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21.8.14 0713
The W - Pro Wrestling - Anyone left who's not digging Dave Batista more than Randy Orton right now? (Page 2)
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PerthHeat
Mettwurst








Since: 16.8.04
From: Perth Australia

Since last post: 2961 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.72
    Originally posted by hansen9j
    I totally dig Batista more (I've been a mark ever since the Heat before Bad Blood when he drilled Maven in the face when Maven went for a dropkick, powerbombed him, and pinned him with the fans counting along), but I think the upcoming turn will be hurt by the fake turn they just had.



I think the fake turn will be the winner in this turn. For the next year people will say, ok whens the turn happening, must be tonight, and just when people get used to it NOT been a turn they turn it back. Thats my opinion.

    Originally posted by canadian bulldog
    It's so unfortunate they've got this idea that Orton would be PERFECT to headline WrestleMania, seeing as he's been booked so poorly over the last six months. I still say Orton-HHH WOULD HAVE been great, provided (a) Orton was the heel, and HHH the face dumped by Evolution back in August and (b) they hadn't already headlined a PPV just a few months ago.

    That said, I would be extremely supportive of them changing their plans to HHH-Batista at Mania. I just don't see it happening...



I agree totally , this is how it should have been from the start , and I think they were planning it that way, until HHHs movie got shifted, I felt they could have had HHH on the outer by Orton putting pressure on the others to rebel against HHH.

But that said I am liking the direction they are taking Batista...is it because its the Orton push done better? Was Orton as we suspect pushed in to erase Brocks name and then the WWE forgot what happens after?

Should be fun to see.




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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.68
"I agree totally , this is how it should have been from the start , and I think they were planning it that way, until HHHs movie got shifted"

I know the plans originally, going back to last fall when they first made them, were for HHH to go babyface figuring he needed it to freshen up. But in the year since, with business way colder, I think he's too insecure and scared to go face. It's easier to be the heel.

"is it because its the Orton push done better?"

In large part. But Batista also has the monstrosity and a unique charisma.

"Was Orton as we suspect pushed in to erase Brocks name and then the WWE forgot what happens after?"

Obviously they thought Orton was for sure the guy, and then because he was getting face reactions against Edge they were like, hey let's just turn him now and not even bother with the angle! Instant megaface! Instead just the opposite, and they totally ruined it. Also he's just a lame babyface, at least so far, but if he had the Batista breakup angle to work from, it would've certainly gone a long, long way to helping him get over inititally as a face.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 21.12.04 0103)
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.78
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    I think he's too insecure and scared to go face. It's easier to be the heel.


Whoa there. Is it really? Anyone in the business will tell you, the heel has to "lead the dance" so to speak, has to make everyone look good while the babyface just watches as everyone flies around upside down trying to make him look like Jesus. The heel is the backbone of the feud, he controls the pace of almost every match, and it is his role to make the people want to see him beaten moreso than the face's to make them want to see him win. There have been plenty of babyface people wanted to see victorious, but the truly memorable moments come from when a hated heel stirred up enough hatred in the fans that they'd sell their souls to see him defeated.

It may be hard to be the Hogan/Austin/Rock babyface that the company seems to foolishly believe it can create whenever it wants, but it isn't that hard to be a moderately over babyface with everyone working to make you look great.

Maybe he didn't do it because he's smart. Lord knows Kurt Angle could have benefitted from a few less turns, but a new year is approaching so I guess it's time for another one. Trips is no dummy. He was last a babyface a couple years ago, and he remembers how that went. And he also realizes that if he turns face and feuds long-term with Orton, he's going to suffer because Orton can't carry them for six months on the strength of his work. Orton simply isn't good enough to be a top heel, he can't control the emotions of the fans over a long period of time and then carry his opponent to an exciting match. Triple H knew all that and probably also knew that with Rock and Austin long gone there weren't going to be any more convenient excuses to crack off for why things were falling apart.






