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25.10.14 0800
The W - Current Events & Politics - SO, there's this immigration law in Arizona now (Page 3)
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Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
The potential for this to negatively affect the Arizona economy continues. According to Fangraphs, there have been calls for:
* the Seattle Mariners to move their spring training camp out of the state of Arizona
* for people to boycott Arizona Diamondbacks games
* to move the 2011 MLB All Star Game out of Arizona.
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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Y!:
#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.09
My Passport is the in bag I carry my PC in, so it is generally in my possession, except perhaps when I am walking around during the day. I also have my DD form 214, discharge from the US Military which establishes my citizenship, in my wallet.

I suspect though, that Guru raises a valid concern. Let's say I am a hispanic person, born in the US, and make an illegal turn in Phoenix. The cop pulls me over, and since my wife and kids are in the car with me and are chatting away in spanish he decides there is reasonable suspicion that I might be illegal. I am just going to have my driver's license and credit cards, maybe, just maybe, my SSN card. None of that proves much.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
(deleted by StaggerLee on 1.5.10 1540)
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.09


From Horsesass.org, McCartney and Lupica, respectively, none of which are exactly bastions of centrist thought.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 20 days
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.71
    Originally posted by Reverend J Shaft
    I'd really like to know from those who oppose this law how exactly we would identify those who are here illegally? Really, I can understand believing this law might be unfair to those of Hispanic origin. I'm just trying to understand how we would possibly findout who is illegal short of illegal immigrants walking up to an INS agent and saying "I'm here illegally"

The problem (as far as I'm concerned, anyway) is that it is none of Arizona's business to take this matter into their own hands. If Congress decides that state and/or local law enforcement officials can be of use in the fight against illegal immigration and that the best way to use such law enforcement officials is by granting them the right to do something like what the Arizona law says, then you have at least gotten rid of the preemption issue. Further, Congress can decide to use state and local officials in some completely different and novel way to identify illegal immigrants, perhaps even employing techniques and mechanisms that aren't so obviously dependent on racial profiling.

There are so many reasons why state legislators just cannot do what the Arizona legislature did in this case. Preemption, state protectionism, impairment of interstate commerce, hell even the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment is implicated here. If a law is unconstitutional, it's unconstitutional regardless of how helpful one might perceive it to be.

Fix the problems with the law's constitutionality and try again. If you can't fix it because it's none of your business to make that law, ask Congress to make it your business or let Congress do it their own damn selves. If Congress doesn't want to do either, fire the bastards and find people who will.

- StingArmy
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 20 days
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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.71
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Originally posted by Guru Zim
      How about for natural born Citizens? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Why can't anyone on the other side of the argument concede that we are more than likely going to be inconveniencing minorities based on the color of their skin?

      (edited by Guru Zim on 29.4.10 1739)

    Does the constitution say anywhere that you have a right to not be inconvenienced?

    I think having to stop at a DUI checkpoint is inconvenient. Having to prove I am not drunk is an inconvenience. Having to wait while they check the computer to see if o have any warrants is inconvenient.
    But checking to see if somebody without ID is in ICE's computer is too much to ask, to apprehend somebody who has broken the law?



As a matter of fact, yes, the Constitution DOES say that you have a right not to be inconvenienced if that inconvenience is based on some impermissible factor such as race, national origin, alienage, etc. Perhaps you've heard the terms "disparate impact" and "disparate treatment" before?

Your DUI checkpoint example is actually a very poor choice for an analogy as there are several long-standing bases for allowing local law enforcement officials to use such methods to protect the health and safety of the public. Now, if police were only stopping white people at their checkpoint, or if the checkpoint was for something else like searching car trunks for drugs (or checking people's IDs to prove their citizenship status), then you have a constitutional violation.

Unlike most of the other people in this thread, on either side of the issue, you are making a series of incredibly poor arguments. Before this DUI checkpoint argument there was your semantics game of "the law doesn't require anybody to prove anything." False. If you are stopped by a cop in Arizona, it is YOU that has to furnish proof that you are here legally. If it was the federal government providing that information, then no one would have to worry about carrying birth certificates or passports or what have you. How much more obvious can that possibly be?

