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The W - Pro Wrestling - WrestleMania 22 Q'n'D results - and discussion (Page 5)
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J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
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#81 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
X-E's co-Worst Poster of all time! JKyle.com says:

    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by MonteCarl
      Love him or hate him, there's no denying that fans are always in to a John Cena match. The crowd is always electric during his matches with alternating chants and cheers and boos. When was the last time you've seen a crowd so in to any match? It's such a great an interesting dynamic and that's what makes a John Cena match fun. People haven't been this in to cheering or booing somebody so wholeheartedly as they have in years. I think it's great.


    Yep.
I believe we've had this discussion before...

But you and Carl seem to forget when the crowd sat on their hands for Cena at the last Mania.

I don't think he's hurting business, nor is he the worst guy in the company, but I do think something needs to change. Hell I don't even care if he keeps the belt at this point. If people want to boo him, let them boo him.

Quit booking him like Superman because he's not Hogan. And I'm not condoning turning HHH face or anything that won't work long term. Let Shawn chase him. Let Carlito (they are arch enemies... remember?). Let Kane. Big Show. Turn Shelton. Raw isn't lacking faces to challenge him.\

And oldschool... don't give me the "they're giving the fans what they want" shit. It's always been a combination of what the fans want and what they think is good for us, leaning towards the latter.

The fans didn't want Jericho and Christian sent into exile.

The fans didn't want RVD to be lost in the midcard.

The fans didn't want Benoit to stop fighting Shawn and HHH so he could drop the belt to Orton.

And you can dig for all the posts in the world, you won't find any where I was clamoring for a Cena reign. You WILL find some where I was being a dick about Cena but I was being realistic.

As it stands now there is something fundamentally wrong with the dynamic of all the main events Cena is in because of his alignment and the way he's booked... and you can't blame the smarks or the heel lovers because I have a feeling more than just the damn internet has been sitting in these arenas for months. You can't blame Cena because he's doing the best he can.

You CAN blame creative for being stubborn as a damn mule and making us exchange these words.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#82 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46

    I believe we've had this discussion before... But you and Carl seem to forget when the crowd sat on their hands for Cena at the last Mania.


This right now is a different animal though. Something born of the last six months and mostly the last four. I'm not arguing that it's currently ideal or that if they just keep doing what they're doing that they're going to succeed. I'm saying that genuine passion = great and you have to find the right way to harnass it, and it's not just as simple as turning him heel.


    you can't blame the smarks or the heel lovers because I have a feeling more than just the damn internet has been sitting in these arenas for months.


Without question.
oldschoolhero
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Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#83 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
    Originally posted by AngryJohnny
    As it stands now there is something fundamentally wrong with the dynamic of all the main events Cena is in because of his alignment and the way he's booked... and you can't blame the smarks or the heel lovers because I have a feeling more than just the damn internet has been sitting in these arenas for months. You can't blame Cena because he's doing the best he can.

    You CAN blame creative for being stubborn as a damn mule and making us exchange these words.


I never claimed otherwise. It's not even the Cena situation that I find particularly out-of-whack. Whilst I do think the booing of him has less to do with genuine perceptions of his shortcomings and more to do with a pack mentality, you're right-if they wanna do this properly, they need to manipulate Cena into a slow, full-blown heel turn without it being too rushed or obvious. But it's becoming a trend for dickish crowds like Chicago to boo people like Trish and Rey, and to cheer people like Triple H for no good reason. And you can give me all the bullshit justification in the world for it, but to me it smacks of being contrary for the Hell of it. I mean, Mickie's easy enough to explain-she's a psychopathic lesbian, and the WWE faithful have never been shy about cheering something as salacious as that-but cheering Orton over Rey? Come on. It undermines the product. Orton and HHH don't work as faces, and Rey would never work as a heel, and yet you get people treating their matches as if they are exactly that. And there's no decent reasoning behind it. I know fans have the supposed right to cheer and boo whatever the Hell they want, but it 's starting to get to a point where the exercising of that right seems to happen just for the sake of wanting to fuck around with what the company is trying to accomplish.

I guess what I'm saying is, if the fans want the fed to put real intelligence and care into constructing their shows, then I don't think it's too much to ask that those same fans provide a fraction of the same when it comes to deciding how to respond to those same shows. Neither side owes the other anything in this situation, and it's about time both realised that.

