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The W - Current Events & Politics - Socialism is better than Captialism
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Tha Puerto Rican
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Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#1 Posted on
I really don't believe that the captialistic system works. It's thanks to captialism that there is greed, corruption, and racism in the goverment and in big buisness. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Therefore, a new system must be made. A new world order perhaps. We need to change from captialism to socialism therefore everyone gets a piece of the pie. Either that or anarchy.



THa Puerto Rican
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BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
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#2 Posted on
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Thank you for that moment of unadulterated joy.

BDC



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Scar
Goetta








Since: 2.1.02
From: NS, Canada

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#3 Posted on
Maybe I'm too "young" or just an idiot, but could you explain Socialism.



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Since: 4.2.02
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#4 Posted on
so socialists don't have greed or hate people who are difrunt?



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#5 Posted on

    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican
    I really don't believe that the captialistic system works. It's thanks to captialism that there is greed, corruption, and racism in the goverment and in big buisness. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Therefore, a new system must be made. A new world order perhaps. We need to change from captialism to socialism therefore everyone gets a piece of the pie. Either that or anarchy.
Wow, you need to get out of New York STAT.



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eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
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#6 Posted on
You guys shouldn't pick on him just because he's right.



Seriously, though, you should read some arguments for both sides of the fence. While I happen to agree, pinning racism on capitalism is a tired argument. Obviously capitalism thrives on greed, but I imagine greed was along a long time before any type of capitalism began to grow.



TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09

    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican
    I really don't believe that the captialistic system works. It's thanks to captialism that there is greed, corruption, and racism in the goverment and in big buisness. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Therefore, a new system must be made. A new world order perhaps. We need to change from captialism to socialism therefore everyone gets a piece of the pie. Either that or anarchy.


In theory, socialism is a utopia. However, every single person on the face of the Earth is selfish and does things for selfish reasons, so a socialist society can never be reached. The Soviet Union could not do it because those in power would have to give it up to reach that utopia. You complain about corruption and greed, but they are simply a byproduct of power. Any economic or social system that involves putting anyone in any position of power will have this. And the concept of anarchy is ridiculous because people will step up no matter what and take control, become leaders, resulting in a (unofficial) government.



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PinkSkunk
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Since: 2.1.02
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#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican
    I really don't believe that the captialistic system works. It's thanks to captialism that there is greed, corruption, and racism in the goverment and in big buisness. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Therefore, a new system must be made. A new world order perhaps. We need to change from captialism to socialism therefore everyone gets a piece of the pie. Either that or anarchy.


Are you in college, by any chance?




...Some fear the Pink...
...But many fear....THE MOUNTIE!
(He's handsome, he's brave, and he's strong, you know)
BDC
Chourico








Since: 26.1.02
From: Falls Church, VA

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#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    In theory, socialism is a utopia. However, every single person on the face of the Earth is selfish and does things for selfish reasons, so a socialist society can never be reached.


I know the whole deal with "in theory, socialism creates a utopia" jive. However, I fail to see how the perfect society would be one in which all people are equal working toward the common good. How is that so great? It's not, which leads to the REAL reason why socialism will never successfully be achieved. It's not because everyone is selfish. While every human is selfish to a degree, that in and of itself is not a bad thing at all, and its not the underlying cause for the failure of socialism. The real reason why socialism will always fail is because people are not equal. That's a fact. For all people to subjugate themselves equally for a greater good requires a borg-like state of equality. No personality, no individuality. No one is better or worse than the next person. Well, unfortunately (or fortunately, in my opinion), that's just not how it is.

I'm smarter than others, but dumber than others. I run faster than some people, get lapped by others. It goes on and on in every facet of life. Selfishness aside, you cannot have socialism when its a stone cold fact that people have different levels of ability.

For example, let's imagine your ideal socialist state. Now, if all the people, for the good of the society (and an inherent flaw in socialism is, of course--who decides what is the best for society?)decide that everyone needs to harvest 10 pounds of crops a day. Unless you have clones or some identical breed of man, its highly probable that SOMEONE is going to harvest that 10 pounds faster than someone else. That person is going to realize some things: in order to keep in line with what's best, he has to slow himself down so that he's not done so fast, which will lead to resentment and boredom because he knows he can finish faster; he will harvest more crops because he is able to; he will finish as normal, and sit around in boredom for the rest of his day; or he will find something else to do with the remainder of his time. Whatever happens, he's upset the equilibrium by being different, and the socialist system has failed.