Hey, maybe some State should pass a law allowing street cops "the opportunity" (as you might call it) to take DNA samples from people they arrest for being frisky in public to ensure one of those people isn't putting the other person at risk of contracting a disease like HIV. Knowingly infecting another person with such a disease without first telling that person of the risk is sexual battery, you know. A crime! Oh but don't worry, those cops aren't requiring ANYBODY to prove their sexual contact is legal. That law only gives the authorities the opportunity to get the information from a government approved testing facility. Yeah, okay.

- StingArmy
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
    Originally posted by AWArulz


    From Horsesass.org, McCartney and Lupica, respectively, none of which are exactly bastions of centrist thought.

Liberals spend tourism money too.

Let me add that I'm not saying they should abolish the law based on economic concerns. To me it's just an interesting side effect.

(edited by Mr. Boffo on 30.4.10 0852)
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
The problem (as far as I'm concerned, anyway) is that it is none of Arizona's business to take this matter into their own hands. If Congress decides that state and/or local law enforcement officials can be of use in the fight against illegal immigration and that the best way to use such law enforcement officials is by granting them the right to do something like what the Arizona law says, then you have at least gotten rid of the preemption issue.

Further, Congress can decide to use state and local officials in some completely different and novel way to identify illegal immigrants, perhaps even employing techniques and mechanisms that aren't so obviously dependent on racial profiling


Of course it is "Arizona's business" - that’s the crux of what’s happening here. In this case, it’s “immigration”. Coming soon will be “health care”. It’s boiling down to state rights – and the states being sick of the inability of the federal government to enforce what is law. Or, making a law that will cause the states to get left holding the bag

If nothing else, Congress, especially for about the the last 10 years, has been inept and / or blatantly fraudulent in the attempt to shove Washington’s agenda down America’s throat. The Civil War was not just about slavery, it was about the rights of a state to dictate matters that affect the state. We’ll see more of this, I’m sure

FLEA

edit:

Sorry, but no, it is NOT Arizona's business. Perhaps you misunderstood my post and/or didn't see my earlier post regarding preemption. Immigration legislation is a matter of federal law, plain and simple.

- StingArmy .


Oh, I read it just fine. Read the rest of MINE! (the fight for the rights of the state vs. Fed Law). Grazi

FLEA

(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 30.4.10 1145)

Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

"Learn to love yourself... for it is the greatest love of all" - Jeremy Borash 11:24 AM May 13th,2009
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.50
The South was wrong then too. The States thought they were little empires and treated their citizens as such. Then they tried shove that idea down the rest of the country's throats only to see Lincoln get elected. I agree the states are going to do more of this due to Obama being President, they would never dare do this under a GOP regime. Its less of an immigration issue, but another GOP hissy fit.

The problem with illegal immigration is that the genie is out of the bottle. All they are doing is moving chairs on the Titanic. Most illegals are moving back due to the recession anyway. Its another GOP/Tea Party gamble that is going to blow up in their face like it always when they overreach. There are too many ineligibles that makes the entire law illegal. It also leads to a slippery slope of terrible laws that have nothing to do will immigration.
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 20 days
Last activity: 20 days
#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.88
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    Of course it is "Arizona's business" - that’s the crux of what’s happening here. In this case, it’s “immigration”.

Sorry, but no, it is NOT Arizona's business. Perhaps you misunderstood my post and/or didn't see my earlier post regarding preemption. Immigration legislation is a matter of federal law, plain and simple.

- StingArmy
Von Maestro
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.1.04
From: New York

Since last post: 226 days
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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.78
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
      Originally posted by Von Maestro
        Originally posted by Guru Zim
        If you think your Driver's license is enough - you are wrong.


      Guru-

      Serious question. Can you get an Arizona driver's license if you are not a US Citizen or someone in the country legally?


    I should have quoted this reply. Yes, there are 11 states apparently that will issue an IA a driver's license. There are also many more that will issue a Temporary License to non-citizens for many reasons, including a pending amnesty request, and other pending actions. Pending just means that you filed, not that it was approved. I could file an amnesty request - no chance it gets approved but I could get a 1 year DL with it. Due to loopholes like this that are present in the Real ID law, it will not be likely that a DL would be accepted as proof of citizenship.


Guru-

First of all, my question was not stated in a "troll" manner. Living in NY, I am genuinely unsure of Arizona's requirements for attaining a driver's license. I know that in NY I had to show either a birth certificate or passport to apply for my license & I did not know if the requirements in AZ are the same. In all the years I have frequented this board, I have never taken part in "troll"-like actions and to be dismissed as doing so for asking a question is a little odd.