(edited by oldschoolhero on 5.4.06 0602)


To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
Destrucity
Boerewors








Since: 21.4.04
From: New York, NY, USA

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#84 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.12
You know why fans today are booing Rey and Trish? It's because of something that's been brewing for more than 10 years now, ever since people started turning on Hogan: Fans hate having something shoved down their throats. If I still attended live events, I'd boo Cena because I think he sucks. But I bet you that's only part of the reason the fans are booing Cena. It's probably about 33 percent he sucks, 33 percent everybody else is doing it, 33 percent you can't tell me what to think, and 1 percent mathematical perfectionism. You take me to a show, no way I'm going to boo Rey, nor even Trish, with whom I'm much less in love than the average Internet-savvy fan. But that's because I don't care so much about the throat shoving (at least now -- I would have cared much more when I was 17, which is probably telling considering the average age of a WWE fan).

They booed Rey and Trish because they Question Authority. That's the reason behind it. Ain't nothing wrong with that. It's not a new concept, as indicated by my dramatic caps, and it's not going to go away, so WWE had better find a way to deal with it. It ebbs and flows with time. I guess it's just bigger now, at least among wrestling fans. Bush-second-term cynicism, maybe.

I would suggest WWE is going to have to change how they sell the wrestlers. The last time they rejiggered this was when Austin caught on. Before Austin, even when someone had been the biggest asshole in the world as a heel, he was going to slap those fans' hands on the way to the ring once he turned. Austin didn't do that because they knew the fans liked him because he didn't, not in spite of the fact that he didn't. Today, Rey loves the fans and the late Eddie and Trish is just so perfect and happy to be there. Maybe we're once again at a place where nobody wants to see that.

Anyway, nothing is ever the fans' fault. Ever. The product is there for the fans, not the other way around.



Sir, a jelly donut, sir!
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#85 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.49
    Originally posted by Destrucity
    You know why fans today are booing Rey and Trish?


I simply blame their opponents.

Angle is just that awesome in performance and presentation as a funny, intense mat technician.

Mickie (and I am in no way her biggest fan) owned that match with a variety of leg holds and outrageous behavior. Trish was due to lose that belt, and the crowd smelled the defeat.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker

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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#86 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.31
Mickie was over due to, as I said, being a psychopathic lesbian. It's in part why I balk at all these convoluted psychologal motivations assigned to fans' reactions by some here. They cheer for tits. They cheer for blood. A wrestling audience the size of WWE's is, by and large, lowbrow.

Now I'm sorry if this offends people here, or gets me labelled as an elitist, and I know that wrestling fans cannot stand criticism in any way, but given all these base reactions, I find it hard to believe that Cena, Rey, et al get booed, and Orton, Hunter et al get cheered, due to them wanting to rebel against authority. They're doing it because they think it's clever, and it makes them the focus of the show as opposed to the performers.

[QUOTE]Anyway, nothing is ever the fans' fault. Ever. The product is there for the fans, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

Absurd. The fed puts out hours of free entertainment, for a majority of fans who've probably never put a tangible amount of money in their pocket, and they STILL owe the fans more? What a childish and egocentric view of things.

Oh, and booing Rey for respecting Eddie's memory and winning the title in his name is as asinine and unpleasant as Randy Orton saying Eddie's in Hell. I don't care how rebelious it is or how much it sticks it to The Man, it's cynical Gen-X bullshit of the worst kind.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
Destrucity
Boerewors








Since: 21.4.04
From: New York, NY, USA

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#87 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.12
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Mickie was over due to, as I said, being a psychopathic lesbian. It's in part why I balk at all these convoluted psychologal motivations assigned to fans' reactions by some here. They cheer for tits. They cheer for blood. A wrestling audience the size of WWE's is, by and large, lowbrow.
All true, but why do fans boo? You can cheer for heels without booing the babyfaces.


    I find it hard to believe that Cena, Rey, et al get booed, and Orton, Hunter et al get cheered, due to them wanting to rebel against authority. They're doing it because they think it's clever, and it makes them the focus of the show as opposed to the performers.
Even if that's true, who cares? How are you going to make them stop?



