, so of course he's going to have more catches in NE.
JJD can correct me if I'm wrong, but New England didn't really become a pass-oriented offense *until* they got Welker and Moss. Take these stats with a grain of salt (because you run the ball when you have the lead), but the 2006 Miami Dolphins had 591 pass attempts and 402 rushes, and the 2007 Patriots had 527 & 499. Let's put it this way: if Wes Welker was a Patriot in 2006, he would have been ranked exactly the same (first in catches, second in yards), and by basically the same margin.



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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.08
    Originally posted by hansen9j
      Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
      He went from a run oriented offense in Miami with such QB's as Gus Frerotte, Sage Rosenfels, Joey Harrington, and Daunte Culpepper to Tom Brady and a pass oriented NE, so of course he's going to have more catches in NE.
    JJD can correct me if I'm wrong, but New England didn't really become a pass-oriented offense *until* they got Welker and Moss. Take these stats with a grain of salt (because you run the ball when you have the lead), but the 2006 Miami Dolphins had 591 pass attempts and 402 rushes, and the 2007 Patriots had 527 & 499. Let's put it this way: if Wes Welker was a Patriot in 2006, he would have been ranked exactly the same (first in catches, second in yards), and by basically the same margin.


That's a fair assessment. The pre-Welker & Moss Patriots had Reche Caldwell as the leading pass-catcher with 61 receptions and Corey Dillon + Laurence Maroney combining for 1557 rushing yards and 19 TDs. The next year Tom Brady threw 50 TD passes.

And we knew we'd like Welker when we got him but I think anybody saying they thought nearly 700 catches in five years was going to happen is lying, if for no other reason than the pre-2007 offense gave no indication of what was to come.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57


This isn't just directed at you individually, and it's a bit of a tangent, but I think "starts" in football are meaningless. Isn't this basically just whoever happens to line up in whatever formation the team calls its first play from?

Welker had more balls thrown his way than Booker did, regardless of who happened to be out there on the first play of the game (or whatever arbitrary means is used to decide who "starts"). He was the Dolphins' No. 2 option that year, or at worst it was a tossup between him and Booker (98 targets for Welker, 90 for Booker, according to ESPN).

EDIT: The only positions where "starts" mean anything to me is in spots where one player typically plays every play, or close to it - quarterback, offensive line, running back in most offenses. Come to think of it, it's pretty much receiver and in some circumstances running back where starts don't make much sense as a stat, because of the heavy rotation of players there. Obviously not "starting" didn't prevent Welker from getting more balls thrown his way and putting up better numbers than Booker that year.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 15.3.13 1202)
hansen9j
Andouille








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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    And we knew we'd like Welker when we got him but I think anybody saying they thought nearly 700 catches in five years was going to happen is lying, if for no other reason than the pre-2007 offense gave no indication of what was to come.
It's really amazing that a significant part of Brady's career was "gritty winner who doesn't have flashy numbers but gets the job done, damnit".



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The comprimise makes more sense, than my memory of the arbitrator's ruling, thanks for clarifying that. As for whether or not the Raiders talked to Seymour prior to the trade, there are conflicting reports there.
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