If these are in fact documents you need to get a license, I imagine that if someone were pulled over by an AZ cop & asked for his license and registration, that would be enough to satisfy the cops questions regarding immigration status (if any existed).

Now I recognize that while in a perfect world this would be enough & no one would be inconvenienced, we do not live in a perfect world & there are obvious problems with this "solution" (both logistically & politically). However, I can't blame the AZ legislators for trying to do SOMETHING.

I am always hearing about how the Republican party is the party of no, yet all I am hearing is those opposed to this law and crying out with the nebulous need for "Immigration Reform" yet there are no true ideas put out there to help AZ (and other border states) with the obvious problems they are facing with regards to securing the border.

The fact is that the Federal government is tasked with securing the AZ border & yet they are obviously failing in doing so. It is unfair & unrealistic to expect AZ to sit by & do nothing to protect their citizens (both in any criminal capacity the illegals may take part in, and in the drain on taxpayer resources the illegals take advantage of).
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.48

    there are no true ideas put out there to help AZ (and other border states) with the obvious problems they are facing with regards to securing the border


Have you paid any attention at all to the nonstop immigration debate in this country for the past several years? Loads of solutions have been offered that don't involve a racist witch hunt.

Rather than chasing the ones that are here already out with pitchforks, make it easier for them to be granted residency status and allow them to assimilate, seeing as how they are such an integral part of the economy in the border areas. Then, take whatever measures are deemed necessary to prevent new immigrants from entering illegally (which is a whole separate debate). This is a solution that has been offered. But I guess to you this is significantly less valid than the idea of stopping all the Hispanics and arresting them if they don't have papers stating themselves to be either citizens or legal residents?



Von Maestro
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.1.04
From: New York

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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.78
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Have you paid any attention at all to the nonstop immigration debate in this country for the past several years? Loads of solutions have been offered that don't involve a racist witch hunt.


If you think what I want is a "racist witch hunt" then maybe you have been the one who's not paying attention.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Rather than chasing the ones that are here already out with pitchforks, make it easier for them to be granted residency status and allow them to assimilate, seeing as how they are such an integral part of the economy in the border areas. Then, take whatever measures are deemed necessary to prevent new immigrants from entering illegally (which is a whole separate debate). This is a solution that has been offered.


I don't see how rewarding a massive group of people for breaking the law is a "solution". This would also be a tremendous message to send to the future people you place in a "whole separate debate"; break the law for long enough & we will eventually give in & allow you to bypass the immigration process. I don't see this as a solution.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    But I guess to you this is significantly less valid than the idea of stopping all the Hispanics and arresting them if they don't have papers stating themselves to be either citizens or legal residents?


As I've said before, I do not think this is by any means a perfect solution, BUT I think it's a bit alarmist & insulting to the majority of law enforcement in AZ to presume that they will simply start harassing every Hispanic person they see.

I know this is the knee-jerk way to get people to be afraid of this legislation, but the reality is it is no less constitutional than a police officer pulling you over to check if you are wearing a seat-belt (if anything the seat-belt law is more unconstitutional as the officer is inspecting your car without cause). The difference is that the seat-belt laws made people "feel good" as the police were simply protecting us from ourselves, but now that there is an issue of race involved, there is a much more impassioned response.
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.34
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    But checking to see if somebody without ID is in ICE's computer is too much to ask, to apprehend somebody who has broken the law?



Are you just going to "ask the questions" without stating your opinion? This is called "concern trolling" and it is not allowed here.

If you truly believe that all minorities should have to put up with this so that we can solve the "illegal immigrant problem" then say so. I'll tell you why you are wrong. Make an argument and defend it, don't just try to put your opposition on the defensive with questions.

The other side of concern trolling is the straw man argument. If you continue to not make your case with facts and arguments, I'm going to lay out what I see as your motivation. This will become a fair argument due to your lack of participation.




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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.34
Von, you are not the concern troll I am speaking of. Stagger is the person who I am targetting with those comments, my apologies if that is not clear.




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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
(deleted by StaggerLee on 1.5.10 1540)
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
This reminds me in a way of the time right after Pearl Harbor. We rounded up Japanese-Americans and put them in camps. I don't believe we did that with German Americans.