    [QUOTE]Anyway, nothing is ever the fans' fault. Ever. The product is there for the fans, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

    Absurd. The fed puts out hours of free entertainment, for a majority of fans who've probably never put a tangible amount of money in their pocket, and they STILL owe the fans more? What a childish and egocentric view of things.
As you yourself said earlier, nobody owes anybody anything. WWE has to give the fans more not because it's their moral duty but because it's good for Vince McMahon's wallet. What's at work here is pure capitalism. Years ago, Verne Gagne believed that it was somehow unethical to emphasize flashy theatrics over good, solid technical wrestling. Were his values right? Were they wrong? It doesn't matter, because this past weekend, he had to kowtow before the company that now owns everything he worked so hard for. Verne Gagne is a WWE Hall of Famer because of his contributions to professional wrestling, but you won't see him inducted into any business Hall of Fame anytime soon.

You describe my point of view as "childish and egocentric," but I would suggest it's just plain na´ve to think that anything, absolutely anything Vince McMahon does is out of the goodness of his heart. Though the character he plays on TV is primarily just a character, I strongly suspect he would admit as much to you if you were to ask him in person. Vince and many of the people who work with him do love wrestling, there's no doubt about that -- but they love money more. Verne Gagne loved wrestling more.

WWE's free TV shows are not a public service. They're part ad-revenue generator, part program-length advertisement for house shows, PPVs and merchandise. If WWE could double their operating profit by charging $100 for Raw and Smackdown every week, you'd better believe they would.


    Oh, and booing Rey for respecting Eddie's memory and winning the title in his name is as asinine and unpleasant as Randy Orton saying Eddie's in Hell.
You won't find me arguing that. I love Rey and would let him keep the title until Wrestlemania 23 if it were up to me. Too bad I'm not the average fan. And too bad I'll never be a billionaire.



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flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

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#88 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.82
Fans will cheer wrestlers if they're cool and tough.

Cena: not cool, not tough. Not even portrayed as such.
Rey: Goofy guy in a mask who buddies up to bigger men. Shoots blanks and had to raise Eddy's kid (in storyline.) Used friend's death to maneuver into title shot, didn't even earn title shot after losing it to Orton and was appointed in match b/c Teddy felt bad for him.
Trish: Led Mickey on, not down with hot, kinky lesbo sex, friends with the skanky Ashley, dated a douchebag named Jack.


Mr Tuesday
Kolbasz








Since: 6.1.02
From: Chicago, IL

Since last post: 867 days
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#89 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.69
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Mickie was over due to, as I said, being a psychopathic lesbian.

Two months ago, people were claming for Trish to turn heel for being annoyed by a superfan. Chicago still wanted that. Trish should have been the heel and Mickie the face, and we let WWE know that they messed up.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Oh, and booing Rey for respecting Eddie's memory and winning the title in his name is as asinine and unpleasant as Randy Orton saying Eddie's in Hell. I don't care how rebelious it is or how much it sticks it to The Man, it's cynical Gen-X bullshit of the worst kind.

*Sigh* Using the death of your friend to further your own carrer is not honoring, it's profiting.

We go by what we see on Tv. And what we see is Rey Misterio playing the Eddie card when something doesn't go his way. "I lost my title shot, would Eddie want that?"

We didn't see anything like this when Owen Hart died. We didn't see anything like this when Mr Perfect, Rick Rude, Big Boss Man, or Crash Holly died.

I don't think anyone would have minded if it was Chavo in Rey's spot. At least Chavo's related to Eddie.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#90 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.31
That's just blatantly untrue. When did Rey EVER say that "Eddie wouldn't have wanted me losing my title shot"? He came out, apologised for letting Eddie and the fans down, and then Teddy made his executive decree. And the fans CHEERED.

Also, no-one but a few people on internet message boards has ever clamoured for Trish to be turned heel during this storyline. If you can point me to one, just ONE, crowd reaction prior to Sunday that painted Mickie as the face and Trish as the heel, there'd be a sliver of a point there. But it never happened.

And using Eddie's death to further his career? What planet are you on? Do you REALLY think Rey is secretly thankful that Eddie died because he's World champ now? Or do you think he genuinely sees this as a way of both he and the company paying respect to the man? You can question the company's motives, but the minute you, as a fan who knows nothing about what goes on backstage or in these guys' heads, start second-guessing Eddie's best friend's motivations based on what you see on TV.....well, that's wrong, and as cheap and selfish as the fed exploiting him. Believing that YOU know how to honour Eddie better than his best f'ing friend is egocentrism of the highest order.

