The W
Views: 97674734
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Calendar | Color chart | Log in for more!
25.7.14 1057
The W - Baseball - Sosa to hang 'em up? Register and log in to post!
Thread rated: 5.08
Pages: 1
(668 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (13 total)
Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 3 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.94
Sammy Sosa's agent says he's turned down an offer from the Washington Nationals, and will probably retire.

It's interesting to ponder whether he'll make the Hall Of Fame. He's got some impressive career numbers (5th in HRs, 33rd in RBIs), and not long ago it would have been inconceivable that someone with 588 career HRs would not have gotten in (barring a Pete Rose situation). However, he really had a mediocre start to his career, a few tremendous years, and then a couple more bad years at the end. Add in the bat-corking scandal and the links to steroid investigations, and there's a real case for passing him up.

And I'm not sure whether it's a case of a truly great player who couldn't sustain that greatness, or a not-so-great player who cheated and/or doped his way into a few years of appearing to be great.

It's also notable that he won't join the 600 club, and probably no one will for a number of years (I don't think Griffey will get there; A-Rod probably will, down the road).
Promote this thread!
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 12 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.38
I see this as a ploy. Sam's still (or at least he was when I saw him last year) having fun playing and interacting. He was having a terrible year, but he looked like he was having a heck of a time.

And not get into the hall? You're crazy. 1st Ballot when he's eligible.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

An egomaniacal cheater who was a butcher in the field, and had an inflated run during a suspicious era of over-the-top production, an awful teammate, and an all-around blight on the game. Thanks for the memories of the corked bat, the shattered boombox and the sudden loss of ability to speak English in front of Congress.

He will not get in on the first ballot. Someone is going to be the sacrificial lamb for the steroid cloud, and of all the major names Sosa is the easiest to justify leaving off (McGwire had big years before what people see as the Roid Era, Palmeiro had 3,000 hits even though he got caught, Bonds will be 1st or 2nd all time in HR). He may get in at some point, but I foresee a lot of columns in 2011 explaining why various writers made the decision to leave him off their ballot.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2 hours
Last activity: 2 hours
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    I see this as a ploy. Sam's still (or at least he was when I saw him last year) having fun playing and interacting. He was having a terrible year, but he looked like he was having a heck of a time.

    And not get into the hall? You're crazy. 1st Ballot when he's eligible.


I think the big thing here is that Sosa was at no point what I would have called one of the best players in the game. The only stat he has that's pretty impressive is his home runs, and nearly half of them came in a four-year span (a ridiculous four-year period where home run totals were inflated across the board). What does that say about the rest of his career?

He wasn't a great hitter. He sure was powerful for a little while, but how many times did you see him swinging on his heels when a ground ball would have driven in a run? He wasn't a smart player, he was a selfish one. There's a reason he never played on any very good teams. He had more to do with Chicago's inability to get over the top than vice versa, as far as I'm concerned.

Sosa wore out his welcome five or six years ago, and I'm glad I won't have to see him anymore. I tolerated him in 1998 because he made McGwire's chase more exciting, but I had no use for Sosa before or after that season.

He was a decent power hitter in The Era of Decent Power Hitters, with a bad attitude and an over-inflated ego (to go with over-inflated numbers) that I don't think deserves the game's greatest honor.

EDIT: Let me add, however, that I think Sosa WILL get in, probably on the first ballot. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I just think history will choose to remember the 60-homer seasons rather than the corked bat or the steroid issue. And more power to him, asshole or not.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 17.2.06 1222)
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 244 days
Last activity: 238 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.94

    Originally posted by spf
    Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    An egomaniacal cheater who was a butcher in the field, and had an inflated run during a suspicious era of over-the-top production, an awful teammate, and an all-around blight on the game.


Oooo, Someone's still mad about the Sosa-for-Bell trade.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    There's a reason he never played on any very good teams.


He was a few innings away from the World Series...closer than, say, Ernie Banks. You have a better case to make with Mark Grace's useless hide being carried for many years.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    He was a decent power hitter in The Era of Decent Power Hitters


1998: 66 HR, 158 RBI, .308 AVG
1999: 63-141-.288
2000: 50-138-.320
2001: 64-160-.328

He was one of the best and most productive during that time, and to say otherwise is silly.