While I find it offensive that illegals get a pass and ultimatley get to be here legally and offensive that we can't seem to regulate our borders and offensive that we get little help from the foreign governments involved, I am not ready to piss on the Constitution and the rights of Hispanic-Americans here legally or who are citizens that have family traced to the U.S before many of my ancestors. Please don't tell me that isn't wha will happen. It will. I imagine most law enforcement will do there best but it will happen.

And I don't think this law would have been enacted if it was a mass wave of illegal Canadiens involved.

This problem needs solved but the issues are way too complex for a simple solution.



Perception is reality
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.34
You want a dog license? Just wait here one moment while I call INS. Oh the wait time is 45 minutes, please hold.

You want to build a deck? Just give me a moment to confirm you are a citizen. Oh, one hour wait. Well, have a seat.

Want a campsite? No problem sir, let's just run you through the INS computers. Sorry, that system is overwhelmed. Can you please step aside while I help this white family?

And so on, and so on.

Let's look at policy now. One of these policies makes you liable personally for a $1000 fine, and one doesn't.

Policy A: "If a guy looks Hispanic, run him through the INS computer no matter what."

Policy B: "Do not waste our department's time running every Hispanic through the computer, only do it if the guy says he is from Mexico or is an immigrant."

Doesn't it bother you a little that there is a penalty for the second approach, and the irrational first approach is fully acceptable? In my reading of this bill, I can't find anywhere that says that Policy A is bad. In fact, there seem to be provisions to keep you from writing Policy B, and penalties spelled out if you do. Policy A would have to be illegal due to one of the clauses "except where prohibited by existing law" or some such.

The problem is that "Reasonable Suspicion" is not defined. You could argue that Policy A is an attempt to define it. In reading your posts, Stagger, tt seems to me that you feel that being Hispanic is reasonable suspicion to suspect someone of being an IA. I'm worried about people with that opinion being in power and harassing Hispanics.

If you've ever called the DMV, you know how the government deals with large volumes of inquiries. Placing an inquiry before any government service can be delivered to a Hispanic would be a horrible burden for them. I'm not willing to make anyone go through that to solve this problem.




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Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
    Originally posted by Von Maestro

    First of all, my question was not stated in a "troll" manner. Living in NY, I am genuinely unsure of Arizona's requirements for attaining a driver's license. I know that in NY I had to show either a birth certificate or passport to apply for my license & I did not know if the requirements in AZ are the same. In all the years I have frequented this board, I have never taken part in "troll"-like actions and to be dismissed as doing so for asking a question is a little odd.


You guys are misunderstanding each other, and one or both of you are assuming hostility where I didn't see any.

To clarify: A driver's license proves identity (i.e. it has a picture and a name), but not citizenship.

To prove both identity and citizenship you need
    Originally posted by list 1

    U.S. Passport
    Certificate of Naturalization
    Certificate of U.S. Citizenship



otherwise you need one thing that proves identity and another that proves citizenship.

things that prove citizenship are
    Originally posted by list 2

    U.S. birth certificate
    A Certification of birth issued by the Department of State
    A Report of Birth Abroad of a U.S. Citizen
    A Certification of Birth Abroad
    A U.S. Citizen I.D. card
    An American Indian Card issued by the Department of Homeland Security with the classification code - KIC
    Final adoption decree showing the child's name and U.S. birthplace
    Evidence of civil service employment by the U.S. government before June 1976
    An official military record of service showing a U.S. place of birth
    A Northern Mariana Identification Card



things that prove identity are
    Originally posted by list 3

    Driver's license or state identity card
    Certificate of Indian Blood, or other U.S. American Indian/Alaska Native tribal document
    School identification card with a photograph of the individual
    U.S. military card or draft record
    Identification card issued by the federal, state, or local government with the same information included on driver's licenses
    Military dependent's identification card
    U.S. Coast Guard Merchant Mariner card
    For children under 16, an affidavit signed by a parent or guardian


In summary, all residents of Arizona now have to carry either a passport (if they have one), or a driver's license / state id card AND birth certificate with them at all times in case they get questioned.

I don't have a copy of my birth certificate anywhere. I'm glad I don't live in Arizona. I'm sure they're checking for illegal European and Asian immigrants just as much as they are illegal Mexican and South American immigrants. :-P
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
(deleted by StaggerLee on 1.5.10 1541)
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