People blame capitalism for its faults when the capitalist system has benefited so many and responsible for so much good. Even in the U.S., people who are by our standards poor have a TV, indoor plumbing, etc. That's because our capitalist society raised the standard of living so that even our poor are infinitely richer than a poor person from a 3rd world country. Without capitalism and the sense of competition that it breeds, we wouldn't have gone from the pentium chip to the pentium 4 in just a couple years. We wouldn't be free to have this conversation ABOUT socialism. Sure, there's still room for improvement in society--the beauty of capitalism is that things WILL improve because its in our self-interest to make improvements.

BDC



"Enjoy every moment, because every moment is your life."
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09

    I know the whole deal with "in theory, socialism creates a utopia" jive. However, I fail to see how the perfect society would be one in which all people are equal working toward the common good. How is that so great? It's not, which leads to the REAL reason why socialism will never successfully be achieved. It's not because everyone is selfish. While every human is selfish to a degree, that in and of itself is not a bad thing at all, and its not the underlying cause for the failure of socialism. The real reason why socialism will always fail is because people are not equal. That's a fact. For all people to subjugate themselves equally for a greater good requires a borg-like state of equality. No personality, no individuality. No one is better or worse than the next person. Well, unfortunately (or fortunately, in my opinion), that's just not how it is.


Agreed. A socialist society is based on a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" type of deal. However, some poeple will always claim their contributions are greater (sometimes this is true, sometimes not) and they therefore deserve more than their comrades so things are "equal."



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
Gavintzu
Summer sausage








Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
One of the things that really interests me about American political debate is how anything to the left of the Washington Post is written off as Socialism. What the Bucs Fan and BDC are arguing against is Communism -- equal results for everyone in society. (To be fair, the Puerto Rican did seem to argue for this in the opening post).

But let's leave this utopianism for a second and look at hard, cold reality. There are aspects of the economies in Canada, Europe and Asia which everyone in the States would call socialism. For example: my grandfather suffered a fairly major heart attack on Tuesday night. He will be in the hospital until at least next Wednesday. In Canada, we pay higher taxes than in the States, in large part because we have socialized medicine -- that's the downside. The upside is that my grandfather will have to pay a couple of hundred bucks at most in user fees, etc., for over a week in hospital, including a couple of days in intensive care. The government writes a cheque for the rest.

If he lived in America, how much would he pay? Are all retired persons covered by medical insurance? Are the tales of $10 asprins at privately-owned and run-for-profit hospitals urban myths?

The problem with socialism is not exactly human greed ... it is the laziness of some people. I know there are some (many?) people who are leeching off of my hard work and tax-paying by being parasites on the system. It does burn me up. Government involvement does lead to inefficiency and waste. But these are not reasons to throw away something very good for all members of society. I am willing to put up with inefficiency and higher taxes ... well because it means I live in a country where my grandfather doesn't have to sell his condo because he had a heart attack.

One last point: I wonder what the 20,000 ex-employees of Enron think of American capitalism now? When Ken Lay serves his 20 months in a minimum security prison next year and then has the rest of his life to enjoy his $40m bank account. Maybe they can go work as greeters at K-Mart ... oh wait. Have you read about the insider-trading scandals at the fine Canadian companies of Corel and Nortel? The fact is the economic system in the West is currently designed to make a select few people extremely, obscenely rich. The rest of us do enjoy a trickle-down ... some get trickled-on more than others. All Americans are richer than most in the Third World ... but many Americans are shamefully deprived compared to those in the rest of the developed world. This is where selective socialism would be useful. But that would mean each American family would have to pay a couple of hundred bucks more a year in taxes. And Yanks just don't seem to like taxes.




(edited by Gavintzu on 16.2.02 2250)
Past hills of chambermaids' dark bare arms and fields of muscles quilted to the bone, Right now I'm flying over, yeah right now I'm flying home.
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

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#12 Posted on
you enjoy paying taxes to have a decent stanrard of living and medical protection for all people? You commie-homo-jew.


/edit: probably a satanist, too.

