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20.12.14 0626
The W - Current Events & Politics - Stanley "Tookie" Williams denied clemency
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It's False
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Since: 20.6.02
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.83
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned.

Gang leader set to die as appeals fail - Yahoo! News

Of course, I post it due to immense fears that this execution could lead to yet another round of L.A. riots. People in urban neighborhoods out here are ready to bolt their doors shut.

Execution comes at 12:00 AM pacific time.




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Since: 23.7.04
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.35
I can't help but think that Tookie would have had a better shot at clemency if he had showed remorse about what he did.

What I don't get is why this case is so important (moreso than any other death penalty case). Is there compelling evidence of innocence? I haven't heard that brought up. If you're advocating against the death penalty, it seems there are lots of guys who would be better people to advocate for then this guy.

(edited by BigSteve on 13.12.05 0140)
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.35
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    I can't help but think that Tookie would have had a better shot at clemency if he had showed remorse about what he did.

    What I don't get is why this case is so important (moreso than any other death penalty case). Is there compelling evidence of innocence? I haven't heard that brought up. If you're advocating against the death penalty, it seems there are lots of guys who would be better people to advocate for then this guy.

    (edited by BigSteve on 13.12.05 0140)


Two major reasons.

1. People against the death penalty reagrdless of the circumstances.

2. He had supposedly been redeemed and was doing good. The arguments were moreso that he has done much good, found God, and should be allowed to live to continue his good works.

Just asking and I don't know, but maybe he protested innocence because he was innocent of these particular deaths.



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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.83
The third major reason is that the guy wrote a bunch of books condemning gang life and encouraging young people not to join gangs. He also had a lot of celebrity friends that advocated clemency for him. Unfortunately, that counts for more in the press than finding someone more deserving.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty in all circumstances, but I would certainly choose someone other than the co-founder of the Crips (who, in addition to all the problems caused by his gang, personally killed at least 4 people in cold blood) as my poster child against the death penalty. For example, the guy whose lawyer fell asleep during his trial, all the guys protesting innocence who never got DNA testing when a DNA test would be available, or a couple of the guys executed who were almost certainly innocent.



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Since: 20.3.02
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.75
US executes 1,001 person.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty, but I have to agree with Corajudo above. This isn't exaclty the guy who was going to set the example for how wrong the death penalty was.

Here, it looks as if the law has been followed and Schwarzenegger's argument against granting clemency was actually somewhat convincing. There wasn't really much that could have been done here here to sway people into having a change of heart given the circumstances.

Sadly, I looked at the Los Angeles Times website this morning to see if they had the headline "TERMINATED!" They didn't.
oldschoolhero
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Since: 2.1.02
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.81
I haven't followed the case as closely as some, but I would imagine that most folks' problem with the decision comes from Williams' supposed rehabilitation. If this man had changed to such an extent as documented, then putting him to death could be construed as a kick in the nuts of the system itself. If this man, convicted of four murders, can turn himself around from within prison, and still faces the death penalty, then is it a shot to the idea of the redemptive process and forgiveness? Like I say, I'm not taking either side here, more just playing Devil's Advocate.



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Since: 7.2.04
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.79
Can I be the voice of dissent here?

In the eyes of the law, I don't think "being redeemed" and "finding God" (I guess God didn't see him coming first, huh?) are viable legal defences, and neither is saying, "I know I did very bad things, and I'm really really sorry."

The guy practically invented violent street gangs. He planted a seed that has grown into one the vilest and most horrendous scourges of contemporary Western civilization. He could blow smoke about how terrible it all is until the cows come home; he could apologize until the ends of time; he could be on good deed patrol 24 hours a day, but no amount of good behaviour could possibly absolve him of the cancer he injected into the modern world.

I think's it's admirable that in the face of his sentence he made an attempt to right his wrongs, but his wrongs still fester. He deserved to be punished. I'm not an advocate of the death sentence, but if that's the card he drew, I'm not shedding any tears for him.



