Originally posted by leggoOkay fine. Let's just take the live audience out of wrestling anyway. It's obvious they're not needed. Plus empty arena matches are always SO successful after all.
What's the quote I'm looking for? Oh yeah: "Neither irony or sarcasm is argument."
All I was trying to get at was that adverse crowd reactions shouldn't taint the whole viewing experience. Just because the crowd chose to boo Edge or Eugene doesn't mean they suck. And I would have participated in the wave during that stinker of a WWE Title match, too.
Originally posted by OMEGACrowd reactions do play a part in making a match. Hey, everybody loved Rock v. Hogan at WrestleMania X8. Now, take away the crowd reactions and what do you have? Basically, a shitty match.
I thought Orton v. Benoit was an excellent match last night. However, I DO think it was somewhat hampered by the lack of response from the crowd.
Exactly. The group I was watching with drifted off in to conversations during the match because the drama wasn't there. The crowd plays a part in that. Counting along to two counts. Popping for great moves. Creating a big time atmopshere in general. I don't have my tape handy to rewatch, but I don't remember a lot of that. I really have to rewatch the match I guess, because I didn't come away feeling the Toronto crowd gave two shits about Orton's win.
Originally posted by jjfcThe Smarks talk about the greatness of Y2J and how JBL/Taker was so bad it deserved to be ignored, and final justifcation of their Eugen hate. And then just ignore that Orton was more over than Benoit.
Orton's been getting cheers for weeks now, just not quite to the same degree. Plus, I noticed a significant amount of pro-Orton signs in the crowd. So I doubt that it's just the crowd suddenly deciding to cheer the heel.
I think a lot of Orton-hatin'-smarks are just ignoring the fact that people actually do like Orton.
(edited by Greymarch on 16.8.04 1627) "Boy, I've crippled more people than Polio!"
Originally posted by fuelinjectedIt's *TORONTO* ... Of course the crowd will be self-absorbed, obnoxious, bandwagon jumpers.
It seems like they were going against the bandwagon, though.
Toronto is usually a passive city when it comes to sports. I've always thought Toronto fans would make an excellent audience for golf and tennis. Intense watching, and appreciative applause. They certainly did go "bizarro land" last night.
Originally posted by Greymarch Orton's been getting cheers for weeks now, just not quite to the same degree. Plus, I noticed a significant amount of pro-Orton signs in the crowd. So I doubt that it's just the crowd suddenly deciding to cheer the heel.
I think a lot of Orton-hatin'-smarks are just ignoring the fact that people actually do like Orton.
(edited by Greymarch on 16.8.04 1627)
I have been noticing this happen in WWE for years now at SummerSlam. In 1999, people were more receptive to HHH because they believed he would win the WWF Title that night. If the people really, truly believe that the title will change hands that night, whether the person is face or heel, and they run on pure emotion, they will get pumped for that.
It happened again with Brock in 2002. This is, perhaps, the most extreme example. People knew Brock would win. It was expected, and if he didn't, people would be confused and not mentally capable of accepting a Rock win, which I believe would have resulted in a dead crowd.
We saw it again last night. Randy Orton has been groomed to win the World Title for the last year, and Benoit has been champion since WrestleMania, so people were expecting Randy to win.
The reason people do this is because they want to be a part of the show. Since they were at the arena, they want to have the ability to support the victor and say "I was there and I was cheering as loud as I could when he won!" They want to believe they were a part of history. They feel that they are characters, just like Benoit and Orton, and they want to do their best to play their part.
People didn't necessarily like Randy Orton last night. At this point, Orton could fizzle out like Chris Jericho for all we know. It's a groupthink thing.
Orton most certainly does have fans, but he's still very early into his career. Eventually, though, Randy can certainly use this to further his career and cement a more solid fanbase in the future.
Originally posted by SKLOKAZOIDPeople didn't necessarily like Randy Orton last night. At this point, Orton could fizzle out like Chris Jericho for all we know. It's a groupthink thing.
There's a monumental difference, though. The company is 110% behind Randy Orton. They never got behind Chris Jericho at all. Not leading up to his title win and certainly not after he won it. I can only think of two times Jericho was booked as an effective heel during his title run. Once when he hit Steve Austin in the head with a case of beer and drowned Stone Cold in his own gimmick. The second time when they tried to salvage the HHH/Jericho Main Event by having Jericho sledgehammer HHH's quad and put him in the Walls on announce table. Other then that, he was made to look like an opening match heel holding two shiny gold things.
Insensitive Funny Comment of the Week: "You don't buy prostitutes ... They're human beings! You rent them!" Artie Lange
I'll never hate on Toronto, they go against company line, because they make some hard earned coin, and they want to make the most of it. If the WWE's so uncomfortable with that, then they should learn to adlib more. I always love the Canadian PPVs, they are a passionate honest bunch who know more about wrestling than most of us give them credit for.