(edited by eviljonhunt81 on 17.2.02 1438)
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#13 Posted on
Anyone who says that socialism or communism are much better than capitalism need to read more history, particularly Russian history. (Where *did* those 10-20 million people go, Mr. Stalin?) Sure, capitalism is not perfect, but it seems better than the other alternatives that have been offered throughout history and, as others have been pointing out, more accurately reflects the current nature of humanity. Christian or religious capitalism would be even better, where people with capital are not so greedy and money hungry that they will send people out in the street instead of expanding their bank account. But that is probably mostly a dream.

I *have* sometimes thought that socialized medecine would be a good deal, especially when you don't have a job and can't get health care, but the problem I would have is the *quality* of care you would get. Sure, everyone would get care, but it would all be like going to the poor county clinic to get seen. This is the problem Russia had as far as I can tell- everyone had care, but it wasn't always that great. But at least it was better than nothing, so you can go back and forth on that I guess. Now that I have a full time job with benefits and get better care than others, I'm not so sure I would want socialized medecine. You can call that greedy, but you can also call it taking care of your own. It is one of the perks of getting your lazy butt up in the morning and doing boring crap all day and getting tired instead of sitting on your ass in San Francisco drinking 40s all day long. (Ok, that last comment was specifically aimed towards my sister's lame bumb boyfriend...sorry.)

DMC



"Jack you are a scientist! Do you not think there are things in this universe which you do not understand and yet which are true?" -Abraham VanHelsing
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Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
I'v always wondered about the healthcare in Canada. From what I understand, Canadians pay more taxes than Americans do, but their healtcare is better/everyone gets healthcare or something like that. Which is it? Or is it both/neither? That's not a hidden dis at Canada, by the way, I honestly dont know how it works up there.



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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#15 Posted on
If you ask Liberals, Canada's Health system is the best thing the world ever invented. If you ask Conservatives, it's little better than Botswana's. It's probably just what you happen to be used to.

I get my lazy butt up every day and work two jobs, and still have to pay $80+/month for short-term emergency health care. That just means I'm not in debt for the rest of my life if I get hit by a car. I still can't go get a check-up without being out $100+ dollars. And going to the dentist? hah!

Also (as Gavintzu pointed out) saying "solialism is wrong because Russia did bad stuff" is the exact same as saying "Capitalism is wrong because the Nazi's did bad stuff" (Uh, oh! Does that rule about invoking Nazi's = thread killing apply here? Can I get a reprieve?). Nazi Germany employed a somewhat warped version of a capitalist economic system. Russia employed a somewhat warped version of a socialist economic system. Most countries (including the U.S.) employ a system somewhere between the two. There's a lot of arguements over where on that line is the best place to be. Probably each country has a different answer.

Moe



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DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#16 Posted on
Moe, two problems with what you said. First, I wouldn't necessairly call the Nazis capitalists. They were racial idealists being lead by a dictator. Capitalism was just a tool used to boost their military to achieve Hitler's goals, and I don't think it was very free and was probably heavily controlled by the Nazi government. Doesn't seem much like capitalism if you ask me. Second, the idea that Russian leaders from Lenin to Stalin were exercising a "warped idea of Marxism/communism" is debatable, for Marx called for the very things which they upheld- violent revolution, absolute control to force the evil capitalists to give in, etc. To me, Lenin and Stalin were simply carrying out what the revolution called for, or at least what it did not claim was necessairly wrong to do in order to achieve a socialist state. (After all, if religion is just opium of the masses and atheism is the new state religion, then, as Dostoyevski said, all is permissible. And if your goal is to have this perfect socialist state, then a whole bunch of evil is perfectly fine in order to bring it about.)

But obviously, this is a running debate.

DMC



"Jack you are a scientist! Do you not think there are things in this universe which you do not understand and yet which are true?" -Abraham VanHelsing
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09
But Marx called for that absolute control to be given back, evenly, to the people after it had been gained collectively.

