The W
Views: 97862519
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Calendar | Color chart | Log in for more!
31.7.14 2305
The W - Print - So, let's talk about the folks in Arkham...
This thread has 12 referrals leading to it
Register and log in to post!
Thread rated: 4.39
Pages: 1 2 Next
(114 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (24 total)
John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 33 days
Last activity: 33 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
Yesterday, Batman writer Scott Snyder was bored at his kid's friend's birthday party and tweeted out asking opinions on Bat villains who need to be modernized. He had gotten into a discussion with a friend about Riddler, who probably is the top of the list for needing a total revamp.*

People who read these DC threads read or have read Batman comics so I'm sure there are opinions on the Bat villains and who could use a 're-imagining'. I'm interested in hearing them, and I don't just mean "give Harley Quinn back her old, non-slutty costume".

I immediately Tweeted Scott Snyder with my top wish: Penguin. I think Penguin could be so much more than he is; he's almost always relegated as a minor villain character, stuck in his Iceberg Casino in the middle of Gotham Harbor. Tim Burton is the only one who ever looked at Penguin and dared to come up with a new angle on him. The comics never budged on Penguin otherwise and he is being totally wasted. Plus, as I reminded Snyder in a Tweet, he already laid the groundwork in Gates of Gotham that the Cobblepot family is as important to early Gotham's creation, akin to the Waynes. Oswald, as he was in Batman Returns, could be a dark mirror for Bruce Wayne, and he most definitely could be totally reimagined into a legitimate threat. This probably won't happen any time soon however, especially since DC just put out a pretty good Penguin miniseries called Pain and Prejudice. But I still think Penguin could use a conceptual overhaul. No one really takes Penguin seriously.

The other name that popped into my head that could use a total revamp is Ra's Al Ghul, though he's not a Snyder favorite. But I think Ra's is a totally played out idea. He is a 1970s Denny O'Neill idea of a global eco terrorist and he has pretty much stayed the same for the last 30 years. Ra's could use a total revamp, modernized into a reflection of what a global despot could be today. For instance, instead of magic Lazarus pits and magic ninjas, Ra's could be someone who utilizes technology to the Nth degree. Like a evil combination of Steve Jobs, Julian Assange, mixed with the aspects of Ra's that should remain, in terms of his physical prowess. Another idea I have: Resurrect Ra's one last time, do away with Lazarus Pits for good, but make Ra's younger. Younger than Talia. As if he is Ibn Al Xuffach, the midpoint between Bruce and Damian Wayne, but with all of the memories, skills and resources of R'as. I think there's way more mileage that could come from Ra's Al Ghul if the concept were re-imagined.

End my fantasy Bat booking. Who and what are yours?

* Note that the top vote getters for Bat villains who need a revamp among Scott Snyder's Twitter followers were Riddler and Clayface.



@CMPunk
“@ZackRyder: @CMPunk She played me bro” I got your back.
Promote this thread!
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 4 hours
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
Penguin, yes. Ra's? No. Ra's has the Magneto effect where to some degree, probably due to age, you see his point of view to the point, you agree with it. If you turn Ra's into Jobs or Assange, you run the risk of fans going "Why is Batman after this guy, again?" Granted, you can add some nefarious stuff like the way he goes about doing things, but Ra's has somehow become the most honorable of his Batman's villains that making him more modern may somehow devalue the character. Also, I like the fact that Ra's has lived for hundreds of years and yet, Bruce is the one who gives him fits for being the wise old man. He also has the most convenient out for coming back from the dead. Which DC with all their revamping madness could use.

I really thought if any character could be pulled from the Batverse and brought into Nolan's world, Penguin is the easiest one. Shit, I would have loved to audition for that part. The thing with Penguin is you have to make him the dark mirror of Bruce Wayne. The man who murdered his family to get his fortune and is very ugly. A very twisted Bruce, but they did that with Hush to little or no success. What they should do with Penguin is making him a master manipulator like Kingpin. He has his beak into everything at the same time, you can never nail him on it. Give him a story where he outwits Joker or Two-Face or even Batman to give him the mental edge. If they try to give him a more physical edge, I don't think it would work. I did like him in Arkham City and thought that could be a good stepping stone for him in some regards.

