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The W - Current Events & Politics - Stanley "Tookie" Williams denied clemency (Page 2)
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RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.34
the Cop in this story is usually the one in most of the documentaries on the topic (or gangs / that time period in general)...

FLEA

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Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

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AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by El Nastio
    Well, since we're busting out Bible quotes, I may as well toss one out there;

    From Matthew, Chapter Five:

    41 And whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two, 42 Give to him that asketh of thee and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away. 43 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.


    That would be the definitive quote there, inregards to the "eye for an eye" thing. As in that idealogy ("eye for an eye") in is no longer applicable when it comes to Christian morality. Later on in the Gospels, Jesus put actions to words when Kephas cut off a soldier's ear, Jesus rebuked him (Kephas) and healed the soldier's ear.



I only point out that this is you or me, not the government. Exacting God's revenge is the role of the goverment established by Him (if you believe in that), even if that Government isn't very "godly". If someone killed, say, my family, I would hope that I could come to the place where I could forgive that person, but I would also hope that the government established by God would exact God's vegeance in him, as it is designed to do.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.33
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    Exacting God's revenge is the role of the government established by Him (if you believe in that), even if that Government isn't very "godly". If someone killed, say, my family, I would hope that I could come to the place where I could forgive that person, but I would also hope that the government established by God would exact God's vegeance in him, as it is designed to do.


Again, if it is government's role to "exact God's vengence", why can't it be the government's role to exact God's will to feed the poor, heal the sick, and other social causes? Certainly those would fall under the category of God's will.

Why is that the government can only act in God's role is when it comes to execution?

(edited by Leroy on 14.12.05 1749)
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.12
    Originally posted by Leroy
    Again, if it is government's role to "exact God's vengence", why can't it be the government's role to exact God's will to feed the poor, heal the sick, and other social causes? Certainly those would fall under the category of God's will.

    Why is that the government can only act in God's role is when it comes to execution?


Well, if you believe that the Bible is God's message to man (and that, of course, is the choice of every person), then you much accept its message as true. The role of feeding the poor, loving the unlovable, ect, is left to people - that is, individual christians. So we who accept that message do what we can. We give to the poor (I work in a homeless breakfast a couple times a month, I sponsor poor children through a mission group, I give money to our church which, among other things, sponsors a homeless breakfast weekly (the one I work at), a food pantry for poor families, and maintains a fund for the purpose of helping people who need help.). We love the unlovable (I have visited in prisons, worked in detox centers and homeless shelters, sorted clothes at Salvation Army and other relatively uncomfortable stuff). I mentor a bunch of 14-16 year olds whose Daddies have decided that they only need to visit home when it is time to reimpregnant their mommies.

I suspect many of us would give more where there is need, but most of us are buried in taxes for the social engineering done by our government, whose only, real purpose is to provide for the common defense.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.25
AWA, we are the government. So aren't we really charged as a nation to help those less fortunate as a nation? We too as a family do things similar to what you cited but I also think our nation is better served and more secure by helping those on the lower rungs of the ladder as a nation, not just individuals.

I always think of the quote that a society is judged by how it treats the less fortunate in its midst.



Perception is reality
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 108 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.90
Exacting God's revenge is the role of the goverment established by Him (if you believe in that), even if that Government isn't very "godly". If someone killed, say, my family, I would hope that I could come to the place where I could forgive that person, but I would also hope that the government established by God would exact God's vegeance in him, as it is designed to do.

I'd just as soon God exact his own vengeance. I'm thinking that He is more able to do that than Congress/the Supreme Court (and more directly for individual cases, the 12 jurors and the judge). And, if you compare the amount of time we're here to the amount of time in the afterlife, the extra 20 or 30 years' difference is a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things. Especially if you consider the possibility of executing someone falsely accused. Given a life or death judgement, I'd argue that's better left to God.

