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22.10.14 0000
The W - Basketball - Suns Trade Marbury, Penny to Knicks
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Chandler, AZ

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.64
Jut saw this on ESPN:

ESPN reports that the Knicks have acquired Stephon Marbury and Anfernee Hardaway for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, the rights to Milos Vujanc, two first-round picks, and cash.

I also saw a version where the Suns get Marchel Lampe also. That would mean a lot (about $20 million) in cap space for the Suns at the end of this year (McDyess, Gugliotta, and Ward all expire). The speculation is they could make a run at Kobe.

Hate to see Marbury go, he was a good, gritty player, something the Suns always seem to lack. Getting rid of Hardaway's contract almost makes up for it, though...
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Since: 2.1.02
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.27
Speaking as a Knick fan...

Damn. Though I'm still not sold on Zeke just yet.

(edited by Kawshen on 5.1.04 1428)



BOSsportsfan34
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.51
    Originally posted by Kawshen
    Speaking as a Knick fan...

    Damn. Though I'm still not sold on Zeke just yet.

    (edited by Kawshen on 5.1.04 1428)


Knicks definitely got the best player in the deal in Marbury. The Knicks gave up a lot of cap space (take on a washed up Penny for the next 3 years on a max deal) and gave up two future #1's (next years pick is unprotected).

Marbury excells in a running game but can you see Thomas, Houston, or Deke running the break with him? Van Horn can play a running game as a PF but we all saw how well KVH and Marbury meshed in NJ.

If the Knicks miss the playoffs and the pick they sent to the Suns turns out to be in the top 3, the Knick fans will be longing for the glory days of Scott Layden.



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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I do not like this deal one bit. The great thing about McDyess and Ward were that their contracts were up after the season. You don't want to let players walk away but given the Knicks cap situation letting them walk is better than what you got in return. Now you have Houston and Penny playing the 2? Ugh.

If anything I would have tried to trade Houston around the trade deadline to free up cap room. I would have written off this season and used the time to give myself some cap room. The whole Atlantic division is lousy (with the possible exception of the Nets.) The talent gap is not that great.



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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
Here is Chad Ford's take at ESPN Insider. Pretty intruiging to think about No. 8 in Phoenix...

A supernova just hit Phoenix. The Suns are blowing up again. Suns GM Bryan Colangelo read the writing on the wall. His team, once considered the best young squad in the NBA, was floundering. Attendance was dwindling. The luxury tax was looming. The chances of making the playoffs dimmed by the day.

What to do? Trade away problem child Stephon Marbury, get Penny Hardaway's millstone off your neck and try again next year. The prize? Enough cap room to make a run at the Lakers' Kobe Bryant, the rights to the best young point guard in Europe, Milos Vujanic, and a chance to to go from a being a good team to a great one next year.

The trade, which sources told Insider would be completed today, sends Marbury and Hardaway to the Knicks for Antonio McDyess, Charlie Ward, Howard Eisley, Maciej Lampe, the rights to second-round pick Vujanic and two first-round picks, including New York's unprotected first this season.

Of all the players the Suns are getting, only Eisley and Lampe will be on the books next season. McDyess and Ward are vehicles by which the Suns can slash a $66 million payroll this season and turn it into roughly $10 million in cap room next year.

How? McDyess' $13.5 million, Ward's $6 million (the Suns will buy out Ward this week, saving another $3.6 million) and Tom Gugliotta's $11.7 million all come off the books at the end of the season. Add in the $6.4 million Eisley is slated to make next season and the Suns are looking at around $36 million in guaranteed salaries next season. Add in cap holds for the two first-round draft picks they own, and that number swells to $39 million. Sources in Phoenix claim, however, the Suns are probably not done dealing. The team will try to move a pick or two along with a salary to get closer to that $35 million number.

If the cap comes in at around $45 million next year, and the Suns are $10 million under, the Suns are suddenly right in the middle of the hunt to land Kobe.

