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The W - Pro Wrestling - Patterson not a fan of HHH? (Page 4)
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Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#61 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.26
I think CRZ, you have to look at the two different Heyman. Heyman with backers started the new revolution in wrestling by taking some indendent wrestling done in the East Coast to a national program. He has great ideas for wrestling and I will credit for the early sucess for Smackdown during the brand split. On the other hand, you have inept Heyman who let Justin Crediable become world champ after the second most over face won the title fifteen seconds earlier. Then, we they get a TV deal, they don't belt the belt on the most over person in the company to help boost the ratings.\

Its not secret Paulie has been working with creative and I won't call Smackdown right now a blow away show, some Impact tapings look better. I think Patterson will be missed and it will affect the WWE. How bad will it affect them I don't know, I just hope it isn't long lasting.
CRZ
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#62 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.07
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I think CRZ, you have to look at the two different Heyman.
That's an "ECW true believer" statement if I ever heard one. There is ONE Paul Heyman. It's the SAME GUY. Any "Smackdown success" during ANY of Heyman's alleged tenures, as well as the "failures" when Heyman is pereceived to be absent - are exaggerated by the true believers. The numbers simply don't support the sentiment.



CRZ
knightvibe
Salami








Since: 12.7.03
From: st louis, missouri

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#63 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.56
I think during the times he is said to be involved in the creative process on Smackdown tends to be the times that more stories develop and the mid card is used better. Not only that but if yiou believe the news site reports the locker room as a whole believes in Heyman a lot like they believesd in Patterson. Patterson laid out some matches and at least the news sites say been less and less involved as of late . Of course it is CRZ board so he probably knows better than Vince or the news sites what the real deal is.



and thats all i have to say about that!
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#64 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.26
I think thats a bad generalization, eveyone has a good side and a bad side in their work. Heyman has inspired writng at times and sometimes you want to ram your head into a wall. Same thing could be said about Vince, Russo and Bischoff. Jessu, Bischoff had Vince by the throat could blow it. Paul took a struggling indendent organization and got it national exposure and had the end was getting better ratings than Nitro and technically survived a day or two longer than WCW.

I feel better with Paul writing than I do with Steph. I know it may sound like HHH hate, but I am so sick of HHH, right now it sad. I don't know if Paul would make a better advisor than Pat, but it can't be any worse than what is currently going on. It just can't.
CRZ
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#65 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.07
    Originally posted by A Fan
    Paul took a struggling indendent organization and got it national exposure and had the end was getting better ratings than Nitro and technically survived a day or two longer than WCW.
That is patently untrue on both counts.

    I feel better with Paul writing than I do with Steph.
Please tell me specifically how you can tell when something is written by Steph, or Paul, or ANYBODY in the WWE. I really would like to know how, say, watching an episode of SmackDown! at random, there is something specific you can point to and you can use it to prove to me "oh, that was written by (x)" and not be talking out of your ass.

Or are you so sure because you read it on one of knightvibe's "news sites?"
    Originally posted by knightvibe
    Of course it is CRZ board so he probably knows better than Vince or the news sites what the real deal is.
Let me put it this way. I'm not going to take a survey or anything, but I'm pretty sure my bullshit detector still works.

Spreading stuff like this around is ill-informed at best and ignorant at worst. It wouldn't hurt for a LOT of you to try harder to not automatically believe everything you read just because you WANT it to be true.



CRZ
knightvibe
Salami








Since: 12.7.03
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#66 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.56
all you can do is take the info passed along by meltzer, schearer, keller and others and hope to see through whatever negative spin they put on it and try to come up with informed opinions. It does look to me like when Heyman left the creative team last time the great matches and interesting stories were replaced by Gowen, Mr America and Steph stories. Who knows those might have been Heyman's ideas too. Do you have any insider sources that tell you what the deal is CRZ?


(edited by knightvibe on 17.10.04 2150)


and thats all i have to say about that!
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01

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#67 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.66
"had the end was getting better ratings than Nitro and technically survived a day or two longer than WCW."

Not that I didn't enjoy Paul's run as head writer on Smackdown from July '02 to February '03 a lot, but

3/3/00 highest ever ECW on TNN 1.31
3/19/01 last regular Nitro 2.14

3/5/01 ECW owner Paul Heyman takes job as announcer on Raw
3/26/01 final Nitro

(edited by JustinShapiro on 17.10.04 2219)
Dahak
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Since: 12.5.02
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#68 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.90
Those final Nitro numbers are suprising. Sure I watched it and probably everyone else did but that is pretty close to RAW's numbers now. I guess that the theory that there are 3 or 4 million die hard wrestling fans that will watch any half way presented crap is correct. Not that I think that WWE is anywhere near as bad as WCW was at the end.