Also, in regards to the point that the government was established by God and therefore can act as executor, it seems this suggests that it's ok for Christians (or Muslims or Jews or racial groups) to be persecuted, tortured and murdered because the government was ultimately established by God. And, I haven't even touched the idea that this particular theology also suggests that people like Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, and Hitler could also 'exact God's vengeance' because they were doing so under the auspices of a government established by God and (at least in their opinion) were meting out justice. or at least trying to better their country (if only in their mind).




"Teach children that they have great potential because they are human." -Warrior
Stilton
Frankfurter








Since: 7.2.04
From: Canada

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.35
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    Exacting God's revenge is the role of the goverment established by Him (if you believe in that)...


Hmmm... this sounds like "The Divine Right of Kings" to me. That idea went to the grave with Marie Antionette's pretty little severed head.

Okay, I'm an atheist, but I've studied enough theology to understand the concept of God endowing humanity with free will. I would think, hypothetically speaking, that that same free will extends to things like electing an earthly government. Let Caesar keep what is Caesar's, and all that.

Mix in a little "separation of Church and State" and the very idea that God has any hand at all in any nation's public elections is a pretty hopeless stretch. The belief holds neither theological or political water.

Anyway, Tookie's dead. The State of California put him to death. I'm still not sad about it.



He was a popular attraction until he choked to death on a corn kernel.
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.24
Mix in a little "separation of Church and State" and the very idea that God has any hand at all in any nation's public elections is a pretty hopeless stretch. The belief holds neither theological or political water.

whoa - where were YOU in '04? The God crowd won in a landslide

FLEA



Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

1ryderfakin.com - THE IWC 100! And The Wrestling Dead Pool!!
Stilton
Frankfurter








Since: 7.2.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 3185 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.35
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    Mix in a little "separation of Church and State" and the very idea that God has any hand at all in any nation's public elections is a pretty hopeless stretch. The belief holds neither theological or political water.

    whoa - where were YOU in '04? The God crowd won in a landslide

    FLEA


Exactly. It was the "crowd" who did the voting. The people. Not God himself.



He was a popular attraction until he choked to death on a corn kernel.
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.14
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    AWA, we are the government. So aren't we really charged as a nation to help those less fortunate as a nation? We too as a family do things similar to what you cited but I also think our nation is better served and more secure by helping those on the lower rungs of the ladder as a nation, not just individuals.

    I always think of the quote that a society is judged by how it treats the less fortunate in its midst.


You're wrong, Doc. The Government represents us. We are we. This is not a democracy, it is a representative republic.

But regardless, you're a religious guy. Find me something in a sacred document you hold dear that says a government takes care of the poor. I doubt you can do it. Individuals, yes, of course. Churches, yes, of course. It's not the job of the government to usurp my (or your) responsibility in this matter. But they have, with the help of well meaning folks like yourself. And it seems to me that the poor are worse off with the government taking care of them than when the church and their christian friends took care of them.

Look, for everyone who is offended, I didn't bring the Big Guy into this. I was just trying to explain what (until fairly recently) orthodox christians believe about the roles of government and individuals. Whether you believe that is true or not, it is. You could look it up. If you're a person of any (or no) beliefs, you get to vote for your various representatives(and so do I), they THEY get to enact the will you have expressed to them. And if they vote for flowers and fairies for killers, so be it. I'll be voting for the fellas (and ladies) who'll be in favor of public hangings for murderers. I hear that is 100% effective in stopping them from killing again.



    Also, in regards to the point that the government was established by God and therefore can act as executor, it seems this suggests that it's ok for Christians (or Muslims or Jews or racial groups) to be persecuted, tortured and murdered because the government was ultimately established by God. And, I haven't even touched the idea that this particular theology also suggests that people like Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, and Hitler could also 'exact God's vengeance' because they were doing so under the auspices of a government established by God and (at least in their opinion) were meting out justice. or at least trying to better their country (if only in their mind).



