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The W - Baseball - Soriano refuses to play left
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Corajudo
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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.46
Story: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AkiLRgWCiEbhsCeTTWevd8Q5nYcB?slug=ap-nationals-soriano&prov=ap&type=lgns

This guy has got to be one of (if not the most) overrated players in MLB. Now, he refuses to play the outfield, even though Washington has an All-Star 2b who is light years ahead of Soriano in fielding. Shut up, take your spot in left and earn your $10 million. Have a good season and then sign somewhere else next year as a free agent and insist on playing 2b then. Especially since the Nationals seem like they are going to play hard ball and put him the disqualified list (meaning no paychecks and no service time).





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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
I wouldn't say he's one of the most overrated. From a pure stats perspective:

5 year totals (2001 - 2005):

Hits: 902
Runs: 408
2B: 196
3B: 16
HR: 159
RBI: 462
SB: 167
BB: 156
SO: 658

Career numbers:

BA: .280
OBP: .320
SLG: .500

So for his first five full seasons, he's averaging over 30/30 with 80 runs and 92 RBI. Who else is doing that at second base? That's pretty special.

Yes, he could draw more walks. He could also strike out less often. He could probably be better defensively as well.

I'd still make sure he was in my starting line-up if I had him.

A-Rod needs to give this guy a call and talk to him about cashing a paycheck.




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Brian P. Dermody
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Since: 20.9.02
From: New York, NY

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.32
It's just ridiculous. I'd give my left nut to have that kind of talent. And if I had it, and the Washington Nationals said that they wanted me to play left field, hell I'd do it for league minimum.

What an asshole.



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thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

    BA: .280
    OBP: .320
    SLG: .500



.320 is not so good, but I'd be more concered with how much Arlington helped him.

AVG/OBP/SLG
2005 Home: 315/355/656
2005 Away: 224/265/374

2004 Home: 317/360/526
2004 Away: 244/291/444

I don't think it's hit the masses that Arlington needs to be considered the AL Coors Filed yet, but it seems to have that sort of masking effect on players.


    Who else is doing that at second base?


It needs to be pointined out that's the crux of Soriano's arguement. He's worth tons more as a free agent 2B (where he's near the top) than a free agent LF (where he's in the pack) with the same offensive numbers, figuring on GMs overlooking that he's a horrible 2B (and probably a bad LF.)



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JoshMann
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Since: 17.11.03
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.99
It worked for Jeff Kent, though. Who fields at 2B like his glove is on backwards but was able to pillage the open market because of his bat.

Basically Soriano is Jeff Kent 2K6, but because of what it's worth I can see why he's trying to hold onto that. However, Washington is more concerned about doing what helps them win, not what helps Soriano attain peak market value, which is only a problem in a case like this where the two do not intertwine at all, since they probably stand to be more successful defensively hiding Soriano's glove in the outfield

(edited by JoshMann on 21.3.06 1503)


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Deputy Marshall
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Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.11
    Originally posted by Brian P. Dermody
    I'd give my left nut to have that kind of talent. And if I had it, and the Washington Nationals said that they wanted me to play left field, hell I'd do it for league minimum.


But if you had that kind of talent, and would play for the League minimum, would you REALLY be playing for the Nationals in the first place?

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    So for his first five full seasons, he's averaging over 30/30 with 80 runs and 92 RBI. Who else is doing that at second base? That's pretty special.


Indeed it is. You could nitpick and point out that his BA took a nosedive to .268 for the 2005 season (his OBP wasn't nearly what it should've been either for that matter), but the 104 RBIs, 30 stolen bases, and the fact that he went up in virtually every other offensive category sort of makes up for it.

That being said, his attitude stinks, so I can see where people wish he was overrated. I know I do.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 21.3.06 1508)

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BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2819 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    It needs to be pointined out that's the crux of Soriano's arguement. He's worth tons more as a free agent 2B (where he's near the top) than a free agent LF (where he's in the pack) with the same offensive numbers, figuring on GMs overlooking that he's a horrible 2B (and probably a bad LF.)



Power hitting left fielders are definately easier to find than a power hitting second baseman, but I don't think a move would cost him that much. He's going to make some serious coin either way if he can duplicate his numbers from New York and Texas. What's going to hurt him more, IMO, is a) his refusal to move to left and the image he's formed someone who isn't a team player, b) his atrocious defense at second (which I think won't be totally overlooked) and c) his numbers taking an incredible dip going from an extreme hitters' park in Arlington to an extreme pitchers' park in RFK.

