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The W - Baseball - Spiderman bases!?! (Page 2)
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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 147 days
Last activity: 140 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.44

    Originally posted by PeterStork
    and how is this any different from the cavalcade of advertisments that is the ice of an NHL hockey arena?


Because NHL hockey blows chunks the size of small planetary moons. As bad as baseball's practices can be, they cannot compare to a league that encourages goonery.



"In the sky. Lord, in the sky..."
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2674 days
Last activity: 2658 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91
I guess the on-deck circles are going to stay, though. That sucks. Ads on the walls are one thing, but ads on the actual field make me nervous.

The difference between MLB and NHL is that baseball has class. Putting movie ads on the playing field is not class, it's crass.



Red Sox 6

Yankees 1

I love to see the Yankees humiliated.
ICEMAN
Landjager








Since: 23.5.02
From: Nashville,TN

Since last post: 1688 days
Last activity: 1377 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46
I could understand if it was a spider logo in the infield or outfield but its not. It's a 4in x 4in square on a base that you won't be able to see until they show a close up on tv.

And why would Baseball want to have anything to do with NASCAR? It's only the fastest growing "sport" in the country while Baseball is struggling with steroids and their top player being a total prick. I think Baseball has bigger problems that a 4 x 4in square on the bases.






The Amazing Salami
Sujuk








Since: 23.5.02
From: Oklahoma

Since last post: 3600 days
Last activity: 3599 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.19
    Originally posted by ICEMAN
    NASCAR.... the fastest growing "sport" in the country.


These are the kinds of facts people spew without thinking about what the facts actually mean.

Yes, maybe it is the fastest growing....but only because baseball, football, hockey, basketball....they are already established. Of course they are not going to "grow" that much any more. They already have a huge fan base.

Analogy....going over growth rates in the county I live in for a bank audit I had to do a few weeks back....the "fastest growing town" is a little place called Shady Point (where Parts Unknown is REALLY from). It has a current population of about 300 people. But just a few years back it only had 150. So it doubled making it by FAR the fastest growing. But it still only has 300 people.



The Amazing Salami's Not-So-Random
W of the Arbitrary Segment of Time


OL FUZZY BASTARD
Bastard says:But it doesn't matter anyway because MICHAEL MOORE IS A FATTY! What doesn't he just die - he's so fat!!!
ICEMAN
Landjager








Since: 23.5.02
From: Nashville,TN

Since last post: 1688 days
Last activity: 1377 days
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46
    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
      Originally posted by ICEMAN
      NASCAR.... the fastest growing "sport" in the country.


    These are the kinds of facts people spew without thinking about what the facts actually mean.

    Yes, maybe it is the fastest growing....but only because baseball, football, hockey, basketball....they are already established. Of course they are not going to "grow" that much any more. They already have a huge fan base.

    Analogy....going over growth rates in the county I live in for a bank audit I had to do a few weeks back....the "fastest growing town" is a little place called Shady Point (where Parts Unknown is REALLY from). It has a current population of about 300 people. But just a few years back it only had 150. So it doubled making it by FAR the fastest growing. But it still only has 300 people.




Well, It is due to the fact that NASCAR has gone from being based mostly in the south to everywhere,they just had a race in California. It's just not a bunch of toothless hicks, like everyone seems to think, that like NASCAR.


Oh and 300?


Try about 250,000. That was how many people that were in Michigan when I went to the race in 2001. And I think they've added more seats since then.





The Amazing Salami
Sujuk








Since: 23.5.02
From: Oklahoma

Since last post: 3600 days
Last activity: 3599 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.19
    Originally posted by ICEMAN
      Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
        Originally posted by ICEMAN
        NASCAR.... the fastest growing "sport" in the country.


      These are the kinds of facts people spew without thinking about what the facts actually mean.

      Yes, maybe it is the fastest growing....but only because baseball, football, hockey, basketball....they are already established. Of course they are not going to "grow" that much any more. They already have a huge fan base.

      Analogy....going over growth rates in the county I live in for a bank audit I had to do a few weeks back....the "fastest growing town" is a little place called Shady Point (where Parts Unknown is REALLY from). It has a current population of about 300 people. But just a few years back it only had 150. So it doubled making it by FAR the fastest growing. But it still only has 300 people.

    Oh and 300?


    Try about 250,000. That was how many people that were in Michigan when I went to the race in 2001. And I think they've added more seats since then.