In essence, yes. When this statement was written, Rome was killing Christians by the thousands, but one of Jesus' Apostles wrote it anyway. Look, it's hard to understand and hard to accept even for a guy with a lot of faith, but God uses those terrible times as he does good times. Some (not me) say that the Holocaust happened because God needed humanity to re-establish Israel in their homeland. If there is a God (and that something everyone wrestles with, I am sure) than trying to understand what He is up to at any minute is tricky at best. But iy can at least start by trying to figure out what he has written to you and said. In my case, I take the Bible and that's where my stance on the role of goverment lies.

(edited by AWArulz on 15.12.05 2202)

We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 108 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.66
AWA--I don't see how you could have offended anyone; I find your point of view interesting, and I'm really enjoying this thread. I sincerely hope you don't feel I'm attacking you. But, judging from the decline in my rating, I seem to have bothered someone. Moving on to my point...

One other thing on the idea that God established governments because I find it intriguing...In the interest of disclosure, I am Roman Catholic and adhere to the just war theory (which I also take to include civil wars or rebellions). So, it seems that the fundamentalist position suggests that wars or rebellions could never be justified because they would be an attack on a government which has at least a tacit endorsement from God. The one obvious exception would be for self-preservation because no state ever has the right to be the aggressor, according to fundamentalist theology.

In sum, does this mean that government has primacy in determining individual's rights? So, we basically get whatever rights the government deems necessary? In which case, how could a fundamentalist be in favor of the Iraq war, even to end state-sanctioned terrorism (because again, if it falls under the auspices of government, then it's according to God's will)? Or, for that matter, was the U.S. revolution also a sin (for want of a better term)?



"Teach children that they have great potential because they are human." -Warrior
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.31
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    In essence, yes. When this statement was written, Rome was killing Christians by the thousands, but one of Jesus' Apostles wrote it anyway. Look, it's hard to understand and hard to accept even for a guy with a lot of faith, but God uses those terrible times as he does good times. Some (not me) say that the Holocaust happened because God needed humanity to re-establish Israel in their homeland.



And this is right where a lot of religious folks lose me. There are people behind these atrocities. These aren't natural events, but are planned and executed by people with free will. To say that God "uses" these events means that the people behind these things are doing the will of God (which was more or less what Hitler felt, but maybe not in that same way). I can't reconcile that, and no one has been able to provide an argument that explains it. Most of the time the response is "to accept things on faith."

I can't. I tried. But if I am going to believe in any God, there's got to be some better reason than "faith".

Please don't take that the wrong way. I have some envy for folks who have faith. I'm sure it's very beautiful way to live. But I need more than that.

Stilton
Frankfurter








Since: 7.2.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 3185 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.30
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by AWArulz
      In essence, yes. When this statement was written, Rome was killing Christians by the thousands, but one of Jesus' Apostles wrote it anyway. Look, it's hard to understand and hard to accept even for a guy with a lot of faith, but God uses those terrible times as he does good times. Some (not me) say that the Holocaust happened because God needed humanity to re-establish Israel in their homeland.



    And this is right where a lot of religious folks lose me. There are people behind these atrocities. These aren't natural events, but are planned and executed by people with free will. To say that God "uses" these events means that the people behind these things are doing the will of God (which was more or less what Hitler felt, but maybe not in that same way). I can't reconcile that, and no one has been able to provide an argument that explains it. Most of the time the response is "to accept things on faith."

    I can't. I tried. But if I am going to believe in any God, there's got to be some better reason than "faith".

    Please don't take that the wrong way. I have some envy for folks who have faith. I'm sure it's very beautiful way to live. But I need more than that.




That's just it, Leroy. The very idea that God uses people to execute his will is a fundamental theological nonsequitor. It ignores the concept of a free human will, and treats human beings as though they are little more than puppets of the divine. It simply doesn't wash theologically.

Any time in the Bible (if that's what you want to base this on) when God wants someone to do something, he sends a messenger -- an angel, a burning bush, a son, what-have-you -- and then lets the person choose whether or not to do it. Eve and the apple. Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac, and so on. And then in post-Biblical Christian legends, you've got your Joan of Arc and such saints who purportedly received instructions from Mr. Big.

