Originally posted by fuelinjectedShe looks VERY sloppy with everything she does and looks like she's going to hurt somebody bad.
I thought for sure she landed full force on Trish's head doing that suicide dive to the outside (she may well have, and Trish's was just able to shake it off). The 1st time she teased doing it, I thought to myself "oh, no, nothing good can come from that". Sure enough, she went and did it, landing right on Trish's grill.
Originally posted by sergeialMy take on this (and I doubt many will agree, but anyhoo) is that what Lita needs to do is wrestle a big-man style, a la Goldberg or Bradshaw, and drop the Lucha shit.
She weighs less than Spike Dudley, and you want to see her using Goldberg-style power moves? Who's she going to be tossing around, seventh-graders?
No, the other women wrestlers. I believe she is taller than all of the women on the roster, except maybe Victoria. Jazz probably outweighs her, despite being quite a bit shorter, because of the muscles, but I think she probably has the weight advantage over the rest.
Besides she already wrestles a very impact-oriented style, she just needs to drop the lucha and add a slam-type finisher like Jazz and Vic have.
And if the Spike thing comes from "official" figures, try to remember that women lie about their weight, and small men do, too-- but in the opposite direction.
"A true champion knows how to deal with adversity."-- Kurt Angle
While I like Lita, I have to agree that her wrestling ability has gone waaay downhill. but like it's been said, She's popular and there are even some in the audience who think she's still great. What Lita needs is a long program with Ivory (who needs to come back) that will really kick her in the pants to improve. I think she can do it, she just needs to be challenged.
Her wrestling ability hasn't gone downhill, it was never really up. Her suckiness is just more obvious now that she's going up against women who CAN actually work. What Lita really needs, is some extensive training time(if Ivory can help her it should happen behind the scenes). I mean, I never thought the day would come when I'd give anything even resembling a compliment of Trish's ring work, but quite frankly it should be Lita hanging around in Trish's current valet role, and Trish in the ring. Don't get me wrong, both look like they play natural skanks(in their own ways), I'm merely asking to reverse the wrestling roles.
I never have and never will understand Lita's massive appeal. So she's got a little Hot Topic wardrobe, and so she does some moonsaults and huricanranas(hello, Alundra Blayze)...and not even accurately. Aesthetically even, I see everyday women who are naturally prettier. Hey, props to all those people who manage to ignore the man jaw, squishy, blood-shot eyes and robotic voice. I won't stoop so low as to put down people for their tastes, whatever floats your boat but I honestly could never understand why there was ever a big deal over her. I respect that she's been able to garner some kind of following and atleast *attempt* to re-jumpstart women's competition in the WWF, but she's so incredibly flawed in every way that it amazes me she got anywhere.
I think darkmatcher is right in that Lita was never really good in the ring, but she was at least fearless. I think the crowd fed off that and they'd overlook her flaws in execution. Now she lacks that confidence, and so has to rely more on staying on the mat, where she was never good in the first place. So, she's seems too scared to fly and lacks the training to wrestle the newer style that Fit Finlay has introduced to the women. In other words, she's screwed. Of course, she was so damn popular the first time around that the writers want to keep her on tv as she's likely more over than any of the current face divas. I have no idea how even Fit Finlay fixes this mess...
"Naughty by Nature, Evil by Choice!" Evil Buddha... Wrestling Fan, Bud Man
"I never thought the day would come when I'd give anything even resembling a compliment of Trish's ring work"
Whyzcome? She's terrific.
"so she does some moonsaults and huricanranas(hello, Alundra Blayze)..."
Alundra Blayze never did that. She did a German suplex. Lita was the first woman on a national stage in this country to do highspots, and she had a really unique look because almost every other woman on the roster at the time was a porn blonde. It's pretty easy to see why she got massively over. She even headlined a Raw with Stephanie McMahon (well, the Rock was there too) and funnily enough I think it was the last time Raw ever did rating in the 6's.
Not that Lita isn't a very terrible wrestler, but if she was the HHH of the women, then she probably wouldn't have disappeared from TV for the majority of the last 3-4 months before she won the battle royal last week. Does that make Matt Hardy Stephanie McMahon, btw? Because the two couples are about as far apart in the spectrum as you can get in terms of influence.
(Neverminding the fact that Victoria is probably being pushed as the top woman face right now not because she's a good worker, but to set up a crosspromotion with the women's champion appearing in Playboy.)
Originally posted by JMShapiro"Alundra Blayze never did that. She did a German suplex. Lita was the first woman on a national stage in this country to do highspots, and she had a really unique look because almost every other woman on the roster at the time was a porn blonde.
The German suplex was Alundra's finisher, but she did do plenty of, and much better looking hurricanranas(though admittedly, not the diving one. But Lita's was horrible looking and annoyingly spotlight stealing. Guess some people buy that.) And even Sable did a hurricanrana..so did Jacqueline. And I could have sworn I'd seen Alundra do a moonsault. Just to make sure I checked a review of her matches and she did indeed do atleast a standing moonsault in a Survivor Series '95 match. Point is she was a better wrestler, equally athletic and also pulled off high-spots.
