This obviously isn't what they're heading toward now, but what I'd do -- and I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see happen eventually -- is an Austin/Bret-style double turn with Cena and Angle. I think the crowd is digging Angle almost as much as they're hating Cena, and much like Austin, the more assholish he gets, the more they're going to like him. I think this is the first-ever Angle heel persona that could potentially translate into a successful babyface run. Might as well pull the trigger now. Hell, keep the belt on Cena, even, then have a face Angle chase him, perhaps culminating at Wrestlemania.
I dunno, I thought Shelton's mama kicked all kinds of ass, figuratively and probably literally. You will please note that this crowd, which some have noted had a finely tuned bullshit detector, absolutely loved her. I thought that for the first time, Shelton seemed like an actual sports-entertainment character whose merchandise people might one day want to buy and not a "real athlete." And I mean that in a good way. I believe people who say Charlie Haas can get Shelton over just about as much as I believe any hopeful comments about "finally revitalizing the tag division."
-Apparently, Shelton's Mama is Thea Vidale, from the short-lived sitcom "Thea" (which launched the career of one Brandy Norwood). The only part about her rant that made me cringe was when she started the "We Benjamins don't take ass-kickings, we give them!" line.
-Chris Masters still isn't as bad as everyone seems to think he is. At least he can have a decent match with a good opponent, and his finisher is over, which is more than you can say for oh... Tyson Tomko.
-Is Vince trying to make it look like Shawn is so jealous of Bret that he wants Vince to screw him the same way that Vince screwed Bret?
-Big Show's cast of doom was great, and HHH is apparently so mighty that he can make tables collapse just by tripping over them.
-This show needed more Carlito.
-Victoria in a Bra and Panties match? I hope she breaks everyone's fingers and goes full-bore psycho again.
-How long until Vince is so desperate to get Kurt booed that he renames him "The Golden Sheik" and renames the Angle Slam "The Golden Shower"?
-The crowd shit all over Cena's promo until he said the word "Nutsack". Is that the magic word to get you face heat when everything else you do is dying? Maybe other heatless wrestlers could use this tactic as well?
Originally posted by DestrucityThis obviously isn't what they're heading toward now, but what I'd do -- and I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see happen eventually -- is an Austin/Bret-style double turn with Cena and Angle. I think the crowd is digging Angle almost as much as they're hating Cena, and much like Austin, the more assholish he gets, the more they're going to like him. I think this is the first-ever Angle heel persona that could potentially translate into a successful babyface run. Might as well pull the trigger now. Hell, keep the belt on Cena, even, then have a face Angle chase him, perhaps culminating at Wrestlemania
I frigging love this idea, and think it would be the best of the crappy situations they have to choose from. This feud is still red hot, and I think if the fans recognize that they're going for the double switch and a 'Mania main event match, they'll start getting really pumped for the inevitable Angle win. Don't go full turn on either guy, but keep letting it go like this and drop little hints here and there that Cena is going rotten and Angle is getting favored.
The other situation I can see a positive in is a Cena/Batista unification match. I know that opens up the whole 'ending the brands' discussion, but neither guy has anything to do, so the possibility is still there.
I don't get what the WWE thinks would happen with a HHH/Cena match, especially with Cena as face. They don't want either guy as champion. I can see HHH getting some cheers for the win, but really it would be such an odd match, heatwise, to put in your main event. There's no good story to make us really pull for either guy. HHH winning the title from Cena to end WrestleMania 22 would be so lame. And I *HATE* Cena.
Originally posted by The Vile1I turned RAW off after Angle said "Screw the troops!"
Why do they keep doing this with Angle? Angle's a great heel without this bullshit. It's just Cena is a failure as a face champion.
Well, isn't all you internet fans who keep cheering the decent heels and pushing for them to become face and then abandon them because that person has become stale?
-Hogan (the nWo in WWE angle might have failed regardless, but it may have had a better chance if people had just booed like they were supposed to instead of cheering the the key heel to the whole situation) -Cena -Orton -Batista (though he's still popular, he doesn't have anywhere near as much momentum as before)
Yea, Cena sucks, but it doesn't help matters any when everyone is cheering the the person they are supposed to be booing.
Oops, I forgot...we're all marks!
I'm not saying you should just sit back and clap for everything that is fed to you, but when you're an older fan and know the nature of pro wrestling, why can't you just enjoy watching without over-analyzing every character and detail?