I agree that he is way overrated. When your OBP is .309 playing in Texas with that lineup in that stadium, you have to do a lot of other things really well to be more than an average player. Add in his poor defense and the guy isn't nearly the superstar that he has the reputation of being.




He's got that hand-waving deal. He can become INVISIBLE! This means MONEY, Dawg! - AWARulz on Cena.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.46
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    So for his first five full seasons, he's averaging over 30/30 with 80 runs and 92 RBI. Who else is doing that at second base? That's pretty special


Well, as Thomas Boswell points out in his column (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/20/AR2006032001983.html), Soriano has the worst lifetime fielding percentage of any 2b for the last 50 years. His numbers are impressive but are inflated by the parks and lineups he's enjoyed over his career. The Nationals judged him to be only the second best 2b on their roster. Plus, the Dominican Republic benched him for Placido Polanco.

I'm not saying Soriano isn't a good player. I just don't think he's a superstar or one of the top couple of second basemen in the game. I've watched him play the past couple of years with Texas. He's a good offensive player but absolutely beastly in the field. He'd be much less of a defensive liability in a less important defensive position, like LF or 1b. He might even put up better numbers in LF since there's less wear and tear defensively.



"Teach children that they have great potential because they are human." -Warrior
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 6 hours
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.34
A guy gets you 40 homers a year, and you are going to bitch about his defense?


redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.33
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    A guy gets you 40 homers a year, and you are going to bitch about his defense?












He wouldn't be hitting 40 playing 81 games at RFK.
If Soriano wouldn't move to play the outfield for the Yankees, why would anyone think he would do it for the Nationals? Of course, if the Nationals stand there ground, it will be interesting to see how long Soriano is willing to sacrafice his salary and service time for his desire to not go to the outfield. I think Soriano will miraculously realize how much fun left-field is under those circumstances.
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2819 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    A guy gets you 40 homers a year, and you are going to bitch about his defense?





Why not? He was -25 in FRAA (Fielding Runs above Average) which means he cost the team 25 more runs in the field than the average player over the course of 2005. On the flip side, he was 21 BRAA (Batting Runs above Average). This puts him at -4 RAA (Runs above Average) total for 2005 making him a below average player. It's not just a matter of him being subpar defensively - he's downright horrible.

Dave Kingman could hit as many homers as Soriano, but no one is ever going to confuse him with a good player.



He's got that hand-waving deal. He can become INVISIBLE! This means MONEY, Dawg! - AWARulz on Cena.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.52
What's with the made up fucking statistics? The guy had 104 RBI last season. I think if he costs his team 25 runs, vs 104 rbi, its a decent risk.

And, lets not forget he was also hitting 38 pr 39 HR in New York, not exactly friendly to the right hand hitters.
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
Ok then, they're made up statistics. Either way, he's horrible defensively (21 errors last year) and that severely hurts his overall value. OBP isn't a made up statistic (in fact it might be the most important statistic in baseball) and his was a below average .309.

As for RBI, that's largely a function of his teammates getting on base and doesn't truly reflect his value at the plate. He hit a well below average .235 with runners in scoring position last year. Despite his high RBI total, he also left tons of men on base that an average hitter would have driven in.





He's got that hand-waving deal. He can become INVISIBLE! This means MONEY, Dawg! - AWARulz on Cena.
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
FWIW the Cubs media organ the Tribune is desperately trying to plant Soriano-to-Cubs rumors the last two days. I could possibly see it happening if the Cubs would part with some of their young pitchers. Maybe Jae-Kuk Ryu and Rich Hill for Soriano, or maybe Ryu and Felix Pie for him. The Cubs are looking at a 2B trio of Todd Walker, Neifi Perez and Jerry Hairston Jr. this year, so I think they would eat Soriano's skillet-hands defense for the numbers he could put up in Wrigley.



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britishiles
Head cheese








Since: 22.7.05
From: Tulsa, OK

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.57
Here is some food for thought.

Yes he will play 81 games at RFK, but he also gets to go to launching pads like Wrigley and Citizen's Bank (in Philly).

Plus how about they move Vidro to LF instead?

Who plays SS for the Nats anyway?



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Deputy Marshall
Liverwurst








Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

Since last post: 7 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.11
    Originally posted by britishiles
    Who plays SS for the Nats anyway?


Ross Clatyon, who's going to be the every day shortstop for the forseeable future. Guzman has a a tear in his shoulder that's going to cause him to be out early in the season, and it's very possible that he would have to eventually opt for surgery that would put him out for a good part of the season as a whole.