But I do suppose that since there weren't as many viewers during her era, that a lot of Lita marks couldn't possibly have been aware of her, or the Jumping Bomb Angels. Especially since they weren't given Lita's push and treatment. Besides, Lita was a ~Rock grrl! Oh well.
Oh and I didn't actually agree on Lita being the HHH of women's wrestling, but I do think she's the most overrated woman wrestler ever.
Marco: But we can chew nails and shoot 'em out as bullets, right? Quinn: Nails, chains -- you won't have titanium teeth for nothing. Murphy: Nails are like candy to robots! And we'll eat tires instead of licorice. Debbie: GAH! No we won't!! Murphy: Maybe YOU won't.
Man, I don't even like Lita, but it's sure gonna sound like true love.
"[Alundra and] even Sable did a hurricanrana..so did Jacqueline."
Chyna too. Totally forgot about Blayze doing frankensteiners, my bad. But even with that and the standing moonsault (if she even did it in more than one match which was specifically supposed to showcase Japanese women doing hot moves), it's not really the same as Lita doing a rana jumping off the top rope, plus moonsaults, on a weekly basis.
"But Lita's [diving rana] was horrible looking ..."
Well, the quality varied (and probably got progressively worse). The moonsault was almost always scary-looking, from what I remember. But that's not really the point. The point is that she was doing them, which was pretty amazing to the people watching because it was unheard of.
"... and annoyingly spotlight stealing."
I don't know whose spotlight it was stealing. The Hardys? They were all the same act, and adding her only made the boyz more over. The match? Is setting up a spot that gets a big pop a bad thing?
"Guess some people buy that."
Well, what was their alternative? Manami Toyota tapes?
"Especially since they weren't given Lita's push and treatment."
Blayze was given a pretty substantial push for the six months or so that they decided to try and get women's wrestling over again, and never really got over. Lita more or less created her own push, since she started out as a jobber's valet and got herself over. The rest was WWF running with it and increasing her role.
"I do think she's the most overrated woman wrestler ever."
Are there that many people, unless you just mean regular fans who cheer for her, who thinks she's a really good worker?
Wrestling-wise, she was never any good, and sticks out even worse now because the quality of the women has gotten infinitely better over the last two years. But women in this country were historically never good workers. Madusa/Alundra was practically the first decent one, and she only had good matches with Bull Nakano and Aja Kong, two of the greatest workers ever. In fact, the all-time best female workers in this country are probably the ones who are wrestling right now: Molly Holly (by a wide margin), Trish Stratus, Victoria, and Jazz.
Popularity-wise (post-expansion, since I know nothing about Mildred Burke), at the height of her short run, Lita was only behind Sable, Chyna, and Wendi Richter, who were the biggest and most heavily pushed stars during the two biggest boom periods in history. Fabulous Moolah was never in an important spot, she was just around for a trillion years. Trish's face run from '02-03 was more successful, since she actually got the women's title and the matches over, but it came when the business was cold and less people were watching.
It's hard to say if it would've worked as well with Lita had they gone with her as the face of a women's division in '00-01 with her chasing the title from different heels. The matches certainly wouldn't have been as good. But she never got the chance, as it was supposed to start with Lita vs. monster heel Chyna in spring '01, but Chyna didn't want to wrestle women, buried Lita in their PPV match, and left the company right after, so that put the belt on ice until going with Trish at the end of the year.
Your pal, lita_is_da_best im a lita fan and im proode to be itDo you know what i hate the most................... people who think just because Lita is famous and wrestles that she is a fucking whore i don't think she is and you shouldn't judge for what they look like as well so all you Lita haters stop hating because you r only fucking jealous
Originally posted by JMShapiro But women in this country were historically never good workers. Madusa/Alundra was practically the first decent one, and she only had good matches with Bull Nakano and Aja Kong, two of the greatest workers ever. In fact, the all-time best female workers in this country are probably the ones who are wrestling right now: Molly Holly (by a wide margin), Trish Stratus, Victoria, and Jazz.
Sherri Martel was pretty good. I would've liked to have seen a Madusa/Martel run. It's pretty tough to come up with others of that era, since, pre-Richter, Moolah was the only champion anyone knew.
Velvet McIntyre I remember....Judy Martin...Debbie Combs? Who was Jake Roberts' sister who was given a belt in Georgia for awhile, Misty?
I view Lita in the same light I view Goldberg. Someone who's all image & very little substance. She's really fortunate, her image really clicked easily(and that's a positive & good for her)... The problem with both of them they lived off it and seems to have no desire to make themselves better or have a care in the world to make the people around them better or help them get over. Goldberg once said "I'm so successful using 3 moves, why change", you look at Lita it's the same thing, she's over with her spotty moves, why change. Such a self-centered way of thinking, sure you're lucky you have to do very little to be over, but there is other people around you not as lucky and if you can actual work a match to allow them to get their stuff over would be appreciated. Neither of these two have any business of being a focal point of a division, and even with their popularity do alot more harm then good.