To me, I think the one that needs the most help is Riddler. I remember back in the day, Riddler was in the top four of villains with Joker, Two-Face and Ra's. Now, he is just there. He is a plot device for other things. I sorta liked him being a hero, but what I thought they totally fucked up with is him knowing Bruce is Batman and doing nothing with it. Yes, Bruce outwitted him in some degree, but you would think he would realize, he could send others after Wayne without tipping his hand. He needs to go back to being a guy who even in a fight is a little tough for Bruce due to his dexterity.

At the end of the day, Batman has a lot of villains that have been modernized so many times, its hard to figure out who is modern and who is not. Shit, I am going back and buying the 1st Silver Age appearances of the Batman crew (Got Batgirl, Riddler, Catwoman, Two-Face and Joker, so far). I am running into massive problems on what is the first silver age Batman is it Detective 357 or the first Adams/O'Neil? Even first modern Batman is confusing as hell, some places list Year One as the first modern Catwoman, but not Batman and Gordon. WTF?! Even that is a point of contention since Hugh's Catwoman is now being considered modern. It makes no sense.

Instead of worrying about making them "modern", just give them good stories. I have no idea when the last time, I read a good Riddler or Penguin story. If anything, have them off one of the villains like Killer Moth or Scarecrow to give them an edge. Have one of them, kill their own kind and deal with the consequences. Joker seems to do it and skirts away with it, show the consequences of that action and how it could develop the characters. And that is another point, develop these people. They need to evolve before you wipe the slate with them. We also need someone or someones to say what shit is when it comes to Golden, Silver and Modern. Almost 100 years of comics and we are not even close to some of this stuff.

(edited by lotjx on 18.6.12 1023)


The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 33 days
Last activity: 33 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
    Originally posted by lotjx
    I have no idea when the last time, I read a good Riddler or Penguin story.


Penguin is my favorite of the Bat villains, an offshoot (bumbershoot) of my love for Burgess Meredith in the Adam West Batman series. The recent Penguin: Pain and Prejudice and Joker's Asylum: Penguin that came out a few years back are pretty good. As for Riddler, the last great Riddler stories I read were in the 80s. The Question (#26, I think) when Vic Sage out-riddled him was fantastic. And there was The Riddler origin in Secret Origins Special in 1989 written by Neil Gaiman that was great. I believe that Secret Origins Special also had a great Penguin origin story by Gaiman.





@CMPunk
“@ZackRyder: @CMPunk She played me bro” I got your back.
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 9 hours
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.11
I always had the notion that there needn't be just one Joker. That the best way too explain his convenient insanity and wildly divergent mood swings is that there was more than one out there. (Morrison gave him "super-insanity," a meta power that allows him to choose his daily reboot).

Since the origin of the villain rarely figures into his capers, they needn't all have a backstory. We can let Joker Prime keep his Red Hood fiasco (even to the letter of what Alan Moore created in Killing Joke), but everyone else? They can follow the Ledger template: The origin is mercurial, even insignificant.

It also allows writers to pick their preferred iterations for their story. Joker Prime is practically courtly in his demeanor, whereas Ledger Joker is a street rat turned masterful tactician.

Look at how popular Joker is from the Nolan film. Why wouldn't a number of Gotham residents/criminals/nihilists also be seduced by chaos and aggression?

Not that Joker Prime would always approve of copycats. He's worked hard to build the Joker product; he can try to wipe those smiles of their faces too. What's more destructive for Gotham: One determined Joker or many, fighting over turf and pride?

