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The W - Current Events & Politics - Supreme Court keeps status quo - Affirmative Action is OK, as long as you don't spell it out. (Page 2)
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DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 4022 days
Last activity: 2889 days
#21 Posted on
MoeGates said:

    Dr0p - what "AP at 30?" Do you work for the Associated Press, or is that a kind of degree or something?



Whitebacon is correct. AP is short for Assistant Principal (called VP for Vice Principal in some circles). I actually made it at 28 or so.

Sometimes I sit and think--If I were an average, everyday member of this country's majority, would *I* feel threatened by these types of initiatives?

And I answer, "probably."

People in power and control play on everyone's sensitivities (and insecurities). So that fact that you didn't get into that school is not because your grades were average, but because some minority got in instead. And the fact that you didn't get that job isn't because unemployment is sky-high or that there were more qualified applicants (in the mind of the employer, mind you). Nope, it's because AA has struck again.

DrOp--and I would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you pesky kids!!



And Marking Out
Slashwrestling.com
Wienerville
Reverend J Shaft
Toulouse








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 197 days
Last activity: 2 days
#22 Posted on
Hi. First time wiener here. I read for awhile, but never registered until now. I live in Michigan and went to U-M, so I feel rather strongly about this.

Please excuse my ignorance, but how is AA not discriminatory? How can white applicants, equal with a black applicant in all respects except for skin color, not feel that they were denied an opportunity because of the their race?

I wholeheartedly agree that more needs to be done to ensure diversity exists in our colleges, but AA and U-M's undergrad policy are not the answer. Someone earlier in the thread accused another of wiener of generalizing most minorities as poor. Is that not what this policy suggests? Why do minorities need special consideration if not because many (a great deal more than whites) of them come from poor socio-economic environments? Several minority-race supporters of AA would be very angry if I suggested that many of them come from poorer neighborhoods, yet they would be thrilled if someone offered them admission to a top college based (either partly or wholly) on their race. Yet I also realize that there are poor white people out there, too. That's exactly why I cannot understand how someone could support this policy.

I don't think racism is an issue keeping minorities out of an extremely liberal institution (like U-M), so I don't believe race should be a factor at all in determining whether an applicant is qualified or not. Although, I do believe any student (white or otherwise) from a poorer socio-economic background should be given extra consideration.

One more question I would pose before I get crushed by all of you. Let's say this policy results in a proportionately equal share of minorities in all colleges and then AA was stopped. Do you think colleges would remain as diverse if AA was eliminated? (I don't know either way- just looking for some thoughts)
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 3057 days
Last activity: 1512 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Incidentally, and relating to the case, here's a manfifestation of racism in the New York Times thanks to the idiocy of Maureen Dowd:

[Thomas] knew that he could not make a powerful legal argument against racial preferences, given the fact that he got into Yale Law School and got picked for the Supreme Court thanks to his race.

What?



"I'm going to fill a dark awful basement with radioactive cockroaches. Yep. Big nasty ones like skateboards on legs, that go click-click-click when they walk. And maybe poisonous. I'm going to starve them for a week.

Then I'm going to catch all the coercive priss-spigots in the world, the ones that want to ban second-hand smoke and dwarf-tossing and beer. I'll smear the rascals with bacon fat, so the roaches won't know what they're eating, as otherwise they might not.

Then I'm going to toss all those greased busybodies into the basement. And whoop. And dance. Ha."
- Fred Reed
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 1413 days
Last activity: 288 days
#24 Posted on
I don't know about Yale Law School, but since he was filling Thurgood Marshall's spot there was no way on earth that Bush was going to nominate anything but an African-American for the spot, and the amount of Republican African-American judges with qualifications worthy of Supreme Court consideration leads to a mighty slim hiring pool.

Of course that implies that Thomas ever does much arguing of any sort, strong or otherwise. From everything I've seen he is the Calvin Coolidge of SC Justices.



and maybe I should open up my sensitive side/but really, the sensitive side sucks./I've been there./You can only imagine the kinds of sweaters they make you wear.
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 4022 days
Last activity: 2889 days
#25 Posted on
Reverend J Shaft:

I think AA is based on the idea that *qualified* minority members should recieve a fair chance. That they should be considered (because they weren't and always aren't).

There are bright minorities, living near or around low SES places who get good grades and still don't gain admittance to schools.

No one should get into college solely based on their race. Or that fact that their father went to the college. Or that they are an athlete.

All institutions are not "liberal."

Saying racism is not a factor (or saying it doesn't exist) is like a psychiatrist telling a patient that she isn't really hearing voices. How do you know? Seriously.






And Marking Out
Slashwrestling.com
Wienerville
Reverend J Shaft
Toulouse








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 197 days
Last activity: 2 days
#26 Posted on
DrOp-

You're absolutely right. I don't know that racism is not a factor at U-M. That's exactly why I oppose AA- because that is BLATANT discrimination. I'm not saying nothing needs to be done, I'm just saying AA is not the answer. It just makes people more divisive and angry.