If you keep cheering the heels, you'll never, ever be able to build a credible heel/face dynamic for any match-up unless you're a wrestler with an already mythos (i.e. Shawn Michaels)
I consider myself an older fan, and I am sure many others do. I do not like John Cena. He does not appeal to me. I have no connection with him. I am not into rap, bad gay/dick jokes (he doesn't make them work unlike Kevin Smith whom I worship) and last of all, his in-ring skills don't do it for me. I don't care about his spots. He simply does not entertain me. (last time he did that was when his raps were somewhat cutting edge and he got under Brock's and Taker's skin) This has nothing to do with me trying to be smart, or going against the grain.
Kurt Angle on the other hand, has a long track record of being entertaining. Funny heel, vengeful heel, over the top babyface, it's been good for the most part. Plus his ring skills are amazing. For these reasons I tend to like him. Because I know he will entertain me.
How come there was such a big crowd for this show? Don't they usually draw 5 or 6000 for raw these days?
It's all wrestling. You don't understand it, you don't like it. Why should you? Wrestling is for everybody, you included, but not exclusively. It may not be your wrestling but it's wrestling to somebody somewhere.
"Now, you're just a guy. Who sucks." Sometimes, Lawler still has it. And I still think Cena is salvagable, even as a face. The problem is, they don't want to change his character at all. They keep having him do the same stuff that the crowd is obviously tired of, and expect them to react differently.
Sad that they keep shoving him when nobody seems to want him. He's entering X-pac territory.
Nah. People want to see Cena get his ass kicked, while people just don't want to see X-Pac at all. There's a difference. At this point, they should really think hard about turning him heel, although outside forces will probably dissuade them from doing so (merchandise sales, Cena's great outside-the-ring image, HHH's ego). A WM double-turn would be interesting, but I think a heel Cena w/ the belt would be the best option.
And please, please, please don't job Helms to Lawler at NYR. Please.
I thought the Edge skit was the highlight of RAW. Once again, he's asked to be the absolute heel in an angle, and he once again wins me over despite my support of the face involved. He's got the goods.
The rest wasn't so great, but it seemed bouyed by a hot crowd.
"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
I don't post much here in Wrestling anymore, but I did watch Raw last night. A couple of impressions, and reaction to the postings here.
Lawler may be an old man, but he raised up the heat right there on Helms. If he puts helms over strong and elevates him properly, maybe this is a chance for Helms to do something. The line "Now, you're just a guy. Who sucks" was classic.
The other great line of the night "Nice boobs!" by Mickie. That's another feud that is well thought out. Although it is WWE, so they might go HLA at any moment.
Cena is obviously struggling to remain face against Kurt. The fans (me included) like him from his past entertainment and disregard the troop-bashing which they (and I) know is a work. They may have to turn them both if they expect to elevate the Feud, or blow it off for good this week and put Cena up against someone who the fans won't like (Edge, maybe, or Helms if he and Lawler can make it believable).
When will the McMahon family figure out that Vince should get out of the ring? And does the new drug policy apply to him? How can we have a good screwin' with Earl working for the other company? Why no content and too many questions?
We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
Originally posted by Matt TrackerI thought the Edge skit was the highlight of RAW. Once again, he's asked to be the absolute heel in an angle, and he once again wins me over despite my support of the face involved. He's got the goods.
Yeah, I am really loving Edge these days. I only wish they would actually put him in some matches I want to see. And please tell me that they're planning on putting him over Flair. While I think that the IC title is beneath him at this point, he cannot afford to lose to an old man. I don't care if Lita cheats her little ass off to help him win, at least it's a win.
On that same note, they really need to pull the trigger on this Money in the Bank thing soon. People are going to forget all about the Matt Hardy thing (they may have already), and that's the best heat source Edge has ever had or evil will have.
EDIT: Also, Mickie James is adorable, even though she could probably beat me up. That is all.
In many ways, Cena's the closest thing that the WWE has had to the Rock since he left. A guy who's always going to be 'booed' by some section of the crowd when's he a face. He probably doesn't need the title as he's so over now with kids and females, he can feud with anyone and it will 'draw' (I'm being relative with that term). I have a feeling that once he does drop the title or turn heel, people will be cheering him again. Fans are fickle that way.
Let's also consider that it's about 50/50 crowd split on Cena haters/lovers. It's just that the Cena haters are men and tend to be loud. I've read that on house shows, where there tend to be more kids and less 'Smarks', he gets the biggest face heat by FAR.
