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28.4.17 0123
The W - Current Events & Politics - So, there's a border crisis
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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
Whether you are "send them back" or "Let them in" in your mindset, there are a ton of children coming through to the USA.

While I have my own ideas of what's going on, and what's being done with the kids/adults who are showing up, I still see this as a humanitarian crisis as well.

What can/should we do?



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lotjx
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.31
What can be done: Nothing. We have an Legislative branch that doesn't want to legislate. Then sues the President of the United States when he makes the most tiny of Executive Decisions. There are thousands of people coming through the border each day now. Even if you deploy the National Guard, they are not going to be able to stop them. Why? Because Mexico doesn't give a shit and when you have a border with a country that doesn't give a shit especially one as long as ours, you are fucked.

What Should be done: Amnesty. And that word might as well mean baby killer for certain people in the GOP. Ironically, sending them back is a death sentence. There is no way they can legally get into the country when most of their country is on fire or underwater in some cases. There is a reason these people are fleeing to America and yeah, its the Bush law, but its has to do with they have no where else to go.

I know no one wants them in their backyard. That is why you see these stage protest some things to the police departments. Yet, if you do believe in what America stands for in taking in the poor and weak or at least your religious beliefs then you should for letting them in. The Pope, by the way, says take them in.

(edited by lotjx on 19.7.14 1144)

(edited by lotjx on 19.7.14 1145)

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
Okay, with that in mind, Lets say a Miracle happens and the House and Senate agree to an immigration reform bill and Obama signs it. Then what?

Does that improve the conditions for these people walking thousands of miles to get to our border?



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lotjx
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.31
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Okay, with that in mind, Lets say a Miracle happens and the House and Senate agree to an immigration reform bill and Obama signs it. Then what?

    Does that improve the conditions for these people walking thousands of miles to get to our border?


The reform would help those who are already here more so than the people at the border. Yet, if you read the Dream Act, the amount of hoops you have to go through is pretty damn crazy. It could at least give them some hope. It may lead to a few people getting citizenship.

Technically, these people are refugees and we are going to change the laws, so we don't consider them so. Its even crazy that we have law makers saying its a crisis, but $3.7 Billion is too much. That is not even close to wait we spend on aid to other countries.

The other massive problems is the countries they are coming from are fucked. Between natural disasters, drug lords and corrupt politicians, these people are stuck. We are not going to invade Central America, so we might as well for once actually live up to the principals this country is supposed to be founded on. Give aid to the helpless.



(edited by lotjx on 19.7.14 1727)


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AWArulz
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.52
I am for taking care of people. But is it our responsibility as a country to feed and house and cloth everyone who shows up at the door?

do you give food and money and clothes to every homeless person you meet, even if they don't ask you?

and what about the people are are legally trying to immigrate here, like, say, my friend Shahid? He's been here on a work Visa for 3 years or so and has been going through a million hoops to get his green card. But these guys get one just for forcing their way in.

It's a hard issue. A friend I have in Oklahoma said the immigration service basically dropped 100 kids in town for them to take care of and left. The town is left to deal with them.

I have a very difficult time when I want to work in Mexico. But they allow this to happen. Oh, we could do things to stop it. But we're more worried about who stays in power.



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drjayphd
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.37
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    I am for taking care of people. But is it our responsibility as a country to feed and house and cloth everyone who shows up at the door?


I have a hard time believing anyone could say the answer is no when we have a sonnet mounted inside of the freaking Statue of Liberty that "starts" (doesn't actually start with this, but this is the part people remember) with "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."

Okay, I can believe people could physically say that, but I'd hate to see the moral contortions they'd have to make to hold that stance. I get that it's about the process, but I don't believe we live in a country that's above aiding refugees.

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    and what about the people are are legally trying to immigrate here, like, say, my friend Shahid? He's been here on a work Visa for 3 years or so and has been going through a million hoops to get his green card. But these guys get one just for forcing their way in.


Such is the problem with our immigration system, which is overextended and overcomplicated. Partisan posturing is what's in the way of any improvement.

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    It's a hard issue. A friend I have in Oklahoma said the immigration service basically dropped 100 kids in town for them to take care of and left. The town is left to deal with them.

    I have a very difficult time when I want to work in Mexico. But they allow this to happen. Oh, we could do things to stop it. But we're more worried about who stays in power.


I wonder if that's why Gov. Malloy wouldn't take kids in to the Southbury Training School. It's not exactly a good look for someone running for reelection, but I haven't seen anything about the logistics of such an arrangement.