Add in two 30-30 years and 3 30-SB years overall (pre-growth), and he's in the Hall easily.



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of February 2, 2006: 197 pounds "I've lost a cruiserweight"
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Oooo, Someone's still mad about the Sosa-for-Bell trade.


Not in the slightest. See, that's the thing, Sox fans are the group who never bought into the Sosa hype. We remember him when he was a 160 pounder with continual visa problems and no head for the game. And watching the monstrosity he became up there I was never sad that he wasn't with us. And now that the rest of the world is turning against him, it feels like they're catching up to where we were when he was chest thumping McGwire in '98.

I agree he was productive (though his numbers already seem bigger in a context where no one is putting up these numbers anymore) but between the circumstantial evidence that he was likely using performance enhancers and the fact he was caught using a corked bat (and I see no reason to believe that any of his power burst was not somewhat helped by that) I have to look at those numbers through a very different lens.

Besides, if Jack McDowell doesn't tip his pitches in the ALCS, we would have been in the series 12 years sooner with Bell at DH.

(edited by spf on 17.2.06 1217)

(edited by spf on 17.2.06 1219)
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2 hours
Last activity: 2 hours
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    1998: 66 HR, 158 RBI, .308 AVG
    1999: 63-141-.288
    2000: 50-138-.320
    2001: 64-160-.328

    He was one of the best and most productive during that time, and to say otherwise is silly.


Productive? I guess, if home runs and RBI are all that matter to you. Best? No. Look at it this way: he had 588 career homers, but 243 of them came in this stretch, which also saw two other guys hit *70 home runs* in single seasons. Those seasons don't hold the same weight as Maris and Ruth's 60-homer seasons. They're roughly the equivelent of 35-40 home run seasons in other eras, to pull a number completely out of my ass. The guy averaged about 25 homers a season for the rest of his 17-year career, including a little over 30 a year the four years before the 1998 explosion. Not only did more than 40 percent of his home runs come in a four-year window, but so did nearly 40 percent of his RBI.

Even if you think those four years are amazing, does 13 years of pretty good and four years of excellence make a hall of famer? When you take into account how questionable that "excellence" is, I say no.

For his career, Sosa had nearly as many strikeouts (2194) as he did hits (2304). Compare that to his contemporaries: Bonds (1434 to 2742), Griffey (1416 to 2304), Palmeiro (1348 to 3020) or Albert Belle (961 to 1726). McGwire had a similar ratio (1596 to 1626), and I think he's questionable for the same reasons Sosa is.

I think Mac gets the nod where Sosa doesn't, however, because his power run started as soon as he came up (a record 49 home runs and 118 RBI as a rookie) and lasted pretty much his whole career. Sosa had just four 100-RBI seasons outside of 1998-2001, with a high of 119. Sounds like, say, Matt Williams (baseball-reference.com) to me.

And the Cubs' NLCS run? I think it was even more impressive because they overcame the useless dead weight that was Sammy Sosa to do it. Sosa's career playoff numbers (in 15 games) include a .245 batting average, two home runs and seven RBI. He did manage an amazing 17 strikeouts in just 53 at-bats, though.

So what was he the best at? Standing there, watching pitch after pitch go through the strikezone until he saw one that might go over the fence if he took a hack at it? He never drew walks like McGwire or Bonds, he definitely wasn't a dependable fielder, to say the least, and he gave up whatever speed he might have had early in his career to wow people with his ability to hit nearly one homerun for every four strikeouts.

To clarify, again: I think Sosa WILL be a hall of famer, because people a few years from now will see "588 homers? Three 60-homer seasons? How can he not be?", and I think they will be wrong for it.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 17.2.06 1410)
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2751 days
Last activity: 2479 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.72
Holy crap, after sitting through that monstrosity of a .295 OBP last year, I'm going to have to come on here and be a Sosa apologist?

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    I guess, if home runs and RBI are all that matter to you.


That and four straight years with an OPS over 1.000, five straight years with an OPS+ over 140, four times a .300 hitter, twice a .320 hitter, 234 stolen bases, and a career .537 SLG.


    which also saw two other guys hit *70 home runs* in single seasons. Those seasons don't hold the same weight as Maris and Ruth's 60-homer seasons.