The major problem is if he turns heel, who 'replaces' him as top face? I know, I know, Angle or Michaels, but they are combined 75 yrs old, have huge injury question marks and have failed in their previous 'face' runs as the top guy. You can't keep complaining that WWE doesn't push their young guys, and then keep falling back on the 'veterans' when things don't work out the way you want. And none of the young guys (Carlito, Masters, Benjamin) aren't ready to step up to the plate.
And holy crap, that was Thea Vidale playing Shelton's mom. She hosted the AVN awards last year and was funny as HELL. Jesus, from porn to wrestling.....
(edited by DirtyMikeSeaver on 3.1.06 0824) Watching "The Ringer" is not unlike watching porn; after about five minutes one is both supremely bored and wondering whether to be ashamed or not.
I was flipping back and forth between Raw and the "Friends" and "Family Guy" reruns on TBS.
The Edge impersonation of Flair was hilarious. My wife and I were laughing out loud.
I am tired of Angle bad mouthing the troops. I get it. he is a heel.
I thought Momma Benjamin was OK. I don't like the angle but I thought the actress was good.
Gregory Helms with no gimmick? Yawn.
Big Show: Why is he getting the Intercontinental Title shot and not me? RVD: Ahhh...maybe 'cause you're a tool. Big Show: Look. I am 7'2". I am 500 pounds. I'm a giant. RVD: Oh ok. You're a giant tool.
Contrast, for a moment, Dave Batista & John Cena. Dave Batista's been consistently booked since he debuted in the WWE as a no-nonsense asskicker. Heck, DEACON BATISTA was even booked like that, albeit much weaker. The reason fans still seem to buy Batista as a top guy is that he's always been treated with a modicum of respect. Meanwhile Cena went from "blue-chipper" to "headstrong rookie" to "angry rapping guy" to "man of the people".
Plus Batista has been booked as a killing machine in the ring. Cena's matches, on the other hand, involve him getting his ass kicked around the ring for most of the match and then mysteriously, and unconvincingly, pulling out a win. I can't be the only one who noticed how little offense he got against Angle last night, for instance.
(edited by Shem the Penman on 3.1.06 1232) "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." -- George W. Bush, Good Morning America, September 1, 2005
Originally posted by Shem the PenmanPlus Batista has been booked as a killing machine in the ring. Cena's matches, on the other hand, involve him getting his ass kicked around the ring for most of the match and then mysteriously, and unconvincingly, pulling out a win. I can't be the only one who noticed how little offense he got against Angle last night, for instance.
(edited by Shem the Penman on 3.1.06 1232)
He NEVER get's offense in because he doesn't really have any. They have booked CENA and ANGLE terrible and have done NOTHING to improve Cena in the ring. If you are going to do an extended, drawn out, these guys on each other EVERY week run with these two, there is no way one of the best wrestlers of all time is continually bested by this kid. It just doesn't fly and the fans are seeing that now. I'm sure they go with the idea that having Cena in the ring with someone like Angle makes him look better than he is, but at this point it's over kill to the point where it isn't believeable anymore. EVERYONE likes to root for the underdog, and at this point they have drawn out the fued for so long, that ANGLE is now seen as the underdog.
Isn't the PPV this Sunday? Is this the way they think they should be getting me to put my money down and buy a PPV? This crap?
To that end, Lawler in the ring will ALWAYS get my money. He's the King, baby!
Originally posted by AWArulzThe other great line of the night "Nice boobs!" by Mickie. That's another feud that is well thought out. Although it is WWE, so they might go HLA at any moment.
Did you not catch the kiss from last week, they've already done the 'HLA' part of the story.
The thing I'm hating about Cena is that, as someone mentioned above, he's looking very scarily like Rocky did before he was accepted as 'The Rock'. More boos then cheers, the ladies like him but the hardcore fans don't. He refers to himself as 'The Champ' much like Rocky called himself 'The Rock'.
I think they're trying to strike gold again with the same formula. Pretty soon, Cena's gonna come out with a line, not unlike the classic "...this isn't sing along with The Rock!", and you'll start to hear more cheers cause he's the guy we're supposed to want to be.
And I pray to the god 'OhMy' that it fails miserably.
(Funny, I just used the spell check and it wanted to change 'Cena's' to 'Xena's'. I should have allowed that.)
It's not just Cena's offense that's a problem. I think Batista's just as limited offensively as Cena -- what's he got? Spinebuster, powerbomb, walking powerslam, shoulder charges in the corner, shaking the ropes, and that's about it except for the usual array of punches, kicks, and clotheslines. And yet, no one seems to have a problem buying him.