And at first glance, they'd have to be the odds-on favorites. Kobe has been hinting that he wants out of L.A., but before today's trade, his best option appeared to be the Clippers. While the Clippers aren't a bad option for him if Donald Sterling is willing to pay, the Suns would be better. Combined with Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion, along with young players like Joe Johnson, Zarko Carbarkapa, Lampe and Milos Vujanic, the Suns would have as formidable of a team as any in the league. Phoenix has always been a premier free-agent destination because of the weather and the way the Colangelos run a first-class organization. Having Italian coach Mike D'Antoni couldn't hurt things either.

Yes, Kobe would have to take a decent pay cut to play in Phoenix. He's due $14.6 million next year in Los Angeles, and the Suns would probably be able to offer him only around $10 million. But for Kobe, the change of scenery, and the chance to win a championship without Shaq, may be worth the salary hit.

Even if the Suns can't land Kobe, the serious cap room will help them land a top-flight player. The acquisition of the two young European prospects -- Lampe and Vujanic -- also bodes well for the Suns' future.

Lampe stunned scouts when he slipped from a projected lottery pick to the first pick of the second round. The 7-foot native of Poland slipped when rumors that his team, Real Madrid, wouldn't let him out of his contract spread the day of the draft. The Knicks were able to secure a buyout and Lampe played well in the summer league for the Knicks.

Lampe has a typical European game. He's a good ball handler and excellent outside shooter for his size. Unlike other top European big men, however, Lampe has a body built to play in the low post. The Knicks quickly found that he was too slow to play the three in the NBA, but found a lot of success using him as a high-post five in their offense. The Suns were very high on Lampe during the draft, and would've selected him had Zarko Carbarkapa not been on the board.

Given the Suns' lack of true big man, Lampe may be a perfect fit in coach Mike D'Antoni's system. He can run the floor, stretch the defense and is tough enough to go in and grad a rebound. He'll never be athletic enough to play the three, but he could definitely help at the five.

They also landed the rights to Serbian point guard Milos Vujanic. Vujanic, 23, is widely regarded as the best young point guard in Europe. Vujanic averaged 25.7 ppg and 3.2 apg for Belgrade's Partizan team last year. This season playing for Euroleague powerhouse Skipper Bologna, the 6-foot-3 is averaging 12.8 ppg and 2.0 apg on 59 percent shooting from the field. While those numbers won't wow NBA observers, they are considered very solid considering that the Euroleague credits assist differently and that Vujanic is on a team stacked with talent.




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Since: 20.8.03
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.79
Goddamnit.

Why can't Knick management be competent? Is it too much to ask?

The interview today with Isiah showed how far his knowledge actually goes. Trautwig asked him about how this worsens the salary cap situation even more, and this prompted a three-minute speech by Isiah about how the fans don't come to games to see the salary cap play and they only care about winning games. Hello? Eliminating the salary cap problem will enable the team to sign credible talent instead of overpriced hacks.

I have no problems with the talent exchanged. Marbury is exactly the type of the player the Knicks needed..two or three years ago. And none of the players lost are going to be missed, assuming McDyess never recovers. Not to say they didn't need a quality point guard now, but with how far the team has sunk, the key was rebuilding and unloading all of those contracts for a couple of years before anything else. Now all this does is maybe make the Knicks a contender for the 7th or 8th seed for a couple of years, and then we'll see another dip. Then they'll take up more contracts, and the cycle repeats.
Stefonics
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Since: 17.3.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
    Originally posted by Chad Ford gets paid for this garbage
    ... at first glance, they'd have to be the odds-on favorites. Kobe has been hinting that he wants out of L.A., but before today's trade, his best option appeared to be the Clippers. While the Clippers aren't a bad option for him if Donald Sterling is willing to pay, the Suns would be better. Combined with Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion, along with young players like Joe Johnson, Zarko Carbarkapa, Lampe and Milos Vujanic, the Suns would have as formidable of a team as any in the league. Phoenix has always been a premier free-agent destination because of the weather and the way the Colangelos run a first-class organization. Having Italian coach Mike D'Antoni couldn't hurt things either.