The concept of divine predestination superseding free human will means that God intends certain people (Hitler, Stalin, Tookie, whoever...) to be damned to Hell (for breaking his divine commandments) before they're even born. Okay, so John Calvin actually believed this, but the general idea is pretty much poo-pooed my most theologians and philosophers since it doesn't seem very Godly to be damning infants before they even have a chance to "choose" to be good people. And if you do believe that God imposes his will on people before they have a chance to choose, then that would mean that everyone's fate is already preordained and there's no such thing as free will, which means we're all just a bunch of mindless playthings (breathing, bleeding action figures) for some cosmic God-child, subject solely to his whimsy, and our entire existence is pretty much theologically and philosophically pointless, as nothing we do, or choose to do, ultimately matters in the slightest.

Basically, the generally accepted theological view is that people do what people choose to do, and then, at the appointed time, when the Final Judgment arrives, they are judged by God for their actions.

Or that's the rumor, anyway.




(edited by Stilton on 16.12.05 1900)


He was a popular attraction until he choked to death on a corn kernel.
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.19
I am not intending to take this to a theological level, but it's not that guys like Hitler, etc were "damned too hell" no matter what, but that the Big Guy doesn't live in the present like you and me, but lives in the everytime. So he knows the choices that Hitler (and I) are going to make, and directs His plan accordingly. God may send an Angel to someone, but it's mostly because He already knows what the answer is - eventually anyway (see Jonah). So, in essence, yeah, we have free will - it's just that God knows what the choices people are going to make are and so he can nudge the right folks to the right place at the right time to make His will come true.



    The one obvious exception would be for self-preservation because no state ever has the right to be the aggressor, according to fundamentalist theology.


Fundamentalists usually have a strong basis in a book of some sort (Bible, Q'uran, Book of Mormon, or another one. So I don't know what or where you base this on. I see no Bible basis for this. Most of the stuff in the New Testament (which is really all that currently applies to Christians) is directed at individuals. Individual activity is certainly different than collective activity. People grouped in Churches have different roles (for example, there's no limitation for an individual in private worship, but in public or corporate worship, people are to be dignified and sedate and limit themselves), as do people as controlled by government entities.

Since I see nothing limiting a government from almost any activity ( Rom 13:1-7, and 1 Peter 2:13-17). Can a government be evil? I am sure that evil governments exist. But even in these governmental agencies, Christians are called to be good, live well and be an example.

I'm done. PM me if you want to take it further.



(edited by AWArulz on 16.12.05 2242)


We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 108 days
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.02
The very idea that God uses people to execute his will is a fundamental theological nonsequitor. It ignores the concept of a free human will, and treats human beings as though they are little more than puppets of the divine. It simply doesn't wash theologically.
God can still use people to do His will, even if they have free will. Just because God sends an angel (or bush or cloud or whatever) to someone doesn't mean that particular person will say yes. We read about the people who say yes because they accomplish great things. We don't ever read or hear about people who say no (aside from Jonah, at least). I mean, there's no story behind the person who says no and then continues their life. Unfortunately, we also hear stories about people who think they hear God but do not.

And, just because God can make something good come out of a tragedy does not mean He preordained that tragedy.



"Teach children that they have great potential because they are human." -Warrior
El Nastio
Andouille








Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.80
In regards to people saying "no" to God and moving on with their lives, there is Balem and his ass. Moses was also VERY relunctant. At one point, Moses actually refused to do what the Lord commanded him to do and so his wife ac tually did it for him.


    Originally posted by Corajudo
    And, just because God can make something good come out of a tragedy does not mean He preordained that tragedy.



Well said. Actually, your whole last post was very well said Corajudo. Saves me the hassle of typing that out myself =)



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Out of curiosity - by what are you basing this on? Her husband did decrease military spending, but he didn't exactly expand social programs.
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