You completely missed the point.



The Amazing Salami's Not-So-Random
W of the Arbitrary Segment of Time


OL FUZZY BASTARD
Bastard says:But it doesn't matter anyway because MICHAEL MOORE IS A FATTY! What doesn't he just die - he's so fat!!!
ICEMAN
Landjager








Since: 23.5.02
From: Nashville,TN

Since last post: 1688 days
Last activity: 1377 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46
    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
      Originally posted by ICEMAN
        Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
          Originally posted by ICEMAN
          NASCAR.... the fastest growing "sport" in the country.


        These are the kinds of facts people spew without thinking about what the facts actually mean.

        Yes, maybe it is the fastest growing....but only because baseball, football, hockey, basketball....they are already established. Of course they are not going to "grow" that much any more. They already have a huge fan base.

        Analogy....going over growth rates in the county I live in for a bank audit I had to do a few weeks back....the "fastest growing town" is a little place called Shady Point (where Parts Unknown is REALLY from). It has a current population of about 300 people. But just a few years back it only had 150. So it doubled making it by FAR the fastest growing. But it still only has 300 people.

      Oh and 300?


      Try about 250,000. That was how many people that were in Michigan when I went to the race in 2001. And I think they've added more seats since then.




    You completely missed the point.




Whatever.


I got the point. You said that even though NASCAR has a growing audience it is still is small, which is bullshit. I'm tired of having this argument with people,if you can't see that it's more than just a bunch of rednecks you're just blind.



The Amazing Salami
Sujuk








Since: 23.5.02
From: Oklahoma

Since last post: 3600 days
Last activity: 3599 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.19
    Originally posted by ICEMAN
      Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
        Originally posted by ICEMAN
          Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
            Originally posted by ICEMAN
            NASCAR.... the fastest growing "sport" in the country.


          These are the kinds of facts people spew without thinking about what the facts actually mean.

          Yes, maybe it is the fastest growing....but only because baseball, football, hockey, basketball....they are already established. Of course they are not going to "grow" that much any more. They already have a huge fan base.

          Analogy....going over growth rates in the county I live in for a bank audit I had to do a few weeks back....the "fastest growing town" is a little place called Shady Point (where Parts Unknown is REALLY from). It has a current population of about 300 people. But just a few years back it only had 150. So it doubled making it by FAR the fastest growing. But it still only has 300 people.

        Oh and 300?


        Try about 250,000. That was how many people that were in Michigan when I went to the race in 2001. And I think they've added more seats since then.




      You completely missed the point.




    Whatever.


    I got the point. You said that even though NASCAR has a growing audience it is still is small, which is bullshit. I'm tired of having this argument with people,if you can't see that it's more than just a bunch of rednecks you're just blind.


No, that's not what I said. And if you think that's what I said, you missed the point. NASCAR may be as big as football or whatever, and it may be equal in a lot of people's eyes, but being the "fastest growing" doesn't make it "better" because football has had its huge fanbase established for some time where as NASCAR hasn't. THAT was my point. The "fastest growing" comparison is misleading because the other major sports (baseball is what this thread is about) are already huge. Now saying that NASCAR is much better than the WNBA or MLS or some other relatively new venture because it has grown faster would be valid. Anyhow, my point was NOT that NASCAR is small and small is small or whatever you said. If that's what you feel like I inferred, I apologize for not being more clear in my original post.

And I don't know where you are coming up with the "redneck" stuff. I NEVER mentioned that.

Aside: If you think the "Parts Unknown" crack was meant to be something that had to do with "rednecks"....let me explain...the guy who posts here, over 1000 posts, contributor, goes by the user name PARTS UNKNOWN....he actually lives in Shady Point, the little town I was talking about.



The Amazing Salami's Not-So-Random
W of the Arbitrary Segment of Time


OL FUZZY BASTARD
Bastard says:But it doesn't matter anyway because MICHAEL MOORE IS A FATTY! What doesn't he just die - he's so fat!!!
ICEMAN
Landjager








Since: 23.5.02
From: Nashville,TN

Since last post: 1688 days
Last activity: 1377 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46
    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
      Originally posted by ICEMAN




      Whatever.


      I got the point. You said that even though NASCAR has a growing audience it is still is small, which is bullshit. I'm tired of having this argument with people,if you can't see that it's more than just a bunch of rednecks you're just blind.