(edited by Stilton on 13.12.05 1347)


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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.29
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    I haven't followed the case as closely as some, but I would imagine that most folks' problem with the decision comes from Williams' supposed rehabilitation. If this man had changed to such an extent as documented, then putting him to death could be construed as a kick in the nuts of the system itself. If this man, convicted of four murders, can turn himself around from within prison, and still faces the death penalty, then is it a shot to the idea of the redemptive process and forgiveness? Like I say, I'm not taking either side here, more just playing Devil's Advocate.
I'll see your Devil's Advocate and raise it with this:

Why does it take 24 years to get from sentence handed down to sentence carried? Should he be given a pass because he was able to do some good works on borrowed time while his lawyers stretched out the process? And just how many good works make up for taking four lives? Heck, how about just for ONE life?

On the plus side, Los Angeles hasn't burned to the ground - or should I have said "on the minus side?" ;-)



CRZ
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.35
Zed, to answer your question, no number of good works makes up for what he was convicted of doing. In reality the question of redemption, rehabilitation, or whatever, is essentially moot here. He was sentenced to death which means society determined all that was irrelevant.

I am not in favor of the death penalty for one over riding reason, executing an innocent individual. That said, if we have the law it should be caried out in a speedy manner.

The real question we can't seem to grasp is how do we stop the cycle of violence all too prevelant in our society. Not making excuses for him but in the future, what steps can we take now to stop the senseless taking of lives.



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Since: 7.2.02

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.33
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    I am not in favor of the death penalty for one over riding reason, executing an innocent individual. That said, if we have the law it should be caried out in a speedy manner.


And now that DNA evidence is exonerating quite a few "guilty people" these days, it's realistic fear.

Personally, I don't think the government should be in the business of executing its own citizens, regardless of the crime. I'm amazed that the loudest pro-capital punishment folks tend to be the one's who also shout "smaller government". How much larger can a government get when it is allowed to kill its own citizens?

Even more amazing to me how folks how rail against the legal system when OJ or Robert Blake get off, but suddenly lose all sense of critique when someone is sentenced to death.
TheOldMan
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Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.06
    Originally posted by Corajudo
    Personally, I'm against the death penalty in all circumstances, but I would certainly choose someone other than the co-founder of the Crips (who, in addition to all the problems caused by his gang, personally killed at least 4 people in cold blood) as my poster child against the death penalty.


But isn't this exactly they kind of person you need to make your argument? Nearly everyone would agree that a person exonerated by DNA evidence shouldn't be executed. You have to say that John Wayne Gacy shouldn't have been executed, that someone who raped and killed two nuns shouldn't be executed, cop killers shouldn't be executed.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty. But for me, it's as much because of economic reasons as anything. When it costs 2 or 3 times to prosecute a death penalty case all the way to the death chamber (over the cost of life imprisonment), it's fairly stupid to keep doing it, especially in these numbers. Particularly given the accompanying evidence (DNA and anecdotal) about the uneven manner in which capital crimes are tried and defended.

I was all for our former Gov. Ryan here tossing out the lot of death row sentences here in Illinois, because the number of people proved innocent while waiting to die (I want to say something like 13 condemned inmates in a 4 year period) in this state showed that the process was flawed well beyond the chances of not executing someone for a crime they didn't commit.

That said, I have no moral objection to the death penalty in principle, if used under extraordinary circumstances, with a higher standard of evidence and competent counsel required to meet the highest burden of the penalty phase. And "redeeming yourself" while the appeal process plays out has no part in this. Hopefully that will count with the next judge an executed person faces (if you believe as such), but it doesn't fix what happened to get you strapped to that gurney.

Just as I don't believe that our corrupt former Gov. Ryan here should get any sympathy for handling the death row issue here, in respect to his ongoing trial. Anything he did for the condemned inmates doesn't fix what happened to the people killed by a truck driver who bribed his way to a license back when Ryan was in charge of the DMV as Secretary of State. (A widespread "Licenses for Bribes" scandal related to systematic generating of campaign contributions)
Eddie Famous
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Since: 11.12.01
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.24

    Originally posted by CRZ
    On the plus side, Los Angeles hasn't burned to the ground - or should I have said "on the minus side?" ;-)


Perhaps they realized that Tookie would have just as easily killed them instead.



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Since: 17.11.02

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74
I'm not much for religion, but doesn't the bible say "...an eye for an eye." somewhere in there?

Besides, isn't it just a little too late to be trying to save a cold blooded killer just because he doesn't want to die himself?