Joker Prime has a true agenda: Render Gotham as chaotic as much as Batman wants it orderly, even safe. The other Jokers? They want whatever each wants. That allows the stories to go in many directions.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
I remember when Paul Dini and Bruce Timm were making the seminal Batman animated series, Riddler was only used a few times since (as a villain whose MO is totally based around puzzles and intellectualism) his stories were very difficult to write. Once you set a high bar for Riddler as coming up with intricate schemes that even Batman is challenged to solve, that's tough to replicate time after time.

I like the idea of Penguin being essentially Gotham's answer to the Kingpin, with his finger in every pie. What I always appreciated about Penguin is that he was completely sane, unlike most of Batman's other enemies -- Penguin wasn't a lunatic, he was just a criminal out to make money.

Clayface could use a reboot just so we can whittle his origin down to one distinct person. There have been about a dozen Clayfaces, all with differing motivations and powersets. Also, since I'm one of those who prefers the Batverse to be as 'realistic' as possible, I'd like to see Clayface's powers downgraded to maybe just a Chameleon-esque face-shifting ability, not being able to completely alter his body and turn himself into an oozing clay monster.



"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." --- Bart Giamatti, on baseball
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 4 hours
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
When the animated series did do the Riddler, they were fantastic episode, especially his origin. Shit, I think the animated series is the modern version of the Batman family, they should be looking to those for inspiration and probably not the Nolan films. Matt, if you somehow connect that Joker arc to how we get the Joker gangs in Batman Beyond, you would be my star fantasy writer for the day.

Clayface does need an update, but I am not sure if going with a realistic one is a good idea. What made Clayface so unique, is he is one of the few Super-villains that Bats fights. I like that about him. And if you want to go with the right origin, again the animated series was pretty freaking perfect for him. The animation for that episode maybe the best I have ever seen.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 33 days
Last activity: 33 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
    Originally posted by Big Bad

    I like the idea of Penguin being essentially Gotham's answer to the Kingpin,


It's funny, back in high school my friend and I used to dream up Marvel and DC crossover scenarios and our favorite was an idea for a book called KINGPIN-PENGUIN, essentially retconning Penguin into the DC version of Kingpin, and they trade off trying to kill Batman and Daredevil respectively. I guess it does seem like Oswald Cobblepot could naturally ascend into Gotham City's Wilson Fisk. But again, DC is content to relegate Penguin into his Iceberg Casino in the middle of the harbor.

I think Bruce Wayne would die of a heart attack if it turns out there are multiple Jokers. One is too many for him.



@CMPunk
“@ZackRyder: @CMPunk She played me bro” I got your back.
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.55
Totally seconding Penguin. They tried to make Black Mask the Kingpin in Gotham a few years back; could've done the same with Penguin and it would've flown (HA!).

I defy any to make a badassed modern Nolanverse Egghead or King Tut.

And a few years back they tried to modernize Riddler too. If anything, that's who you make into the Julian Assange/Steve Jobs type.



"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Frown and the world laughs at you."
-Me.
CruelAngel777
Frankfurter








Since: 7.4.02

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 21 hours
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.81
Are many people really that hung up on Harley's new outfit? It just went from footie pajamas to a two piece. Bad girls have a tendency to wear slutty clothes, it doesn't mean she is banging the entire Rogue's Gallery. Well except for the Deadshot but that didn't end so well for him cause Harley Quinn is still crazy. It's just a costume change, she is still the same bag of crazed cats she was pre-New 52.

Though I do prefer her outfit in Batman Arkham City.
Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 day
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.94
The last time Riddler was a good villian was as the 'Hush' mastermind. I'm pretty sure it's still one of, if not THE biggest selling Batman story of the modern era.

Before that, he was just a minor annoyance. There was a really good issue of Secret Origins though, that had an excellent Riddler story. It was him talking about the 'good old days' when all the Bat-Villians were just in it to have fun and goof on Batman.

Ra's is perfect the way he is. He can't change because he is still around in Legion of Super Heroes.