This whole article made my head hurt, but these parts in particular induced migraines. Just to get it out of the way first, there is no way in hell that Kobe is going to sign with Phoenix. In my mind, there is no reason for him to take less salary to do twice as much work. It just doesn't even out. Regardless of how classy the Colangelo ship is, there's no way he's signing for 10 million per season. Marion and Stoudemire might be enough to bring Kobes to the desert. I see Mr. Ford's point there. But why the hell throw in the other names? Joe Johnson, Zarko, and two Knicks rejects? That's the supporting cast? Please. I understand that the kid Vujanic is supposed to be a very solid player, but honestly, how good can he be if the Knicks drafted him? New York hasn't had an impact draft pick since Patrick Ewing. And someone please tell me when the fuck Phoenix turned into a "premier free-agent destination". The only premier free-agent they signed in the last 15 years was Barkley. If Phoenix is such a great place to play, why the hell did Michael Finley want out of there so badly? I don't think I heard Payton, Malone, Duncan, McGrady, Garnett, Jermaine O'neal, or any other decent player say publicly "You know, I really want to play for Phoenix. It's brutally hot there 9 months out of the year but the Colangelo's are really good people." It's complete bullshit. And how does Phoenix having an Italian coach be the icing on the cake to entice Kobe to sign with them? Does Kobe have mob connections that I'm not aware of? Is his real last name Lucciano? Trash.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Chandler, AZ

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
      Originally posted by Chad Ford gets paid for this garbage
      And how does Phoenix having an Italian coach be the icing on the cake to entice Kobe to sign with them? Does Kobe have mob connections that I'm not aware of? Is his real last name Lucciano? Trash.


    The Italian connection is quite real. The Suns coach, Mike D'Antoni played and coached in Italy for years and is very well respected there. One of his teammates was Joe "Jellybean" Bryant, whose son, Kobe, was fond of D'Antoni and the way he played.

    This is the other reason the Suns are loading up on European players, D'Antoni knows them well from coaching over there up until last year.
dunkndollaz
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Since: 3.1.02
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.29
This trade was made for the here & now - screw the future - MSG has been dark in April, May & June for too many years and it is during the playoffs that Dolan makes all his gravy - the Wiz went under and Cablevision sux so he needs some cash and he needs it badly - this trade gives them a legitimate shot at a #7 or #8 seed and at least 2 and maybe 3 playoff games at MSG......look for KVH to be the next one to be shown the door by Zeke - you wouldn't want Star-bury to get grumpy........



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Kawshen
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Since: 2.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.27
look for KVH to be the next one to be shown the door by Zeke - you wouldn't want Star-bury to get grumpy.

I don't know about that since Zeke loves Mr. Softee. When KVH was in Utah, Zeke went after him to draft for the Raps but Majerus had a fit and told Isiah to leave him alone b/c he wasn't going to leave early.




BOSsportsfan34
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Since: 2.1.03
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.51
If the Knicks end up in the playoffs and have to play the Nets in one of the rounds, you know the Knick fans will fill up BOTH the Meadowlands and MSG.

EDIT:
    Originally posted by Kawshen
    look for KVH to be the next one to be shown the door by Zeke - you wouldn't want Star-bury to get grumpy.

    I don't know about that since Zeke loves Mr. Softee. When KVH was in Utah, Zeke went after him to draft for the Raps but Majerus had a fit and told Isiah to leave him alone b/c he wasn't going to leave early.


According to RealGM WFAN in NY reported that Isiah offered KVH, Doleac, and Frank Williams (not the old wrestling jobber) to Portland for Rasheed.

(edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 6.1.04 1245)


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Since: 7.2.02
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by BOSsportsfan34
    If the Knicks end up in the playoffs and have to play the Nets in one of the rounds, you know the Knick fans will fill up BOTH the Meadowlands and MSG.

    EDIT:
      Originally posted by Kawshen
      look for KVH to be the next one to be shown the door by Zeke - you wouldn't want Star-bury to get grumpy.

      I don't know about that since Zeke loves Mr. Softee. When KVH was in Utah, Zeke went after him to draft for the Raps but Majerus had a fit and told Isiah to leave him alone b/c he wasn't going to leave early.


    According to RealGM WFAN in NY reported that Isiah offered KVH, Doleac, and Frank Williams (not the old wrestling jobber) to Portland for Rasheed.