(edited by drjayphd on 21.7.14 1337)


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AWArulz
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.52
    Originally posted by drjayphd
      Originally posted by AWArulz
      I am for taking care of people. But is it our responsibility as a country to feed and house and cloth everyone who shows up at the door?


    I have a hard time believing anyone could say the answer is no when we have a sonnet mounted inside of the freaking Statue of Liberty that "starts" (doesn't actually start with this, but this is the part people remember) with "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."


we started to quota immigration in the 1800s. It's not new. Everything from race, to literacy to mental stability have been barriers to immigration over the years.

The question is: shall we have open borders? Let anyone any time in? That's what the people crossing our borders in the south want and a relatively small part of our electorate. 74% of our citizens would keep the immigration as it is or decrease it. I recommend this relatively open minded website. http://openborders.info/polling-data-on-migration/

I wonder what that number is in southern states like California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas?

I find it interesting and fascinating that this 1983 poem MUST be kept today without change, but marriage, which goes back a few more years than that, can be changed anytime. Just my conservative bias.

I am in favor of a significantly increased legal immigration policy. Significant. Double it at least, maybe more. I am not in favor of open borders.





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Leroy
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.47
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    I find it interesting and fascinating that this 1983 poem MUST be kept today without change...


I'll trade you the 1903 (not 1983) poem addition for the 1954 induction of 'God' into the Pledge of Allegiance. Sound fair?

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    ...but marriage, which goes back a few more years than that, can be changed anytime.


Or what really happens - marriage slowly and constantly evolves over time in order to remain relevant - because, for some reason, people really like getting married and are willing to fight for that right.

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    The question is: shall we have open borders? Let anyone any time in? That's what the people crossing our borders in the south want and a relatively small part of our electorate. 74% of our citizens would keep the immigration as it is or decrease it.


Personally, I'm not terribly interested in what '74% of our citizens' want (I'm not sure about that stat, either - as Pew paints a different picture (people-press.org) ) - I'm interested realistic solutions to these issues. And I'm fairly certain that people who cross illegally would much rather earn a real living in their home country without living in fear of violence or death.

    Originally posted by AWARulz
    I am in favor of a significantly increased legal immigration policy. Significant. Double it at least, maybe more. I am not in favor of open borders.


Well we agree on something, at least. I'm not really in favor of open borders either - but it does seem just a tad hypocritical that I can pretty much drive into Mexico without even stopping (or at least I did in 2005), and yet the return trip can take 2.5 hours and a minor interrogation from the border patrol of my own country.

But really, this isn't about immigration, it's about dealing with 50,000 kids who have fled poverty and violence, and have, for whatever reason, ended up on our doorstep. If these kids had ended up in the same circumstances from another country, I do not think we'd be complicating this conversation with the larger issue of immigration - we'd be discussing them as refugees and would probably find ourselves a bit more sympathetic to their plight.
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.60
I would say that marriage has changed tremendously over the centuries as has our view of sexuality but this post is regarding open borders.

While I don't believe in totally open borders, I don't even think that is the problem here. These are children who are fleeing poverty, violence and even death where they come from. And even if we don't want to admit it, our country bears responsibility for the conditions they were living under. We have a responsibility as human beings to do something.



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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.14


    Originally posted by DrDirt
    I would say that marriage has changed tremendously over the centuries as has our view of sexuality but this post is regarding open borders.

    While I don't believe in totally open borders, I don't even think that is the problem here. These are children who are fleeing poverty, violence and even death where they come from. And even if we don't want to admit it, our country bears responsibility for the conditions they were living under. We have a responsibility as human beings to do something.


I think I am in this camp of thinking here. We have so many great things in this country and these children are coming here with nothing. It is everyone's responsibility in my opinion.



Dionysus
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Since: 10.7.11
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.50
I think the best thing for us to do is to immediately send the illegal immigrants back to their countries, and to levy a fine on the governments of those countries to cover the expenses of doing those expulsions and enforcements. Those countries have been externalizing the costs of their social problems onto us, and they will continue doing so as long as we continue to let them get away with it.

Defensively, we should untie the hands of the border state governments, to let them more freely come up with mechanisms for defending the border.
TheBucsFan
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
What should states be doing that isn't racist, but that they are currently prevented from doing by whomever or whatever has their hands tied?

If the Mexican military invades New Mexico, should that also be the state's responsibility to defend, independent of the federal government?
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
Because something happens TO a minority, does not mean it happened BECAUSE they are a minority. The "racist" argument is weak. If these were Scandinavian children crossing our border, the crisis would still be the same.