I also know there are bright minorities living near or around low SES places who get good grades and still don't gain admittance to schools. Are you suggesting there are not bright white students who live and do the same? If not, how can you justify using race as a factor?

I agree that "legacies" are also a problem, but that deals with discrimination based on wealth, which is not illegal, as opposed to race, which IS (or, at least I thought so until NOW).

I think most of us agree that diversity is a good thing, we just seem to disagree on how to achieve it.

P.S. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that "all" institutions are liberal, just U-M. And yes, I DO know that for a fact.

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 25.6.03 1453)

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 25.6.03 1453)
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Outside of Boston

Since last post: 244 days
Last activity: 118 days
ICQ:  
#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by spf2119
    I don't know about Yale Law School, but since he was filling Thurgood Marshall's spot there was no way on earth that Bush was going to nominate anything but an African-American for the spot, and the amount of Republican African-American judges with qualifications worthy of Supreme Court consideration leads to a mighty slim hiring pool.

    Of course that implies that Thomas ever does much arguing of any sort, strong or otherwise. From everything I've seen he is the Calvin Coolidge of SC Justices.



Have you seen him in action? Makes Byung-Hyun Kim look like an insomniac. (At least from the one day of cases I saw.)



Today's Out-Of-Context Quote, Courtesy of hardygrrl:

"...between the grime layer and the Seventies game show host hair, I'd rather rim Undertaker after a White Castle/Schlitz bender."
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 4022 days
Last activity: 2889 days
#28 Posted on
Reverend:

If the grandsons and great-grandsons of Alumni can be awarded 20 points, why can't minorities?
Remember, *my* grandfather wasn't allowed to go to UM.
My greatgrandfatehr wasn't even allowed much education, period.

How is either point award more or less fair/unfair than the other? Are they both equally wrong? The fairness or inequitiy of it depends upon your perspective (i.e., background), I'd wager.

I don't claim to have any of the answers.



And Marking Out
Slashwrestling.com
Wienerville
Reverend J Shaft
Toulouse








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 197 days
Last activity: 2 days
#29 Posted on
DrOp:

I believe I DID say that legacies are a problem. I'm all for eliminating those as well. The reason I concentrate on AA is that it is in direct contradiction of anti-discrimination laws set up to protect minorities. Now all of the sudden it's OK to discriminate against whites? Why? Because "they did it first"? To "make things even"? I haven't used defenses like these since I was in third grade. Two wrongs do NOT make a right.

I don't claim to have any of the answers, either. I just know, this isn't it.
skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 4197 days
Last activity: 4197 days
#30 Posted on

    Originally posted by DrOp
    AP is short for Assistant Principal


I thought it stood for Added Points.


    Originally posted by DrOp
    If my great-grandfather was a college grad, statistics say that I may be more likely to score highly on tests and go onto college myself (or further).


I'd like to see those statistics explain why Asians from other countries score highest on these tests. Whenever I go to the library on weekends, the kids I see doing homework are mostly Asians. Maybe there is a connection between hard work and test scores.

I can understand why minorities support affirmative action, if I got 20 points, I'd be happy too. People look after there own self-interest. The thing I can't understand is why 30 Asian groups supported the UM policy while they are the ones it penalizes the most.


DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 4022 days
Last activity: 2889 days
#31 Posted on
Wow, way to miss all my points, skorpio.

Please don't imply that people who aren't sucessful aren't working hard. There is a ton of Educational research that speaks to the contrary. Lots of studies in the Chicago School system to be exact. I can't link to them as the database is password protected.

If you are in a univeristy and can access Education Full Text, here is an article to read:

Melissa Roderick and Mimi Engel
The Grasshopper and the Ant: Motivational Responses of Low-Achieving Students to High-Stakes Testing
Educational Evaluation & Policy Analysis 23 no3 197-227 Fall 2001


Also--don't believe that there isn't concern about the overly high represenatation of Asian American students in AP courses in schools, because there is. As there are many people who focus on why minorities underperform in schools (compared to White Americans), there are just as many educational researchers and scholars that are tyring to figure out why Asian Student outperform everyone else.

Please don't assume that because I am a minority that I 100% support AA or have benefited from it.

I got rejected from MANY colleges out of high school. I graduated with high honors in the top 5% of my class and had good SAT scores. So when MIT said "No Thanks," I didn't get all in a tissy and scream racism. I just selected from the other colleges that had accepted me and went on to get my degree.

(edited by DrOp on 27.6.03 0857)


And Marking Out
Slashwrestling.com
Wienerville
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 3057 days
Last activity: 1512 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
And then there's this from a Time reporter who thinks that he has to carry the banner just because he's black.

Yikes...



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The W - Current Events & Politics - Supreme Court keeps status quo - Affirmative Action is OK, as long as you don't spell it out. (Page 2)Register and log in to post!

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