    (edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 6.1.04 1245)


If that is true then someone needs to get Isiah into rehab because he must be smoking something.



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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
More from Chad Ford on the Kobe front:

The Suns better hope Kobe loves the desert. As I wrote on Monday, the Suns, with a little more maneuvering, should be able to make a strong push for Bryant next summer when he hits free agency. Before this trade, Kobe could talk about leaving the Lakers all he wanted, but where were the viable alternatives?

The Clippers? They have a nice core with Elton Brand and Corey Maggette, but if Kobe really wanted to flee the limelight, changing locker rooms in the Staples Center probably doesn't get it done. The Jazz? They have the cash, but somehow I don't think they'd have the stomach to bring in Kobe, even if he is acquitted of all charges. The Nuggets? Again, Kiki would love to have him, but it's a bit of PR nightmare considering Kobe's legal problems occurred in Colorado. The Spurs? They're not close to having enough cap room to pursue him. Kobe would have to take a $10 million a year pay cut to play for any team over the cap.

That leaves the Suns as, in my mind at least, the best alternative to the Lakers if Kobe decides to bolt. No, the Suns won't sign him if he's still enmeshed in his legal woes. But if his name is cleared by then, I think the Colangelo's won't balk. Kobe had a spotless past before the latest incident. If he can prove he was set up, I think it's pretty safe to say that he won't be causing in more problems.

If Kobe doesn't come to Phoenix, the other free-agent options out there aren't nearly as attractive. The Suns made this move with the idea that it would give them the flexibility to make a move or two to put them in contention for an NBA title. If they can't land a player of Kobe's caliber, however, I'm not sure that a core of Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion and a number of nice role players will be enough to get them there anytime soon.


...and...

The Suns are quickly catching up to the Mavericks and Pistons as the NBA's premiere embassy for international players. With Zarko Cabarkapa, Leandrinho Barbosa and Maciej Lampe in the fold, Milos Vujanic on the way and Italian coach Mike D'Antoni at the helm, expect the Suns to start resembling the Mavs and Kings offensively.

By the way, having D'Antoni as the coach of the Suns certainly doesn't hurt the team's chances of landing Kobe. Rumor has it Kobe wears No. 8 in honor of D'Antoni, who was a superstar in Italy when Kobe lived there as a kid. "I don't know," D'Antoni told the Sacramento Bee. "It sounds good. It's a great story. Kobe grew up there. We were killing people (on the basketball floor), killing his dad. We had a lot of fun. I've known Kobe forever. ... Maybe if he ever goes with a retro jersey from Italy, I can get some royalties."


(edited by JayJayDean on 6.1.04 1000)


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Since: 20.8.03
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.79
    Originally posted by BOSsportsfan34


    According to RealGM WFAN in NY reported that Isiah offered KVH, Doleac, and Frank Williams (not the old wrestling jobber) to Portland for Rasheed.

    (edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 6.1.04 1245)


If there is even an ounce of truth that Isiah is pursuing Wallace, off with his head. I groaned with your "glory days of Scott Layden" reference, but man, Isiah's trying to make a run now, isn't he? Of course, having Marbury on the team is great and makes the starting lineup FOR THIS YEAR pretty solid. But I don't care about this year. I care about being on top five years from now. The Knicks will not be on top if they continue to be content with selling out a few playoff games at MSG once a year as the eighth seed before being knocked out. The key is to strip the team to nothing and then build up something good. So many teams have proved this correct since the 90's. As it is, the Knicks are way over the cap and have too much shit on their team to actually get anywhere. The interview with Isiah proves he has no concept of long-term success.

With that said, I'd like to say that if no overpriced contracts were involved in the deal, then this would be one of the best deals I've seen in a long, long time talent-wise for the Knicks. And that's more than I can say for Layden, who not only took on the huge contracts, but also the washed up players. Figure if Layden was still around, the Knicks would have sent Thomas, McDyess, and five draft picks for Penny Hardaway alone (a slight exaggeration, but you get my point). But Isiah Thomas is still not what they need. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of the franchise, but man, it's looking like I'm not.
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Since: 17.3.02
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
Shows how much I know by bashing Chad Ford about the Italian coach comment. My knowledge of European basketball isn't that deep. I don't know Chad Ford from a hole in the wall so I'm most likely stating the obvious. By reading his columns, he comes across as a huge Phoenix Suns fan. And that bothers me. Kobe is not the only good soon-to-be free-agent on the market. I'm just saying that it's not good to put all your eggs in one basket, especially if the basket might go to jail for raping someone.