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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.68
You're quite right and I don't disagree with any of that, but by 'easier,' I meant, most of all, more comfortable for him to play. Also, it's easier to get heat doing and saying heel things than it is to be a face and have to compel people and get them behind you. So if you're protecting your position and you want to use crowd reaction to justify it, then it's easier to get a heel reaction than a face one.

"It may be hard to be the Hogan/Austin/Rock babyface that the company seems to foolishly believe it can create whenever it wants"

That's just it. Since the internal perception (or even if it's not, you still say so) is that Triple H is by far the biggest star and best performer, then if he were to turn face, according to his reputation he'd be massively over as a face. And if he isn't (and we saw in his last run that people only kinda sorta take to him) then he's damaging that perception of him.
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.30

    Whoa there. Is it really? Anyone in the business will tell you, the heel has to "lead the dance" so to speak, has to make everyone look good while the babyface just watches as everyone flies around upside down trying to make him look like Jesus. The heel is the backbone of the feud, he controls the pace of almost every match, and it is his role to make the people want to see him beaten moreso than the face's to make them want to see him win. There have been plenty of babyface people wanted to see victorious, but the truly memorable moments come from when a hated heel stirred up enough hatred in the fans that they'd sell their souls to see him defeated.

    It may be hard to be the Hogan/Austin/Rock babyface that the company seems to foolishly believe it can create whenever it wants, but it isn't that hard to be a moderately over babyface with everyone working to make you look great.


It's also very hard to create the kind of Flair/Piper/Honky Tonky Man megaheel that WWE seems to think it can create whenever it wants. If you get a guy in there who isn't really uniquely over and shove him down people's throats by cheaply winning/getting DQ'ed in order to preserve 'heel heat,' then it just bores the fans. It's like what TNA is doing with Jarrett or what WCW tried with...well, Jarrett in its dying days, or in the 18 months of Nitro where every show ended with the nWo beating someone down and spraypainting them.

Triple H used to be a unique heel, but his character has just gotten supremely stale. He's basically JBL with a slightly higher workrate by this point.

There's certainly something to be said for putting the belt on a heel for a long time in order to build up the 'chase' aspect, but as much as he wants to believe it, HHH is certainly no Flair, or Piper or other great heel champs like Superstar Graham or Shawn Michaels. He also doesn't win enough matches cleanly to be in the same league as the 'monster' heel champs like Vader or Yokozuna. Triple H is basically Triple A, as in not-a-major-league longterm heel champ. With business as poor as it is for WWE, why not try the method of putting their world titles on faces, since you might as well give your fans a good feeling to end off a show rather than a "Damn, that boring jackass won again."



I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits." --- President Jed Bartlett, The West Wing
Phantom
Frankfurter








Since: 17.3.02

Since last post: 2312 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    You're quite right and I don't disagree with any of that, but by 'easier,' I meant, most of all, more comfortable for him to play. Also, it's easier to get heat doing and saying heel things than it is to be a face and have to compel people and get them behind you. So if you're protecting your position and you want to use crowd reaction to justify it, then it's easier to get a heel reaction than a face one.

    "It may be hard to be the Hogan/Austin/Rock babyface that the company seems to foolishly believe it can create whenever it wants"

    That's just it. Since the internal perception (or even if it's not, you still say so) is that Triple H is by far the biggest star and best performer, then if he were to turn face, according to his reputation he'd be massively over as a face. And if he isn't (and we saw in his last run that people only kinda sorta take to him) then he's damaging that perception of him.
Exactly. Itís actually a hell of a lot easier for most performers to play the villain, because itís just more fun. Youíve got the spotlight on you, and everything the hero does is in response to you. Your character is just cooler than he is, and you know it. The responsibility is on you, but itís easier to be relaxed because you get to push everyoneís buttons. Youíve got a list of guys in wrestling who made good faces but better heels: Rock, Nash, Edge, HBK, Angle, Jake the Snake, and Piper, to name a few. But the list of people who made better faces than heels is a lot shorter: Hogan, Austin, Benoit, and Eddie are the only ones I can name offhand.
GRL
Frankfurter








Since: 13.7.02
From: Austin

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.41
I would argue with you on whether or not Benoit makes a better heel or a face... much of his work as a silent heel I found very enjoyable.