EDIT:
Our Long National(s) Nightmare is Over (ESPN.com)

Let the healing begin.



(edited by Deputy Marshall on 22.3.06 1356)


TO BILL BRASKY!

My LiveJournal, where you can read tons of stuff that you don't give a crap about.

"Doubt f***s everything. Take a foundation, no matter how strong, sprinkle generously with doubt, and watch it crumble. Me? I'm unf***withable. Not this knee, not bad weather, and certainly not the many men that wish bad intentions on me can stop me. I rise up, not like a phoenix, but like the zombie corpse of Dick Murdoch. This brainbuster is for you." - C.M. Punk
Whitebacon
Boudin blanc








Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
    Originally posted by spf
    FWIW the Cubs media organ the Tribune is desperately trying to plant Soriano-to-Cubs rumors the last two days. I could possibly see it happening if the Cubs would part with some of their young pitchers. Maybe Jae-Kuk Ryu and Rich Hill for Soriano, or maybe Ryu and Felix Pie for him. The Cubs are looking at a 2B trio of Todd Walker, Neifi Perez and Jerry Hairston Jr. this year, so I think they would eat Soriano's skillet-hands defense for the numbers he could put up in Wrigley.


No way they move Pie for him, not in a million years. It's also unlikely that they give up Hill for him.


britishisles- Wrigley isn't the launching pad it used to be. I believe it's played pretty neutral the last few years, and even then, he's only playing there 3-4 games max thanks to the unbalanced scheduling. They're not talking about moving Vidro to left because he's actually a good second baseman, and his number won't hold up as well if he's playing left, where at least Soriano's will be in the middle of the pack.



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Quezzy
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Since: 6.1.02
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.06
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    What's with the made up fucking statistics? The guy had 104 RBI last season. I think if he costs his team 25 runs, vs 104 rbi, its a decent risk.

    And, lets not forget he was also hitting 38 pr 39 HR in New York, not exactly friendly to the right hand hitters.



Well if "made up" stats don't count then well nobody has anything and everybody is completely equal, because all stats were made up by somebody at some point. Do you think RBI and HR have existed since the beginning of time?



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StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.52
You can watch a game, and see a home run. You can watch a game, and count an RBI.

Comparing players errors, vs other players at thier position related to runs scored, is just some mathmatician with nothing better to do.

Fact is, would you take a gold glove second baseman who bats .200 over Soriano, because of his fielding?



(edited by StaggerLee on 22.3.06 1923)
thecubsfan
Scrapple
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

    Fact is, would you take a gold glove second baseman who bats .200 over Soriano, because of his fielding?


You know you're being silly, right? You're making ridiculous arguements (as if the only two choices are Soriano and a Mendoza line fielder) and ignoring points you can't dismss as being stupid math.

This thread started with


    This guy has got to be one of (if not the most) overrated players in MLB.


and there was a reply with


    I'm not saying Soriano isn't a good player. I just don't think he's a superstar or one of the top couple of second basemen in the game.


which you followed up with


    A guy gets you 40 homers a year, and you are going to bitch about his defense?


Well, if they're calling someone overrated, yes, they are going to look at flaws in his overall game that may be overlooked by most.

No one seemed to be saying Soraino's a bad player, just that he's not as great as others might say.


    FWIW the Cubs media organ the Tribune


I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind who geniunely believes this to be true, but if the Tribute was truly in the Cubs pocket, why would they print, push and lobby for trades the Cubs had no intention of doing? That sort of stuff only makes the club look bad, and isn't something you'd expect if they were all on the same page.

The real weakness of the Trib sports section, at least of late, is the editors allow the writers to write an insane amount of "What If?" trade speculation which usually has no anchor in reality and just exists to fill page space and get attention. Sam Smith does every Monday, Phil Rogers is going ot pick his day of the week and push for trades that aren't going to happen and aren't actually being talked about, because it makes it look like they're much more inside then they are. It does the readers a great disservice for them to be passing off fantasy trades as quasi-real possiblites and it's turning me sour on the whole section.


    Yes he will play 81 games at RFK, but he also gets to go to launching pads like Wrigley and Citizen's Bank (in Philly).


There's some merit to that line of thinking, because it doesn't seem like the other AL West parks are hitter friendly and surely not near as much as Philly is. But it's somewhat balanced by other pitcher friendly places he'll now be going (San Diego), and heavily balanced by it only being 7-8 games in a season as compared to the 81 at RFK. I don't know for sure, but I can't think the NL parks, as a group, are that much different than the AL ones.



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