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." -- George W. Bush, Good Morning America, September 1, 2005
I watched most of Raw, and echo those who enjoyed King's line that Helms "is just a guy...who sucks."
I don't care that much about Edge, but I did enjoy his Road Rage spoof on the Nature Boy. My buddy Chip wondered if that really was one of Ric's actual ring robes.
The Show/HHH feud is becoming mildly watchable. HHH has been better, but they seem to be using Big Show pretty well lately.
I thought the Kane/HBK match was passable, even though the Vince stuff only serves to make Kane look more like a chump. I fear that Vince is planning on getting in the ring again, this time against HBK at Mania. If so, it will undoubtedly take up to 15-20 min each week in buildup. While Michaels can carry his end of the promos, Vince is simply not believable in the ring. Chip thinks Vince is planning a swerve and will have Bret make an appearance at Mania, perhaps as a guest referee who gets to knock them both out. If so, this might be a way to get Bret in the Hall of Fame.
As far as the Elimination Chamber buildup, are they figuring that Angle, HBK, and the gimmick, will compensate for mediocre ring skills of Masters, Carlito, Kane, and Cena? I'm personally hoping Carlito gets the win, but his chances have to be far below those of everyone else save maybe Kane. Then again, since Kane has the last entrance, it's possible either Masters or Carlito won't be around by the time Kane gets in. We know Angle and HBK can go the distance, I don't feel good about the other four in a long match.
I'll tell ya, something just occurred to me about the problem with Cena as champ. I've essentially realized this before, but I've never really been able to put words to it. Let's see if I can do it now.
In storyline terms, the champion is the most unbeatable guy in the company. He doesn't have to be the best technical wrestler. He doesn't have to be an unstoppable monster. But you do have to be able to believe that, for whatever reason, nobody would be able to take that belt from him. Think about past champions, even radically different ones -- pretty much everybody who's ever been entrusted with the title comes with a implicit, plausible reason that he can't be beaten. Hulk Hogan's power and invincibility. Shawn Michaels' stamina, athleticism and creativity. Bret Hart's "excellence of execution." Austin's DTA and never-say-die attitude. The Rock's electricity. Mick Foley's ability to absorb any amount of punishment. Kurt Angle's Olympian skill. Triple H's methodical deviousness. Ric Flair and Eddie Guerrero's combination of technical prowess and opportune cheating. And yes, Batista the unstoppable monster.
What's Cena's competitive advantage? I put forth that he doesn't have one. He's not the best technically, he's not the strongest, he's not the biggest, he doesn't have the most heart. He's not supposed to be any of these things, even from a kayfabe point of view. In the ring, he's just another guy. Instead, pretty much what we get is that he's the champ because he loves his fans and makes smartass remarks, which isn't good enough. When I go back and try to think of champs who also weren't presented as being the best at something, the last guy I come up with is Jericho, whose title run wasn't particularly successful, either. (I thought of Randy Orton, too, but even he had that trained-by-the-best, young-and-hungry, supremely confident thing going.)
Insofar as they've tried at all, I think they may have been trying to give Cena the Austinesque never-say-die advantage, but either he's not good enough or his character isn't right to pull it off. It feels wrong. Until they find something that feels right, people aren't going to completely buy Cena as champ.
Originally posted by DestrucityWhat's Cena's competitive advantage?
He's got that hand-waving deal. He can become INVISIBLE! This means MONEY, Dawg!
Originally posted by AWArulz The other great line of the night "Nice boobs!" by Mickie. That's another feud that is well thought out. Although it is WWE, so they might go HLA at any moment.
Originally posted by Cerebus Did you not catch the kiss from last week, they've already done the 'HLA' part of the story.
Oh, I saw the (quasi-)HLA, but it was mostly one-sided, right? Next week, if they HLA it up, they're in the shower togther for that scene. And the King passes out.
A friend of mine whose wife doesn't care for the racier aspects of pro-wrestling cause the "nice Boobs" line last night and I think he is forever restricted from watching Raw again. My wife missed it - so I made sure to tell her about it. Full disclosure is my motto. But if they ever have a TV-MA PPV, I am there if Trish and Mickie are involved.
We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
I was hoping that somebody from the crowd would answer the Rock's question "Triple H" or somebody just to throw the Great One off. Man, Flair is a cracked out old man. When he and Vince get on the mic, they just go crazy.