I don't think I could argue or not argue with your listing of Guerrero, however... he seems to work best as neither, but rather as himself.



"Maybe I'm getting off topic, but this thread already sucks, so I don't feel bad about it. " -LotusMegami


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sentonBOMB
Frankfurter








Since: 25.11.02
From: Jersey

Since last post: 1910 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.31
    Originally posted by GRL
    I would argue with you on whether or not Benoit makes a better heel or a face... much of his work as a silent heel I found very enjoyable.

    I don't think I could argue or not argue with your listing of Guerrero, however... he seems to work best as neither, but rather as himself.


I generally have a problem with seeing Eddie as a face, but I think that's probably due to my old-school mentality; faces win fairly, whereas Eddie often cheats to win. I know I should be able to see around that, but I really can't.
kazhayashi81
Potato korv








Since: 17.6.02
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46
    Originally posted by Packman V2
    I'm going to the Live Event in Abilene between the NYRevolution and Rumble, and the announced main event is a tornado tag cage match between HHH/Edge and Benoit/Orton. Makes me wonder if this will have anything to do with RAW in the Monday before or after the Abilene show.


Hey, I'm in Midland and highly interested in that show.. but can't find any ticket info, not even on wwe.com... they say ticketmaster.com, but it doesn't have anything. Is there another site they're advertising there locally?



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geemoney
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Since: 26.1.03
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.71
I was one that was okay with the Orton turn, and certainly not one who was an Orton hater. I think he'll be a pretty big star in this business.

However, RIGHT NOW, I am certainly enjoying Batista more than Orton. His matches are usually on par with Orton, and he's certainly a better actor than Orton. He is, of course, helped out by the fact that his storyline of the slow-burn with Evolution makes more sense/is better than Orton turning face because he was kicked out of Evolution.



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Freeway
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.30
Going off of HMD's notion that the faces are really only as good as their heels:

-Hogan had Andre, the gradual turn of Savage & the explosion of the MegaPowers & the continuing heel antics of Ted DiBiase to contend with throughout his glory years.
-Stone Cold had Vince McMahon (and Kane, Foley, Undertaker), The Rock (and the Nation), DX (at their peak) to fight off.
-The Rock had Triple H (and DX, Stephanie, Shane & Vince), Chris Benoit (working on behalf of himself, HHH & Shane) and the gradual turn of both Stone Cold and Chris Jericho when he was the top face.

The problem now is they're not giving us a reason to like the faces. Randy Orton's a good guy because Evolution kicked him out, and suddenly he starts acting good. The hell? There's no continuity. Stone Cold acted the EXACT SAME when he was heel & face (at least during his first gradual turn). Ditto for The Rock. John Cena & Randy Orton are both attempts to replicate Rock & Austin, but they fail because they aren't consistent.

Conversely, the heels have better motivations. Triple H needs the title, so that puts him at odds with those he perceives as threats to his claim. Benoit wants the title, too. Their motivations are similar, but the way they go about things makes them heelish or faceish. Benoit (heel or face) always has a certain amount of stuff he'll always do during matches. However, when he's heel he'll hold the ropes or choke more or do other tiny subtle heelish tactics. Jericho & Eddie are also similar, but Eddie (face or heel) always has a base level of cheating to maintain.

In conclusion, you're only as good as your opposition, and you're only good as long as you're consistent.



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Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.78
    Originally posted by Phantom
    Youíve got a list of guys in wrestling who made good faces but better heels: Rock, Nash, Edge, HBK, Angle, Jake the Snake, and Piper, to name a few. But the list of people who made better faces than heels is a lot shorter: Hogan, Austin, Benoit, and Eddie are the only ones I can name offhand.