Sosa hit sixty homers three times in his career. Mcgwire and Bonds combined to do it three times. Even in the context of his era, there was no one that did was Sosa did.


    They're roughly the equivelent of 35-40 home run seasons in other eras, to pull a number completely out of my ass.


Pretty much. Homeruns were inflated in the '90's of course, but in the "normal era" plenty of guys hit 35 HR in a season, but even in the juiced era there was a total of three guys that hit over 60 HR so those totals aren't nearly equivalent.


    The guy averaged about 25 homers a season for the rest of his 17-year career, including a little over 30 a year the four years before the 1998 explosion. Not only did more than 40 percent of his home runs come in a four-year window, but so did nearly 40 percent of his RBI.


First of all, throw out the two seasons where he played less than 70 games each year and the 12 homeruns he hit in those years, and that average jumps to a whopping 38+ HR a year which is a much fairer representation that counting partial seasons.

Also, the arbitrary four year period before his peak is artificially lowered by the 1994 strike season. The four full seasons '98 saw him average 36+ HR a season which would be a great peak, but it wasn't even close to his peak. And even in the next three years after that four year window, he averaged over 41 HR a year.


    And the Cubs' NLCS run? I think it was even more impressive because they overcame the useless dead weight that was Sammy Sosa to do it.


So the Cubs would have been better off without .279/.358/.553/ 40-103 line he put up in the regular season as well as the .358/.455/.577 and 2HR he had in the LCS? In what way was he not *by far* the best hitter on that Cubs team?

That being said, I agree with spf's "good riddance" comment, even though it would have been kind of fun to see how bad he would have been playing half of his games in RFK.



He's got that hand-waving deal. He can become INVISIBLE! This means MONEY, Dawg! - AWARulz on Cena.
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 244 days
Last activity: 238 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.94

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Sosa had just four 100-RBI seasons outside of 1998-2001, with a high of 119. Sounds like, say, Matt Williams to me.


So if you take out Matt Williams' best four years, you end up with Mike Paglirulo? An odd way to compare players.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    He never drew walks like McGwire or Bonds


Yes, he was never pitched around or intentionally walked 50+ times in a season, yet he still hit over .300 three times in those peak years, unlike McGwire. Bonds is in the ridiculous category. BTW, Sosa did have two seasons of over 100 walks, one of which he had only 15 intentional walks.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    he definitely wasn't a dependable fielder, to say the least


No he wasn't but he was certainly better than someone like Lou Brock. Sosa led the league 3 times in errors, 3 times in putouts and twice in assists. Could have been a lot worse.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    with his ability to hit nearly one homerun for every four strikeouts.


Reggie Jackson: 2597 K in 9864 at bats 26.3%
Mark McGwire: 1596 in 6197 25.7%
Sosa: 2110 in 8021 26.3%

Keep them all out!



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of February 2, 2006: 197 pounds "I've lost a cruiserweight"
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2 hours
Last activity: 2 hours
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
First of all, Reggie Jackson has something neither McGwire nor Sosa do: a history of postseason dominance, both in terms of individual performance and the teams he played on. Fair or not, the three-homer game in the 1978 Series overshadows any bad thing you might possibly say about Reggie. And like I already said, I think McGwire raises most of the same questions Sosa does.

So Sosa may have had an alright series in the NLCS (which his team lost) one year, but look at his numbers for that series and look at his career postseason numbers; how bad must he have played in the NLDS that year? That's why I said it's amazing the Cubs overcame him to get that far.

And Sosa's career home run total, as far as I'm concerned, is no more impressive than Andre Dawson's or Dave Kingman's, two guys who hit around 450 back when that was impressive but I wouldn't say are hall of famers. Those home runs are the only thing Sosa has going for him - a couple 30/30 seasons are nice, but the man had 20 stolen bases in a season just once after he turned 26, and never double digits after the age of 28 - and considering he played in an era that made a home run about as an infield single, I don't think that one number makes up for his many shortcomings (poor fielding, stupid hitting, inability to win).