Good points, Destrucity. I guess I see the current trend of "we'll do what we want, it's up the fed to put on a show that bends to our every whim" approach from many fans to be really babyish. And, I might add, a tad hypocritical. It makes the company's job inifinitely harder, and seems designed to result in more complaining when things don't go exactly the crowd's way. They're TRYING to put on a show that entertains us here. Throwing it back in their faces in such a harsh manner, in a way that is pretty much directly aimed at the on-air performers, solves nothing about the grievances that people may have. You really don't like the product? Don't buy a ticket. Stop putting money in their pocket, because then they've already got you.

(edited by oldschoolhero on 6.4.06 0302)

To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 3037 days
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#91 Posted on
Woah, woah, woah, oldschoolhero. Mr. Tuesday was clearly talking about Rey Mysterio the character--in fact, in your first paragraph, *you* were clearly talking about Rey Mysterio the character. But then you took offense as though Mr. Teusday had said that the real guy that uses "Rey Mysterio" as a ring name was using Eddie's death to further his career. Nobody was criticizing the real guy, just making a case for why some fans might find his character "boo-able".

That said, I agree with you that the Chicago fans were crazy. Maybe Rey Mysterio's character was a little too passive in this storyline (He should have done something to *take* his shot back from Randy, rather than just have it handed back as deus ex machina) but his character would not make a good heel.

The reactions to Trish and Rey were atypical, and the reactions they get once they get to different towns will prove it, one way or the other...



"I tear my quadracep all the time! I tore it this morning, I'm fine! I'm here, I'm jumpin' around..." -- Kurt Angle
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1987 days
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#92 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.31
Precisely. He hasn't used to it to further his career, he's embarked on a mission to win the world title in honour of his lost comrade. And to me, if you feel that the real-life Rey's emotions are genuine, then supporting his on-air persona whilst he is ostensibly saying the same is a given.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
i before e
Chorizo








Since: 17.10.03

Since last post: 1400 days
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#93 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Precisely. He hasn't used to it to further his career, he's embarked on a mission to win the world title in honour of his lost comrade. And to me, if you feel that the real-life Rey's emotions are genuine, then supporting his on-air persona whilst he is ostensibly saying the same is a given.


I've been following this part of the discussion and I agree with most of whats been said here. Unfortunately, with the line between reality and story blurred so much in recent years, fans seem to be having trouble distinguishing character from person, and thus the crazy fan reactions are becoming more commonplace. We know Rey isn't writing his own story lines and probably had nothing to do with the booking of himself over the last few months, but its obvious to most fans that Rey would never have been in the WM main event, let alone the world champion if Eddie was still alive. Thats a fact. I truly believe if Eddie had lived, it would be him in Rey's position right now, so there's a good chance the bookers decided to just put Rey in Eddies spot. Also, despite the forays into tastelessness, I think the WWE has done a good job of keeping Eddies memory alive, and I'm sure this was done with the blessing of Eddies closest family and friends. However, fans will still perceive it as P-diddy level exploitation when that mob mentality gets going, especially after their emotions were heightened by the very touching HOF induction. I'm not saying Rey is exploiting Eddie in any way. I think he is genuinely concerned with keeping his friends memory alive, as are guys like Chavo, Benoit, etc. I can, however, see why fans would think Rey is exploiting him, when you factor in that blurred line.
jwrestle
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#94 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.98
A whole 168 hours later and I'm finally going to throw my thoughts into what happened at Wrestlemania. Was it all a dream? Was I really there...I had to let is soak in. It was my first one! REALLY! How many people can say they've been to Wrestlemania? Other than 93,000 at Wrestmania 3. Somebody should to the attendance math on that and get back to me on that. Ok here we go...


1... World Tag Team Champions
Carlito vs. Big Show
Chris Masters Kane

2... Kane (6'42" chokeslam -> pin) Carlito

What can I say about this match that probably hasn't already been said? Simple Big Show gets his first Wrestlemania win. That's cool, just like Carlito, because I don't think you should have a losing sreak at the biggest show of the year. At first I thought Master and Carlito were going to pull off the win but as I watched the match pyschology I could see that Big Show and Kane were going to walk out of the match still champions.