...and people wonder what I have AGAINST celebrities.
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
I don't follow the Bible either, but after a quick search I found Romans 12, verses 17-21, but especially verse 19.

    Originally posted by The Apostle Paul
    Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.


It seems like no matter your POV, there's a quote from the Bible that agrees with you (note: the above does not necessarily express my opinions. Just playing Devil's Advocate).



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Since: 28.1.02
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    I don't follow the Bible either, but after a quick search I found Romans 12, verses 17-21, but especially verse 19.

      Originally posted by The Apostle Paul
      Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.


    It seems like no matter your POV, there's a quote from the Bible that agrees with you (note: the above does not necessarily express my opinions. Just playing Devil's Advocate).


I refer you to this: http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=28167 on this topic. Post 26

I think the main thing we can get out of the Williams execution is that if we intend to continue Capital punishment in this country that it should be in line with the 6th amendment. Speedy. In my post in that other thread, you can see how low the homicide rate was in the '50s - typical initial conviction to execution was 180 days - including all appeals.

(edited by AWArulz on 13.12.05 2326)


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Since: 13.4.04
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.65
Against the death penalty, but wouldn't Tookie paying the ultimate punishment be a strong message to the same would-be gang-bangers that he tried to sway?



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tricia
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Since: 5.11.05

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.59
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    I don't follow the Bible either, but after a quick search I found Romans 12, verses 17-21, but especially verse 19.

      Originally posted by The Apostle Paul
      Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.


    It seems like no matter your POV, there's a quote from the Bible that agrees with you (note: the above does not necessarily express my opinions. Just playing Devil's Advocate).


I do not have an opinion of this issue and I do not want to get involved with this argument. However:

"And from each man, too, I will demand and accounting for the life of his fellow man. 'Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.'" Genesis 9:5b-6 (my NIV study Bible)

This is something I vaguely remembered from my long stint in a conservative Calvinist school system. The footnote in my study Bible states "In killing a human being, a murderer demonstrates his contempt for God as well as for his fellow man." IF you believe that humanity is made in God's image this is (kinda-sorta) logical. EDIT: It is not always about "revenge". It is also about what the religious types consider the worth of a human, made in the Image of Their God. To kill a human is to insult the God the human is an image of.

Again, I do not want to bury myself in this discussion; it is very complicated and I have not the wisdom to form an articulate opinion. I am donating this information though, because I think it will help the curious understand the original argument about where the religious types got the idea for capital punishment. As AWArulz pointed out, there are more things in the Bible about this subject, but I remember this verse being pointed out when the subject came up in school.

(edited by tricia on 14.12.05 0444)

(edited by tricia on 14.12.05 0447)

tricia @@@:)
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.35
    Originally posted by StevieRichards
    Against the death penalty, but wouldn't Tookie paying the ultimate punishment be a strong message to the same would-be gang-bangers that he tried to sway?


In an ideal world, yes. IMO, the culture breeding gangs places little value on life and sees the world as ultimately hopeless. Add that their founder spent most of the last 20 years fighting to end the gang he started, it likely only reinforced their view of the world.



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Since: 14.1.02
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.80
Well, since we're busting out Bible quotes, I may as well toss one out there;

From Matthew, Chapter Five:

41 And whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two, 42 Give to him that asketh of thee and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away. 43 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.


That would be the definitive quote there, inregards to the "eye for an eye" thing. As in that idealogy ("eye for an eye") in is no longer applicable when it comes to Christian morality. Later on in the Gospels, Jesus put actions to words when Kephas cut off a soldier's ear, Jesus rebuked him (Kephas) and healed the soldier's ear.




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Bret screwed bret, who brought us such pieces as wisdom as: "I DID NOT come here to be attacked and trolled by these brain dead Steve Austin marks nor any Bret sheep. Thank you Mr. Zim for not paying attention to the trolls that was a great statement. I myself will not pay attention to these trolls either but continue posting clear, concise and well thought out commentary on those two worthless bastards Bret and Steve. Glad to see this board is run by intelligent people. I will however require an apology from the persons who insulted me. That was uncalled for and very low class indeed."



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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.24

    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Add that their founder spent most of the last 20 years fighting to end the gang he started


Not giving the police any information about their activities is a funny way of fighting them. Sounds like tacit support.



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