Marge I am just trying to get into heaven not run for Jesus.
JustinShapiro
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#69 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.66
Actually, you made me realize I picked a bad example since the final Nitro was artifically inflated by the Last Ever hype and having Vince McMahon appearing on it and such.

"I guess that the theory that there are 3 or 4 million die hard wrestling fans that will watch any half way presented crap is correct."

The funny thing is that they were desperate enough for wrestling to watch the last 3 months of Nitro, but after it was cancelled, you can see a bump in Raw ratings where the Nitro audience goes looking for their show and their wrestlers, but it disintegrates when WWF handles the WCW storyline so badly that it finally made those diehard WCW fans want to stop watching wrestling.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 17.10.04 2221)
Tenken347
Knackwurst








Since: 27.2.03
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#70 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.85
I think the most obvious thing you see on Smackdown when Heyman has creative is more storylines in the midcard. I'm thinking specifically of the stuff he did with Shannon Moore a while back and the stuff more recently with the Dudleys. When you here from the news sites that Heyman is working with creative, these sort of things sprout up, and usually Heyman himself takes an on-air role with them. But when you hear that Heyman is off creative, they tend to dry up. It just seems to me that Heyman is far more interested in the midcard than the rest of the WWE writers. I actually seem to remember somebody important (Steph? Gewirtz?) saying that they thought the only important stories on the show were the main-event ones. That's the only real difference I notice when I hear Heyman has the book.
PerthHeat
Mettwurst








Since: 16.8.04
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#71 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
    Originally posted by Tenken347
    I think the most obvious thing you see on Smackdown when Heyman has creative is more storylines in the midcard. I'm thinking specifically of the stuff he did with Shannon Moore a while back and the stuff more recently with the Dudleys. When you here from the news sites that Heyman is working with creative, these sort of things sprout up, and usually Heyman himself takes an on-air role with them. But when you hear that Heyman is off creative, they tend to dry up. It just seems to me that Heyman is far more interested in the midcard than the rest of the WWE writers. I actually seem to remember somebody important (Steph? Gewirtz?) saying that they thought the only important stories on the show were the main-event ones. That's the only real difference I notice when I hear Heyman has the book.


Hmm Does anyone really know who wrote what..like the Beatles you credit the main guys then hear that George passed on a chord or Ringo did this...The booking in the WWE is about position and power of the wrestler, if Heyman concentrates on mid-field cards then that suggests he has mid-card influence but borrows main event ideas...each creative person would have an area to develop BUT also have the ability to pass on anything they may think of for someone else ..I certainly dont know who writes for who

On HHH-Patterson ...IMO Patterson must have known the ramifications of what he said and either there is a genuine rift between the men or Pat felt his investment was been screwed with..Or maybe Pat has been reading too many IWC forums and was passing on what the IWC feel.............................By the way VKM uses the IWC like any other marketing tool..to see how we are thinking and to tweak the product..unfortuantely we(IWC) want it now and when it takes too long to change we complain and grumble.

I dont hate HHH ...then again I dont love Benoit..I am too old to get upset over who is shafting who..bring on good stories and good wrestling



if you cant stand the heat...buy icecream
Kevintripod
Knackwurst








Since: 11.5.03
From: Mount Pleasant, Pa.

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#72 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.70
Should be interesting if Patterson gets in line and puts out a book like mostly everyone involved in wrestling does these days.



"This just got a hell of a lot better." - Stifler, American Pie
Deputy Marshall
Liverwurst








Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

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#73 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.17
In terms of being able to differentiate in booking styles, it really isn't all that difficult to pick out certain storylines or angles that were most likely written by (or at least influenced by) Heyman's booking style. Shortly after it was reported that Heyman was back on the writing team, for example, you saw Spike Dudley as a cruiserweight champ and the heel turn (and subsequent push) of Billy Kidman. I mean, you can't deny that they sold the Hell out of his match with Paul London via the video montage during the No Mercy pay-per-view, and while nobody can say for certain, it sure smells of Heyman's booking. Also, we suddenly had the return of another old Heyman trick...wrestler A is in a match with wrestler B, something screwy happens, others come out, restarted as a tag team match.

As far as Patterson goes, it'll be a shame to see him go, and he was well known for being able to effectively lay out a match. Where it's going to be important is with the newer guys they want to push to the main event (i.e. Randy Orton) who might need such assistance. You do, however, still have guys like Johnny Ace backstage who have done a superb job in some instances with laying out matches for some less-experienced workers. Hell, just look at what he was doing with the Women's Division. So, while he'll be missed, it's not like there's nobody else in the organization who can pick up where he left off.