Of those you listed as better faces than heels, two I think are special circumstance and don't really count. Hogan and Austin were spectacular in their heel runs because they both played over-the-top paranoid champions using desperate means to hold onto what they didn't deserve: the world title. The reason they made better faces is because they were revolutionary. Their main heel runs came well after they were already clearly established as the single most important babyfaces of their eras and possibly the history of the entire business. Lightning couldn't strike twice.

Of those you listed as good faces but better heels, all but one I would suggest played non-traditional heel roles, played "cool heels". Rock was definitely a cool heel, from his expensive shirts and raybans to his cocky strut to his catchphrases, Nash was a cool heel in the nWo, Edge was a cool heel with his witty and hilarious phrases, HBK was a cool heel as the impetuous immature manchild who nonetheless was a prodigy in the ring, Jake Roberts was rarely ever riled and was constantly playing mind games, Piper at one time could out-talk anyone...Only Angle, of that list, was what I would consider a traditional heel.

Traditional heels show ass, get humiliated, sell constantly, and above all don't say anything the fans could possibly cheer. It is their job to present the intimidating and seemingly impossible odds it takes to overcome them. Ric Flair, Bret Hart in 1997, Andre the Giant in 1987, Macho Man from 85-87 and 89-91, Ted Dibiase for most of his career, Yokozuna for most of his, Vader, Rick Rude, Cactus Jack, are just some of the heels who did this so well. And all of these men were highly regarded, moreso than many of their face contemporaries.

The problem with cool heels is they totally undermine the faces, which what you had with the nWo never really getting what it deserved from WCW and even HHH hardly ever losing.

    Originally posted by Freeway
    The problem now is they're not giving us a reason to like the faces.


True, but as several of the above examples of traditional heels show, even a guy like Barry Windham or Lex Luger, who is not really a great face per se*, can be interesting against a good heel. If the heel work was better, Orton wouldn't need to be likeable.

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    It's also very hard to create the kind of Flair/Piper/Honky Tonky Man megaheel that WWE seems to think it can create whenever it wants. If you get a guy in there who isn't really uniquely over and shove him down people's throats by cheaply winning/getting DQ'ed in order to preserve 'heel heat,' then it just bores the fans.


Sure it does, but the potential is there. Angle could be a heel on that level if they just finally fuggin' figured out to write for him. Bradshaw is turning into that kind of heel, and while we can all agree he sucks in the ring, Honky Tonk Man wasn't exactly one of the Briscoes either, let's not forget. HHH could be that kind of heel if he wasn't so unwilling to put people over. Booker T, on Smackdown when he first came over, could have been that kind of heel, his work was fantastic. None of these people have the inherent charisma of, say, an Eddie Guerrero or even a John Cena that makes their conversion to face status inevitable.

I'd say it's a hell of a lot easier to make a megaheel than a megaface.

    Originally posted by Justin
    That's just it. Since the internal perception (or even if it's not, you still say so) is that Triple H is by far the biggest star and best performer, then if he were to turn face, according to his reputation he'd be massively over as a face. And if he isn't (and we saw in his last run that people only kinda sorta take to him) then he's damaging that perception of him.


So you honestly believe that if they truly thought Triple H turning could create Rock/Austin/Hogan-level business, he could just say no and that'd be it? I don't think even Trips has that much say-so. Despite their hamfisted attempts to do anything beyond mildly competent, I still think the E knows they don't have the next megastar on their hands, but sadly they seem to think repeating the paths of their previous megastars will recreate one. Triple H was around during the last boom and is probably the most famous wrestler on their roster if we're going by name recognition alone.


*I'm not accounting for in-ring ability here; if I were believe me when I tell you I'd rank Windham and Luger miles apart.


(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 22.12.04 0044)

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