3... Money in the Bank ladder match
Matt Shelton Rob Bobby Ric
Hardy vs. Benjamin vs. Finlay vs. van Dam vs. Lashley vs. Flair

Rob van Dam (12'21")

The right person won the match the only other guy I though might have even a remote chance of winning it was Flair. That match had RVD written ALL over it.



4... John Bradshaw Layfield (9'46") Chris Benoit
JBL wins first WWE United States Championship

Simple...was rooting for Benoit yet this is where JBL should've been a year ago instead of droping the World strap to Cena. I guess its at least a bit different a pace.


5... Hardcore Match
Edge (14'37" spear from apron to floor through burning table -> pin) Mick Foley
Match was called by Joey Styles & Jerry Lawler

I saw Joey come out down the ramp and I'll have to wait until the DVD comes out to find out how the commantary turned out. This match was great and I'm glad Mick looked better in it than that match with Carlito last year at Taboo Tuesday, which becomes Cyber Sunday this year. I really wanted Mick to win but I sort of knew it was going to be a glorfied win for Edge who by the way kept his winning streak alive.

6... Handicap Match
Booker T & Sharmell vs. Boogeyman

Boogeyman (3'54" double chokeslam -> pin) Booker T

Seriously, this is when my friend I went with decided to go pee. I guess that was a good call as the Ultimate Warrior of modern day beat Booker T. He's already old, he's entrances and worms are his best thing, and can't work in the ring. I can work better than him and I haven't been in a match in over seven year.

7... Mickie James (8'49" chick kick -> pin) Trish Stratus
James wins first WWE Women's Championship

We're tired of Trish...in another wierd WWE backfire Mickie the psycho was getting cheered and Trish booed out of the building. Wow was that all white outfite a knockout for me.


8... Casket Match
Undertaker (9'26" tombstone -> rolled into casket) Mark Henry

I forgot this was even a Casket match...typical Taker match and I knew there wasn't anyway he wasn't going lose.

9... No Holds Barred
Shawn Michaels (18'26" sweet chin music -> pin) Mr. McMahon

This match was seriously good with Shawn really making the point that Vince was getting payback for all the trouble he was causing for him. I loved it and it had a great feel.



10... World Heavyweight Champion
Rey Randy Kurt
Mysterio vs. Orton vs. Angle

Mysterio (9'18" West Coast Pop -> pin) Orton

Mysterio wins first World Heavyweight Championship (12th Champion)

Jeez...this seriously should've went longer because it was out of no where when Rey Rey pulled off the 1..2...3! Man that arena erupted! Freaking felt awesome to see that happen. I hope they don't mishandle Rey as champion because I see him a the little champion with great heart.

11... Playboy Pillow Fight
Torrie Wilson (3'54") Candice Michelle

Another throw away match.


12... WWE Champion John Cena (22'04" STF/cobra clutch) Triple H

Well they had great build up for this match and everything else. I noticed on the first page of this thread that someone actually said they though it was Chicago trying to be cool cheering for Triple H and I'm here to tell you when you have people from freaking all over the world in that arena chanting for 3H. Plus it started as the arena was filling up with chant about Cena sucking. So I think it was decided that 3H was the favorite and I went with that too by the time the match started. Cena character just needs some refreshing and plus he's just not the exceptional worker we're used to seeing in the WWE. I guess that's where all the hate is coming from. With that tap out HHH ended Wrestlemania. It still feels so surreal that I was actually there. Anyways all in all Wrestlemania is the SHOW OF THE YEAR! If you ever get a chance to go see it do so or if you get it on PPV it's worth it. Namesake alone most times. I enjoyed it and hoping for another trip next year.



PS: Admins size photo if you want because I didn't feel like it because I'm apparently as tall as JBL if that board is correct.

(edited by CRZ on 10.4.06 1048)


If you can't beat'em whack'em with a chair!
FurryHippie
Frankfurter








Since: 29.10.02
From: New York

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#95 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.70
    Originally posted by jwrestle




    PS: Admins size photo if you want because I didn't feel like it because I'm apparently as tall as JBL if that board is correct.

    (edited by CRZ on 10.4.06 1048)


Hmmm....are you sure that heighr chart isn't further away in the background? Big Show looks awfully small...hehe.
jwrestle
Lap cheong








Since: 4.4.03
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#96 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.98
Nope...I'm only about, or less, foot from it. May be they miss scaled it when they made it. Also thanks for the edit CRZ.

(edited by jwrestle on 10.4.06 1324)


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