    No, that's not what I said. And if you think that's what I said, you missed the point. NASCAR may be as big as football or whatever, and it may be equal in a lot of people's eyes, but being the "fastest growing" doesn't make it "better" because football has had its huge fanbase established for some time where as NASCAR hasn't. THAT was my point. The "fastest growing" comparison is misleading because the other major sports (baseball is what this thread is about) are already huge. Now saying that NASCAR is much better than the WNBA or MLS or some other relatively new venture because it has grown faster would be valid. Anyhow, my point was NOT that NASCAR is small and small is small or whatever you said. If that's what you feel like I inferred, I apologize for not being more clear in my original post.

    And I don't know where you are coming up with the "redneck" stuff. I NEVER mentioned that.

    Aside: If you think the "Parts Unknown" crack was meant to be something that had to do with "rednecks"....let me explain...the guy who posts here, over 1000 posts, contributor, goes by the user name PARTS UNKNOWN....he actually lives in Shady Point, the little town I was talking about.




Did I say that NASCAR was better?

No.


And NASCAR isn't exactly a spring chicken while still younger than most sports, It's still 50+ years old. And the "Fastest Growing Sport" thing actually came from that it is growing across the country, track wise And Fanbase wise.


NASCAR has moved from being based mostly in the South to having tracks in California,Las Vegas,New York,New Hampshire,Delaware,Pennslyvania,Michigan and Texas. And in everyone of those states the fanbase has grown from people who would never watch a NASCAR race to people who become diehard fans.


I love Baseball and I love Nascar, I just got offended by acting like comparing Baseball to Nascar was a bad thing. I can understand the ad thing cause NASCAR does it for a reason and I would hate that to happen to baseball. In NASCAR that's how they pay for things they need. They need it to survive, I don't think they need it in Baseball.



Just don't act like a 4 x 4in sqaure on a base is the end of the world.



BTW: The redneck stuff was stupid. You never said anyting like that I'm sorry.



(edited by ICEMAN on 7.5.04 1500)

(edited by Guru Zim on 7.5.04 1306)


Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 32 min.
AIM:  
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
MLB:

2003 67,630,052
2002 67,885,378

source: http://www.ballparkwatch.com/ features/ attendance_by_average_2003_mlb.htm and an excel file where I added the totals.

NFL:


2003 21,639,040
2002 21,505,138

source: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7216807

NHL:

2003-2004: 20,336,162
2002-2003: 20,390,908

Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/ nhl/attendance?year=2004, http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/ attendance?year=2003 and an excel file again.


I can't find numbers for Nascar, but I bet they are much lower than both of these. I'm doing attendance, not TV viewers.

It's pretty obvious it's going to be lower though. If they ran year round with 1/4 million a week at one big race, thats 52 * 250,000 -- or 1/4 * 52,000,000 . That number would be 13 million in attendance.

They aren't anywhere near that many races with that kind of attendance, are they?



(edited by Guru Zim on 7.5.04 1303)


Willful ignorance of science is not commendable. Refusing to learn the difference between a credible source and a shill is criminally stupid.
ICEMAN
Landjager








Since: 23.5.02
From: Nashville,TN

Since last post: 1688 days
Last activity: 1377 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46




Well NASCAR doesn't release attendance figures for some reason.They announced the attendance for the race at was at, they just don't release it to the public.


And it's kind hard to gauge the attendance since each track isn't the same size and doesn't have the same number of seats. And they race 36 races a year which is a lot less then the MLB,NBA and NHL.





JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
It's probably close to 4 million: 36 races * 100,000 per = 3.6 million, and I know plenty of tracks have over 100k capacity.

The nationwide expansion has led to larger tracks. North Wilkesboro used to have two races a year at a half-mile track. Wilkesboro was replaced by (I think) California and Texas. California is a 2-mile track and Texas is 1.5 miles.

EDIT: I'd be willing to bet that NASCAR has a higher sell-out percentage than any of the "big four" sports. Most of the tracks are full (except Rockingham) for every race.