How does the law differ for refugees vs your garden variety border jumper? (Seriously asking, I am not clear on it)




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Leroy
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.43
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Because something happens TO a minority, does not mean it happened BECAUSE they are a minority. The "racist" argument is weak. If these were Scandinavian children crossing our border, the crisis would still be the same.


I'm fairly certain that if 50,000 well educated (by our standards), healthy, mostly attractive, fairly English-literate northern Europeans ended up on our borders due to some violent destabilization of Scandinavia (really?), we wouldn't be talking about militarizing the border.

    Originally posted by Dionysus
    ...and to levy a fine on the governments of those countries to cover the expenses of doing those expulsions and enforcements.


I'm a bit curious (I expect to regret this)... so what authority do you think our government has to levy fines against another country with the expectation that those fines will be paid to us in any form other than a middle finger?

I think there's a mistaken presumption that these countries suffering from these 'social problems' care about their poor people more than we do (even though, by all indications, we really don't care all that much).
StaggerLee
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
    Originally posted by Leroy


    I'm fairly certain that if 50,000 well educated (by our standards), healthy, mostly attractive, fairly English-literate northern Europeans ended up on our borders due to some violent destabilization of Scandinavia (really?), we wouldn't be talking about militarizing the border.




You missed the point. The point is, even if this was Caucasian kids being trucked to our border, it doesn't change the fact that it's an issue and it is an important one.

Is the way that we are handling this issue correct? Is sending thousands of kids to 'shelters' set up in desolate parts of the country and leaving the local governments to pay for them the right thing?

Is sending children to foster homes with little to no screening of who is taking them in a good thing?

Is taking kids who undoubtedly will have PTSD and just housing them with little to no social services or counseling a good idea?





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Dionysus
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.50
    Originally posted by Leroy

    I'm a bit curious (I expect to regret this)... so what authority do you think our government has to levy fines against another country with the expectation that those fines will be paid to us in any form other than a middle finger?


At the international level rules/authority are basically just an artifact of which side has the stronger military. In addition the United States is in a strong negotiating position due to the large amount of capital in America. Thus, if our leaders were willing to put pressure on these countries, then I think that it is highly plausible that we could get them to repay us for what it is costing us to deal with shipping their people back home. By putting the fiscal costs of immigration on the source countries, that will also act as an incentive to them to solve the problem on their end.
dMp
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.75
    Originally posted by Dionysus
      Originally posted by Leroy

      By putting the fiscal costs of immigration on the source countries, that will also act as an incentive to them to solve the problem on their end.


    But people still wish to escape their current situation (be it for political or economical reasons) Wouldn't your idea just force people to do it 100% illegally, meaning cross the borders at night, in overcrowded vehicles etc etc?
    Basically, make it even more inhumane?

TheBucsFan
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Because something happens TO a minority, does not mean it happened BECAUSE they are a minority.



If a police officer stops someone based exclusively on their physical appearance because they "might" be illegal immigrants, in what way is that not "BECAUSE they are a minority," exactly? Or are you going to pretend that white people would be stopped at the same rate that non-whites would?

And I can infer then that this is what you think states should be doing that they currently can't? Random stops on the street to search any Hispanic person they feel like (or anything else that leaves the act up to the officer's discretion)? If that's it, then "the states' hands are tied!" is pretty weak as an argument.

According to some numbers I found online, it seems like there are about 1.7 million Hispanics in Arizona according to census data, and an estimated 400,000 illegal immigrants (source). This means that if cops stop a random Hispanic-looking person (and of course that term in and of itself is hard to define and racist) then there's approximately an 80 percent chance that person has been embarrassed publicly and illegally because of their race. In Texas, the likelihood is even higher.

So I repeat, what should states be doing that isn't racist, but that they're not being allowed to do?

(edited by TheBucsFan on 24.7.14 1249)
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
Ok, the purpose of this thread was to talk about what is currently happening at our southern border.

Not about what goes on in random stops, not about what might be happening elsewhere.

The people that are showing up arent somehow just being snatched up off the streets. Therefore us housing them and trying to determine what to do with them isn't racist.



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TheBucsFan
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    The people that are showing up arent somehow just being snatched up off the streets. Therefore us housing them and trying to determine what to do with them isn't racist.


I agree with that. I was responding to the expressed sentiment (not by you) that somehow the federal government is stopping the states from dealing with this in an effective manner.
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I think that says something about Gray Davis...
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