Another issue I have with his latest column is that he said "The Suns are quickly catching up to the Mavericks and Pistons as the NBA's premiere embassy for international players." He also threw the Kings in that group. The Mavericks have 3 international players on their roster. One hasn't played a game (Jon Stefansson), one is a role player (Najera) and one bonefide superstar (Nowitzki). That's not exactly a United Nations roster. The Pistons also have 3 international players who aren't nearly as impressive as those on the Mavericks. Milicic and Rebraca are both averaging under 10 minutes per game. Okur is putting in some quality work, but nowhere near the level of Nowitzki. The Kings also have 3 international players. Divac and Stojakovic are very good players, even if Vlade is past his prime. Songaila is averaging under 15 minutes per game. By combining the rosters of those teams that are considered by Mr. Ford to be the "premiere embassy for international players", there are two superstars (Peja and Dirk), one very good role player (Najera), two mediocre players (Divac and Okur), and four of bench-warmers. That's not exactly an ideal percentage.

The Suns can't compare to any of those teams in terms of the ability of their international players. None of them (Leandro Barbosa, Zarko Cabarkapa, Maciej Lampe, or Milos Vujanic) are even close to the production level of Okur. And the big deal in the Knicks trade was the kid Vujanic who is an unproven talent. I don't think, from a logical standpoint, that the Suns and their fans should be tooting their collective horn about how many free agents and international players want to join there team. I just don't see it. But I could be missing something.

Edit: As for those of you who say that the Knicks only care about this year, I think you're way off base. Marbury and Houston are signed for at least 3 more seasons. And they're talent level is way beyond that of a 8 seed in the Atlantic Conference. For the first time in several years, the depth chart of the Knicks makes some sense. There isn't a huge clusterfuck at the guard positions anymore. And to those who say that Marbury is past his prime, you're absolutely insane. He's 26 years old. He has at least another 5 years of excellence ahead of him. And playing in front of his home city on a regular basis could potentially add a few years to that estimate. Ease off on Zeke until you see the finished product. What he's done so far is way better than the idiotic trades and signings that Layden made.
And remember, this is New York. We don't have the patience to wait around for another Ewing-esque draft pick to pin our hopes on. Especially when the team across the river is pounding us.

(edited by Kidbrooklyn on 6.1.04 1844)

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I believe Najera played for Oklahoma, actually. I guess what Ford was trying to say is the big-time European players (Nowitski, Peja, Vlade, Milicic, maybe) play for the Kings, Mavs, and Pistons; the Suns can get into that category by landing a big-time European free agent, too.




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Since: 11.7.02
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.93
It seems like a good trade to me for the Knicks, not counting the cap. The Knicks are always over the cap, so why stop now.

McDyess for Hardaway is a wash as both guys are washed up shells. McDyess is slightly better because Hardaway has been sucking longer and McDyess has a friendlier contract.

Eisley for nothing is a wash, I'd rather have nothing than Eisley and his contract. Ward and Lampe aren't a big loss, though I like Ward's leadership.

So the deal boils down to Marbury for two #1 picks. Unless one of those #1s is a top 3 pick, he won't be as good as Marbury. Looking at giving up a #12 and #14 pick, it looks like a good deal for the Knicks to try to win now.
evilwaldo
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    Looking at giving up a #12 and #14 pick, it looks like a good deal for the Knicks to try to win now.


But win now at what cost? Sure you make the playoffs this year and maybe get to the second round; but because you are still in cap hell you can't sign any free agents so you are forced to make more trades. Are you going to trade for a superstar? Nope, just maxed out malcontent for maxed out malcontent.

You are also hoping that Penny and Starbury are coming to play. If not, then your cap situation is worse than before with no draft picks coming your way.




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