And the Matt Williams comparison: I'm saying Sosa's best four seasons can't just be taken at face value because of the home run explosion. I just don't think Sosa is among the game's greatest players, from this or any other era, and his home run total isn't enough to convince me otherwise.
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2751 days
Last activity: 2479 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.72

    First of all, Reggie Jackson has something neither McGwire nor Sosa do: a history of postseason dominance, both in terms of individual performance and the teams he played on


Reggie Jackson hit .227/.298/.380 in 45 LCS games. That's not dominant. That's not even league average.


    So Sosa may have had an alright series in the NLCS (which his team lost) one year, but look at his numbers for that series and look at his career postseason numbers; how bad must he have played in the NLDS that year? That's why I said it's amazing the Cubs overcame him to get that far.


First off, looking at five games to make a determination about performance is an incredibly small sample size especially when it's at the cost of ignoring a great regular season and a great LCS. But even in the divisional series, he wasn't bad at all considering he had a .409 OBP. Typically a player that gets on base that frequently is not a liability that you have to overcome.


    And Sosa's career home run total, as far as I'm concerned, is no more impressive than Andre Dawson's or Dave Kingman's, two guys who hit around 450 back when that was impressive but I wouldn't say are hall of famers.


For comparison, in Dawson's four best consecutive HR seasons (87-90), he averaged a HR every 17.97 at bats compared to a league that hit one every 43.97 at bats. In Sosa's four best consecutive seasons (98-01), he hit a longball every 10.07 at bats compared to a league that hit one every 31.06 at bats. By that measure, Dawson "outhomered" the league by a factor of 2.44 and Sosa "outhomered" his league by a factor of 3.08. The fact that the ball was juiced makes it hard to compare raw totals between eras, but within his own era, Sosa was still head and shoulders above the league.


    many shortcomings (poor fielding, stupid hitting, inability to win).


I'll certainly give you poor fielding, but I'm not sure what stupid hitting, is, and I don't see why the Cubs best hitter gets blamed for his team's inability to win.

(edited by BigSteve on 18.2.06 1908)


He's got that hand-waving deal. He can become INVISIBLE! This means MONEY, Dawg! - AWARulz on Cena.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 389 days
Last activity: 389 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.36
First, don't compare Andre Dawson to Dave Kingman. Dawson was an all around player, Kingman was just an upgraded version of Rob Deer. Kingman was human sludge. Of course, Kingman is also the genius who agreed to a bonus if he set the club record for RBI's when he played for the Cubs, not realizing the number Hack Wilson had hung.
On this belief that McGwire had clean years before the roids: Funny, I remember the Washington Post steroid stories on Canseco coming out in the '88 ALCS against Boston when he was a Bash Brother with McGwire. Even if you somehow want to give McGwire the benefit of the doubt pre-'95 (I don't, but you can if you wish), he had some rancid seasons in the early 90's, struggling to hit over .200 at one point.
Gaylord Perry got in despite the getting caught doctoring the ball, thus the Sosa voters can use that as fall back. As for the steroids, if there is a backlash against McGwire in '07 by the voters, then Sammy might be in trouble. If not, Sammy will just join the procession of guys who slide on through.



Any complaints about the preceding post can be directed at the time traveling aliens who edited it.
BillyMyersault69
Weisswurst
Banned








Since: 17.2.06

Since last post: 3074 days
Last activity: 3074 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
the first thing I remember about sammy is "ITS SO REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL~@!1!11one!"

the second is tons of homers, the third is decent speed. He's not the best of all time, but I bet he goes in... 1st and or 2nd round?

Sounds like a lock and feels like one too for the HOF



THE WOLFMAN COMETH
Thread rated: 5.08
Pages: 1
Thread ahead: W Fantasy Baseball still available
Next thread: White Sox GM Blasts Frank Thomas
Previous thread: RIP Curt Gowdy
(668 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
I wouldn't say he's one of the most overrated. From a pure stats perspective: 5 year totals (2001 - 2005): Hits: 902 Runs: 408 2B: 196 3B: 16 HR: 159 RBI: 462 SB: 167 BB: 156 SO: 658 Career numbers: BA: .280 OBP: .320 SLG: .
The W - Baseball - Sosa to hang 'em up?Register and log in to post!

The W™ message board

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim

This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.166 seconds.