(edited by JayJayDean on 7.5.04 1354)


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TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
Something else to keep in mind is that MLB, NFL, NBA attendance figures, etc., are formed from 14-15 stadiums being used at once (theoretically speaking). NASCAR only has one stadium in use on any given week. I'm not saying that the "projected" figures need to be multiplied by 15 or anything like that, but if they had enough cars, let's say, I could see total attendance being on par with the NHL, or maybe a little less than that.
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
(deleted by Zeruel on 7.5.04 1655)
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
    Originally posted by TheCow
    Something else to keep in mind is that MLB, NFL, NBA attendance figures, etc., are formed from 14-15 stadiums being used at once (theoretically speaking). NASCAR only has one stadium in use on any given week. I'm not saying that the "projected" figures need to be multiplied by 15 or anything like that, but if they had enough cars, let's say, I could see total attendance being on par with the NHL, or maybe a little less than that.


Yeah, but if there was only ONE baseball game a year, I'd be sure that I was there. I might not go if there were 82 others that I could make. I doubt you'd see 100k per event with more events.

Additionally, it's kind of silly to argue that if there were more cars you could multiply the attendance figures. More drivers = dilution of talent = less star power per event, so you'd probably see fewer people per event due to that.

Also, there aren't more tracks and events. Presumably, this is due to the inability to turn a profit, or barriers to entry to the business.

In conclusion, NASCAR is small. Sorry.



Willful ignorance of science is not commendable. Refusing to learn the difference between a credible source and a shill is criminally stupid.
TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
Oh, I was fully aware of the fact that attendance would tail off if there were events at more than one track every week. The point I was trying to make that if you have 1 track, 100k people, that doesn't necessarily mean 10 tracks, 10k people at each track. Think exponential decay for each track. You'd see fewer people attending per event, but overall attendance would be greater. (This is, of course, assuming they still run a season that's the same length.) That's the only point I was trying to make. Besides, if you did notice, I was comparing it to the NHL.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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AIM:  
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
    Originally posted by TheCow
    Oh, I was fully aware of the fact that attendance would tail off if there were events at more than one track every week. The point I was trying to make that if you have 1 track, 100k people, that doesn't necessarily mean 10 tracks, 10k people at each track. Think exponential decay for each track. You'd see fewer people attending per event, but overall attendance would be greater. (This is, of course, assuming they still run a season that's the same length.) That's the only point I was trying to make. Besides, if you did notice, I was comparing it to the NHL.


And I was saying, NASCAR is small.

Heck, the Cirque du Soleil pulls in $450 million per year in ticket revenue. I don't think NASCAR is anywhere near that. If you put the average ticket price @ $50 you have 9 million per year seeing them. Even at $100 ticket price average, you are at 4.5 million. That's still above NASCAR most likely.

Source: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ cirque.htm

Ticket prices from memory. I believe it was $50-$100 when they were here with Varekei. We didn't go, but I hear it was "Breathtaking". Eh.

If you can't out-pull the circus, you are small.



Willful ignorance of science is not commendable. Refusing to learn the difference between a credible source and a shill is criminally stupid.
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    In conclusion, NASCAR is small.


I think "small" is overstating a bit, no? Arena Football is "small". The National Lacrosse League is "small". The WNBA is "small". NASCAR is at least above them, and yes I am stretching for extreme examples of smallness there.

Look at it this way: The Rose Bowl happens once a year. It is not "small". It takes place at a venue that seats slightly more than 100,000 people.

NASCAR stages an event at an at-LEAST Rose Bowl-sized facility almost EVERY WEEK from February to November. The Winston (or whatever it's called now, the Nextel All-Star Challenge I think) had 140,000 in attendance last year (source: nascar.com) and it DIDN'T EVEN COUNT.

Comparing sports like football and baseball to NASCAR is definitely an apples-to-orange comparison for reason duly noted in previous posts. But NASCAR USED to be small, with nearly every race in the Southeast save a small few. Not there are races in every part of the US except the Northwest, and there is a SERIOUS push for an 80,000-seat facility here in Washington or Oregon. The economic impact of the race has been measured as like hosting the Super Bowl, EVERY YEAR. People don't build 80,000-seat race tracks for something "small".



“To get ass, you’ve got to bring ass." -- Roy Jones Jr.

"Your input has been noted.
I hope you don't take it personally if I disregard it."
-- Guru Zim

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ICEMAN
Landjager








Since: 23.5.02
From: Nashville,TN

Since last post: 1688 days
Last activity: 1377 days
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.46
Well since NASCAR doesn't publish it's attendance figures this is the best I can find.

Click Here (mainstreammediaonline.com)

(edited by ICEMAN on 7.5.04 1723)




(edited by ICEMAN on 7.5.04 1733)



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