They remind me of the Japanese in that respect. I try to be like that because it's more fun. Let's go to the tape. Now, JBL and Taker was boring, so can't blame them. Booing Edge? Well, he's a bit vanilla, so to each his own. Cheering HHH? Hell, even some of us do that. Booing Eugene? Well, I just need less of him, so once again to each his own. Believe me, I've seen some loud and passionate Canadian crowds in the past, but that was mainly because the show (PPV or whatever) was kicking ass. Summerslam Sunday sure as hell didn't, so there you go.
I'm taking the high road on this one, so I agree with Toronto, it wasn't all that.
I was in the crowd and it sucked. I have been in a Philly, New York and Pittsburg crowd and honestly, Canada's crowd sucked. However, I will say the big 4 PPVs generate more marks from across the globe than hometown people mainly due to price and a unwillingness to spend a lot get the tickets. I don't blame all of Canada for this since I have always wanted to be in a Canadian crowd, now that I know, I'm stuck with PA crowds. The Canadians are cool people, nothing against them, but the general smark feel to the event killed most of it for me as if the crowd didn't.
I was honestly thinking of not going for awhile, so I went enjoyed everything up til the finish to HHH/Eugene. Then having the fan jump on the limo showing the big slash on the top killed the big spot as well. I am not all impressed by Orton's win. I don't like Orton, but I felt the end did no justice to either guy. The RKO is just a Diamond Cutter, its not a Peigree or even a Rock Bottom, I don't consider it a death move. The fact that it took one RKO to get Benoit down while it took two for Foley makes Benoit look quick. Also, the crowd was not fully into Orton, he got a nice pop, but it was all Benoit. I don't know how it sounded on TV, but the Orton chants were there, but not mind blowing or that loud. As a fan, I spent a ton of money on this event and I felt cheated. I know Orton winning is a huge thing, but for me its not that big plus I was hoping for better matches. Angel/Eddie was fairly dull and got a few boring chants plus Taker/JBL sucked big time. I knew the undercard would carry the PPV, but it couldn't.
So much for the predictions by a couple people that if Orton beat Benoit for the title in Canada (nevermind beating him clean), there'd be a "riot" in Toronto... Big roll of the eyes to that one. By now, most people know it's scripted and don't take it to be a personal or national insult when one of their favorites loses.
Originally posted by chillSo much for the predictions by a couple people that if Orton beat Benoit for the title in Canada (nevermind beating him clean), there'd be a "riot" in Toronto... Big roll of the eyes to that one. By now, most people know it's scripted and don't take it to be a personal or national insult when one of their favorites loses.
.....as the fans chant "You screwed Bret" 7 years after the fact.
Though I do think it has more to do with "keeping the tradition of the chant" than the fans actually being THAT angry about it these days.
(edited by geemoney on 18.8.04 2353) MY Summerslam Hangout report and More!: Experience It
Originally posted by geemoneyThough I do think it has more to do with "keeping the tradition of the chant" than the fans actually being THAT angry about it these days.
Yeah, I think it's about the fun and the tradition of it. Just another way to interact with a performer, since Hebner actually reacts to the crowd's chant. Kudos to him for doing that too, cuz I know fans here get a kick out of doing it.
And I'm glad they kept Rhyno/Tajiri vs La Rez off of Summerslam's card. It wasn't necessary, and it gives us a longer-term program and chance of the fans really getting behind Rhyno & Tajiri as a team. Good decision there.
Originally posted by VileThe WWE title match is a perfect example of why Bradshaw shouldn't be champion and Undertaker needs to retire.
I was thinking the same thing myself, I think JBLs promos are brilliantly carried out and I wish he could carry that to the ring.
As to the Undertaker he doesnt fight each week seemingly saving himself for PPVs and selected tapings and he deosnt seem to be enthusiastic about his wrestling anymore. I feel he is living off status more than anything .
As to SummerSlam I was at a mates watching and we both laughed at the crowd and what they were doing and chanting,. Spanish table got a huge roar from us when we heard that as we both said watch out for the spanish table when the top was taken off and funnily enough there was a sense of dissapointment when it stayed intact for the entire show.
The card looked promising but just missed delivering but all in all a good 2 hours 45m
As to Ortons win if you know VKM you will know he hates with a passion people who leave on their own terms and people who continuosly badmouth his lifes work. Brock Lesnar is now erased from whatever record books are kept and VKM can move his company on to where he feels it should go.
Just a point,I have been watching wrestling since well lets say Andre the Giant was billed as Andre the Incredibly Tall guy (haha) and one thing I have learned is to never over analyse why some people win and some dont. I have learnt its the $$$ and the ratings and VKM will make as many changes as quickly or as slowly as he wants if he feels it is the right thing to do dollar and ratings wise.
(quoting fixed - thecubsfan)
(edited by thecubsfan on 19.8.04 0106) if you cant stand the heat...buy icecream
SmackDown was good stuff this week. 2 for 2 for the WWE this week, been a while since I can remember feeling that way. The bad - Ricoshi vs. Billy/Chuck, Vince talking (I've reached that point where I can't stand to hear his voice)