Thecubsfan brought up a good point, on the other hand, in pointing out that Patterson could have easily just sat at home and collected checks for the rest of his life. Hell, take Arnold Skaaland for example. It IS a little disconcerting that he would leave WWE entirely. So, while it won't result in a complete deterioration of the product, it's definitely not a good sign.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 18.10.04 0332)



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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#74 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
"I mean, you can't deny that they sold the Hell out of his match with Paul London via the video montage during the No Mercy pay-per-view, and while nobody can say for certain, it sure smells of Heyman's booking."

Not really. To me it smacks more of the writing team stumbling across something good with the unfortunate Chavo injury and running with it to kill some time. There's nothing about the angle that's particularly Heymanesque-its the standard old-as-dirt feuding-partners schtick. In fact, pushing the cruisers doesn't seem to be particulrly high on his list, as when he had control of the book full-time in 2002 they were just as ignored as they are now.

"Also, we suddenly had the return of another old Heyman trick...wrestler A is in a match with wrestler B, something screwy happens, others come out, restarted as a tag team match."

Which he's managed to do to death several times over in the past week alone. There was that Raw two or three weeks ago where three tag team matches were booked on the fly. Then there's Smackdown's golden period from late 2002, which everyone seems so quick to shower Paulie with credit for. All he did there was send out a bunch good wrestlers and tell them to wrestle, and then when those matches got tired he beat them into the ground again and again and again. And then when THOSE matches got tired, he pushed A-Train and Big Show and came up with that crappy "Angle wins the title and turns heel" double cross that made no sense whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed that time frame-he managed to cram a glut of great matches into his tenure and the simplistic booking style did work for the most part-but he has just as many faults as he does perks.



Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#75 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.25
Honestly, I can't tell all the time who is writing what and honestly, neither do you. I will say there was stark differences between Smackdown and Raw when Heyman was working with Smackdown after the brand split. Smackdown emphasised more on wrestling and less on angles. The rise of the Smackdown six, Brock vs. Big Show/Taker fued. Smackdown seemed run smoothly and was enjoyable to watch. Raw was just about HHH/HBK and thats about all I remember. Raw seemed to be less focused.

When Heyman was gone, you could tell something was wrong in the midcard. On Raw, you had HHH all the time and still do. There is the telling writing difference, Smackdown under Paul was about pushing Brock. Raw under Steph is about HHH. I will say that they continued to push Brock down our throats forever where I think Paul would have made a move after Judgement Day or Backlash to start focusing on someone else. Instead like the Raw midcard, the Smackdown midcard was there and only Benoit ever got a shot at the title and that was because Kurt was champ.

I will grant you that Smackdown looks terrible to Raw now, but that has a lot to do with injuries and Brock leaving. They need another trade before the end of the year. I just can't see HHH/Orton carrying all the way to Wrestlemania and still be interesting.
JustinShapiro
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#76 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.65
"The rise of the Smackdown six, Brock vs. Big Show/Taker fued. Smackdown seemed run smoothly and was enjoyable to watch."

I definitely agree with you about that. I don't think he was a supergenius who was going to turn anything around, but ignoring the long matches (yay), Paul Heyman's Smack Down really was a well-produced, well-paced, well-laid out wrestling show. It might seem like damning with faint praise to say that Heyman actually knew how to write a basic wrestling show, but that's seriously the difference between the period with Paul as head writer and the same time period on Raw or SD after Paul was canned.

Again, this isn't pushing Heyman as genius savior of the company either. He's not. I just think there's a discernable difference between a lifelong wrestling fan in charge of the show who actually understands how wrestling angles work and someone who doesn't. It'd be the same thing if Jim Cornette was there, and it was the same thing in the awesome Raw period from January to April this year when Foley, Jericho, and HHH all took complete control over their angles to set up the Wrestlemania feuds.

"I will say that they continued to push Brock down our throats forever where I think Paul would have made a move after Judgement Day or Backlash to start focusing on someone else."

Brock was always going to be the focus of that side. The difference is what he was going to be doing. According to the WON, Heyman's vision for the show in 2003 was going to revolve around a threeway feud for the title between Lesnar, Angle, and Benoit, and the idea was for Benoit to win the title from Lesnar after Lesnar got it back at Mania to elevate Benoit to their level. After Heyman was dumped, Vince instead built the show around Vince vs. Hogan and went to Big Show, a large man, instead of Benoit as Lesnar's opponent until Kurt came back.

Now, some (weird) people might say that Heyman never actually planned to push Benoit and it's just SECRET PAUL DIRTSHEET MANIPULATION TO MAKE SMARKS LIKE HIM, but I don't think it's all that weird considering a) Paul likes Benoit, b) Paul likes having good matches on top. Still, even he had kept his job, he's still ultimately answering to Vince, so who's to say that Vince wouldn't have just been like "yeah we're going with Big Show, not Benoit" anyway, like he did when they put the belt on him in November '02 and like he did when he put A-Train in Matt Hardy's "Rey Mysterio injury angle" spot at the end of the year.