Also, capitalism is not synonomis with free market. They often go hand in hand, but they don't have to. Capitalism is characterized by private and/or corporate ownership. The government can still have a heacy influence. In America today, our government doesn't hold as much control as that of Nazi Germany, but even our federal, state and local governments have several checks and controls on our economy. It just happened the Nazis used similar controls more liberally to gain the power they needed/desired.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3477 days
Last activity: 3471 days
#18 Posted on
Excellent point...my only point was that Marxist communism in a variety of ways was much more directly linked to socialism than the Nazis were to capitalism. Communists are fundamentally attempting to bring about a socialist state, they flow directly out of socialism. Not all socialists have been communists, but a whole bunch have been, and they have been the prime examples of absolute socialist states in modern history, as far as I can tell. Hitler did not flow out of capitalist philosophy in the same way. The Nazis were first and foremost concerned with nationality and race, not with economics. The only reason why Hitler would never have wanted to experiment with socialism and a major reason why he hated Russia so much is because Marx was a Jew. Thus, calling capitalists "Nazis" just seems to be old and incorrect hippie rhetoric.

Also, Marx may have called for power to be given back to the people, but he sure seems to have left it hazy about how that was to be done. Again, the reason why Marxism has failed so badly and why socialism is false is because it does not accurately represent human reality at all. Not that greed is a good thing, only that there are better ways of handling it then burning down rich people's homes (or anyone else who disagrees with you and has a slight amount of money) and putting them in gulags.

DMC



"Jack you are a scientist! Do you not think there are things in this universe which you do not understand and yet which are true?" -Abraham VanHelsing
Gavintzu
Summer sausage








Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

Since last post: 2868 days
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Okay, I'm gonna try again.

Communism -- the government controls the economy and all the workers in it. This has been completely discredited and any remaining Communists post-1965 should have their heads examined.

Socialism -- the economy is primarily Capitalist except for some key areas. The government heavily regulates some industries and redistributes wealth through taxes and univeral services. Canada, Europe and Asia all have capitalist economies (yes, even China), but they ALL have areas which would be called Socialist by Americans. The choice isn't between capitalism and socialism, but how much government interference is best in the capitalist economy.

Capitalists say that government should get out of the way of private industry and ONLY worry about police work, national security and the like. However, there are several areas where Adam Smith's invisible hand just DOESN'T work:

--the environment. Some people say that the market, and consumers, will force companies to be environmentally friendly. These people are wrong. Experience in every western country in the past 40 years shows that governments have to force companies not to poison the environment. There need to be strong laws and strong enforcement, or else companies with the moral fortitude of Enron will do anything to make a bigger profit. Including pouring raw sewage into drinking water.

-- health care. Experience in the U.S. shows that for-profit insurance companies and for-profit hospitals are a horrible way to run a society's health care system. The U.S. actually spends more money per capita on health care than Canada and Europe, because the for-profit system hammers the consumer in so many ways.

If anyone wants to respond to this, please don't throw Marx or Stalin at me. It is irrelevant. I like capitalism and I like entrepeneurs and I love having 12 different kinds of toilet paper to choose from when I go shopping. But there are areas where a strong (and ineffecient and lumbering and wasteful) government can make a HUGE difference in the quality of the citizens' lives. Not the consumers' lives, but the citizens' lives.

P.S. If anyone argues that everything is fundamentally sound in the American economy, I say:
Enron, Enron, Enron, Enron, 20000 thrown out of work with no severance pay or pension funds, Enron Enron, Enron, Enron.






Past hills of chambermaids' dark bare arms and fields of muscles quilted to the bone,
Right now I'm flying over, yeah right now I'm flying home.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3477 days
Last activity: 3471 days
#20 Posted on
"If anyone wants to respond to this, please don't throw Marx or Stalin at me. It is irrelevant. I like capitalism and I like entrepeneurs and I love having 12 different kinds of toilet paper to choose from when I go shopping. But there are areas where a strong (and ineffecient and lumbering and wasteful) government can make a HUGE difference in the quality of the citizens' lives. Not the consumers' lives, but the citizens' lives."

At this point I wouldn't throw Stalin at you, I would just wonder as I said before about the *quality* of health care you would get with socialized medecine. I'm wondering if we could possibly have some kind of partial socialized medecine- where you are guaranteed health care if you cannot afford it, but if you wish to opt out and stay with your regular insurance and doctor you can. I guess we already have something like this, except that its called the emergency room.

DMC



"Jack you are a scientist! Do you not think there are things in this universe which you do not understand and yet which are true?" -Abraham VanHelsing
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Roy, I think you hit the nail on the head. The "toxic culture" causes this, which is caused by a number of factors (which have been cited on many levels) The kids just flipped out and lost it.
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