There is a reason why no woman has ever been able to get over wrestling Lita. Even when Lita gets pinned she makes her opponent look so bad that it always comes off as a "fluke" pin even if it wasnít' meant to be. Lita has no idea how to work a match to allow her opponent to look strong by selling & allowing her opponent to be an equal . An example is on Heat when Jazz had Lita in the STF for an entire minute just for Lita to reach the ropes jump up & throw a dropkick 5 seconds later which Snow even said "It's amazing after being in the STF for that long Lita can throw a drop kick"... Trish is the total opposite, she works her opponents style, allowing her opponents to look like individuals & unique. There is no way Jazz & especially Victoria would allow to look as good vs. Lita. They'd be forced to wrestle a "Lita match" which Lita doesn't even know how to work, making all the matches look the same
I was a Lita fan back in 2000, same reason why anyone was. She was unique, different & cool but now years later the artificial things that made her stand out is still the only thing she has going for her & boy does she milk it, every interview she does she talks about 3 things. Her mutts, her Matt's & how unique & different she from everyone else. Could you come off any more self-serving... I loved the real team atmosphere in the Raw women lockerroom, how everyone would compliment & put over the group instead of trying to focus on themselves, which is all Lita does, even in her quote Leggo put up she talks about "chemistry" she has with Victoria, like Victoria was nothing before her? Like Victoria didn't have a bunch of amazing matches in 2003. But that would be complimentary which Lita never gives.
No surprise rumors of the girls lockerroom hates her. I never hear anyone talk about hanging out with her & Lita always seems to be absent when the gals have a group personal pic outside a WWE setting. She'd rather hang with the menís lockerroom with Matt more the women. Hell in her damn book she talks about wanting to wrestle in the men tag division with Matt, shows what she thinks of the women... Lita is just not a bad wrestler, as Fuel said, she's a dangerous wrestler, from scary headscissors, to moonsaults that crash her knees to someoneís face & if someone standing crashes her head into someone shoulder as she gets NO LIFT. Even this past week as she goes for a belly/back suplex she drops Trish on her shoulder. She has no business being in there. The girls should take a stand for their safety. Sad how JR has to use the words modified or this weeks suplex "of sorts" cause Lita can't do a move correctly
The past few months the women division has gone to the dumps. As first_lady said, Molly shaved her head, DO SOMETHING with that, all it became is exchanging pull pants down/granny panties haha spot to pull wig off/bald head haha spot, so lame. If you going to do something as extreme as having a women shave her head, have a follow-up plan for goodness sakes... They also wasted their top woman wrestling babyface turning heel without benefiting any other women on the roster (well except Lita, who now has no competition in that department). Why waste Trish's turn on a valet role instead of having her & Victoria start a friendship, thus allowing Trish to turn on Victoria to get fans get behind face-Victoria more then just what shorts she's wearing.
Lita's just part of the reason why there will never be a truly viable women's division in the fed and, maybe to a larger extent, the US: The fans couldn't give a rat's ass. I'm serious. North American wrestling, and specifically the WWE, has never once treated women's wrestling as a serious part of the show over the past ten years. They show the same disdain for it that they do for the cruiserweights. The difference is, the fans actually seem to give a crap about the kind of shit the li'l guys can pull out of their hats, whereas with the ladies they're only worried about hooting with delight when Miss Jackie lets her nipple slip. Hell, even when Trish was the focal point of the division, it was still a case of "she's crazy-hot ohandshecanwrestle" rather than the other way around. Why do you think the Evening Gown match got a better reaction at WrestleMania than Victoria's victory over Molly?
Here's one: Try counting the unattractive WWE women, or at least "unattractive" by conventional standards. I count one: Jazz. And she's always booked as a heel and hasn't been given any kind of push since forever. The rest all have legs/tits/ass that get salacious comments from King and pervy cheers from the fans. It's not a situation that's going to change, and us sitting here kvetching is ultimately pointless because, when all is said and done, Vince is actually listening to fan reactions when he pushes people like Lita. They don't care is she can wrestle worth a damn-she's hot, and they want to see her as much as possible.
I'm not saying it's particularly right that this is the way it works, but sadly it's the way it is; this is one case where smart fan interests and casual fan enjoyment is sharply divided. I applaud the fed's half-hearted attempts at getting the division over for wrestling instead of eye-candy, but ask yourself this: If you were running a multimillion dollar business, and you could get a louder reaction without trying by sticking Stacy's buttcheeks out there than putting in potentially futile time and effort into getting female wrestlers accepted, which option would you take? It's common sense, not some vicious conspiracy against those poor hardworking women who bust their asses every night.
Hey, you know who Lita reminds me of? RVD. The comparison between their ring-work is a little extreme, sure, but they've both been doing the same tired act for years with little variation. Now when RVD gets good crowd reactions, the generally-accepted line is "Well sure, he's got in-ring shortcomings, but the bottom line is the fans' wants and wishes". Now with Lita, it's "Oh, they don't know what they're talking about." It's kinda spurious to claim fan-power on one hand and ignore their wishes on the other.
1/27/03: You've got the Chokeslam...and I've got the Five-Star Frog Splash. And the Van Daminator, and the Van Terminator...and the Split-Legged Moonsault, and the Rolling Thunder...did I mention you have the Chokeslam?