And yes, that "Angle wins the title and turns heel" double cross that made no sense whatsoever was horrible.
HMD
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
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#77 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.13
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I will grant you that Smackdown looks terrible to Raw now, but that has a lot to do with injuries and Brock leaving.


I find it impossible to believe that anyone is saying this right now. RAW has been pitiful for a long time. Yes, they had those two really hot shows when they did the trades and brought Shelton over, but that was months ago. Other than Jericho and Kane, who do their best to make the show enjoyable, it's very boring. Eugene bores me now. Benoit is directionless. There are heavy doses of Triple H and Orton, to the point that you pretty much can't enjoy the show if you don't like them. Shelton is on Heat for some reason, Edge's character is handled with delirium-level confusion and as a result he's getting X-Pac "go away" heat. The tag-team division is pitifully bad. I can't sit through RAW anymore, even the hot crowd dropped this ugly product once Regal got Dustied.

Smackdown has several great angles going, in my opinion. Big Show/Kurt has been a lot of fun, especially with Eddy in the mix, I loved the way they handled Kidman/London...and believe me, I never dreamed I could have any use for Kidman. It's been said the Kidman/London deal was handled in a very basic fashion, but the issue is whether they handle it right, and they have. Everything has been timed perfectly, the blowoff came on a PPV where it's supposed to and Kidman came out looking like he can kill anyone he wants anytime he wants with that move. Carlito already has shown more charisma and star power potential than Orton ever has. If this guy's a true rookie colour me surprised. He also had a great match with Cena last week which is amazing considering the green factor on the two of them. Speaking of Cena, he's become much more comfortable in the ring and his workrate has gotten worlds better. Making Spike the boss of the Dudleys has made them interesting for the first time in three years. Rey and RVD can't have a bad match as a tag-team. Kenzo Suzuki can actually look good when he's buried in a tag-team, which is some good work by the bookers. No Mercy was more fun than Summerslam, which you had to be an acid-dropping amoralist hippie to enjoy. Haas was doing really well in the ring until he got hurt. And soon, Chavo will be back. Booker T really has been a great heel, and he developed good chemistry with Cena in those last couple matches in their series. Other than Bradshaw being the Champion, there's nothing on Smackdown that doesn't hold my interest. And even Bradshaw is good when he's just talking.







Hot Virgins-The World's Most Steadily Shrinking Commodity
JustinShapiro
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#78 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.65
"RAW has been pitiful for a long time. Yes, they had those two really hot shows when they did the trades and brought Shelton over, but that was months ago."

I agree with you that Raw has been pitiful for a long time, and I wonder why more people don't see it. But they definitely had more than two hot shows in April. The show was really fantastically great from January through May. But ever since HHH pedigreed Michaels as the finish of the Benoit/HBK match and Benoit took his permanent backseat to their feud, the show's gotten consistently worse, first with the summer of Eugene and now with Super Cool Bad Ass Randy.
A Fan
Liverwurst








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#79 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.25
I actually liked the summer of Raw better than Smackdown's summer of suck. I was compelled by Eugene till his psuedo heel turn. I don't know why, but I enjoyed it. When Smackdown put the belt on JBL, I just couldn't take it and was glad to miss most of their shows due to work. I do agree both shows feel stangent and need another trade or shake-up. I do think it will happen to Raw after Patterson leaves, so I'm curious to see what happens in the next few weeks. I just feel that Paul would have booked HHH/Orton better than the current writers. I mean we have to wait six months for a resolution to this angle, you have got to be kidding me? Orton is not poping the crowd as much as HBK, Jericho or Benoit. It makes no sense and I hope it ends soon.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








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#80 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    He also had a great match with Cena last week which is amazing considering the green factor on the two of them. Speaking of Cena, he's become much more comfortable in the ring and his workrate has gotten worlds better.

I take issue with these 2 statements. The Carlito/Cena match was pretty bad, mostly because Cena was on offense for most of the match. Rey/Carlito was worlds better, although it was still just an average match.

As for Cena, his workrate has steadily regressed. It seems he's more focused on his promo's now than his ringwork (which is pretty bad, since his promos have gone down the drain, too). His heel work was pretty good, and he was still good when he 1st turned face, but after that, he's really gone downhill. I actually enjoyed his matches w/ Booker, but everything outside of that has been sub-par. He's shown he can be good, but all his matches seem to be now are a bunch of nothing until he can reel off YCSM-5KS-FU.

And SD has been loads better than Raw for the last 2-3 months.



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- tomk, H.B. Cade (2004)
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