I'd like for someone to do something different with Mr. Freeze. He's a one note character if I've ever seen one. It's always about his dead wife. Geesh, get over it already.



Forget it Josh... it's Cerebustown.
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 9 hours
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.11
    Originally posted by Lexus
    I defy any to make a badassed modern Nolanverse Egghead or King Tut.



I'd tie in King Tut to Ra's al Ghul.

Take a villain who thinks he's King Tut and make him THE ACTUAL KING TUT kept alive via the Lazarus Pit. If he was given the treatment when he allegedly died, he'd be very young, possibly perpetually. That makes him close to Robin's age, giving Batman a villain who has more in common with Robin than him.

This moves Tut out of Gotham and makes him a global threat tied to an existing Batvillain. Give him the Anubis crown, and he gets a silhouette close to Batman's. If Ra's and Talia wanted to mold a young man into a leader of the world, why not a kid who was already king of an empire?



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 4 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
Was King Tut that bad of a dude in real life, he needs to be a villain. I am sure he would expect people to worship as a God, but about a half of a day in Gotham would fix of him of that. If he could speak the language. Egghead, well I got nothing for that.

I am not sure what you t can do with Freeze to modernize him that won't wreck him. You get rid of the Nora aspect of him then its just a guy in an ice suit. If you want to modernize him, have him go after the drug companies, but even then you run in the problem with modernizing Ra's, people will side with because they hate drug companies and its Batman beating up a guy, because they used to be enemies or he is wearing a silly costume.

I like Riddler as a Steve Jobs guy, goes back to the animated series of him designing the maze game. A CEO that lost everything and has to resort to crime or is bored out of his mind, he does criminal activites for the fun of it. Another way is to have him be a black market WikiLinks guy who is selling secrets to the other villains or rogue nations via Riddles. That way, he does not come off as an anti-hero. A Riddler that is a shadowy character who like Batman is talked about in whispers is not a bad way to go.





The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 33 days
Last activity: 33 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
    Originally posted by Cerebus
    I'd like for someone to do something different with Mr. Freeze. He's a one note character if I've ever seen one. It's always about his dead wife. Geesh, get over it already.


Batman Annual #1, which just came out a couple of weeks ago, directly addressed this and seismically shifted this aspect of Mr. Freeze's motivations.



@CMPunk
“@ZackRyder: @CMPunk She played me bro” I got your back.
theremin
Head cheese








Since: 31.1.12

Since last post: 66 days
Last activity: 1 day
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.09
Was going to post about that Batman Annual. That was good shit.
Scottyflamingo
Bratwurst








Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 378 days
Last activity: 107 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.49
You guys REALLY need to read Penguin: Pride and Predjudice. It is everything a fan clamoring for a badass Penguin could want.

Riddler in the Dini run of Detective was perfect. I loved the idea of him being a sleazy detective trying to beat Batman to the cases. I just think he's so much more interesting as a mostly reformed ex-foe.

Clayface should be updated in that they need to get rid of the 27 versions of the guy. I'd go for a reboot combining aspects of the different ones (The acting of Basil, the shape shifting of Hagan, so pretty much the animated series version).

I'd really like to see an updated Firefly. He's one step above Killer Moth in the pecking order. But a psychotic arsonist is something Batman hasn't really dealt with. Just make him an expert with stuff like napalm and explosives.

General Zod
Italian








Since: 1.10.05
From: Mesa, Arizona

Since last post: 755 days
Last activity: 14 days
#16 Posted on
I like the idea of an updated Firefly as well. My first choice would be Anarky, a most underrated Batman character.



I know you're a feminist and I think that's adorable, but this is grown-up time and I'm the man.
texasranger9
Chourico








Since: 9.1.11

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 53 min.
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.98
Gotham Underground had a lot of Penguin in it. Didn't Riddler go straight and become a P. I.? Did it last, or did he fall off the wagon, like how when Harvey Dent got plastic surgery?

Speaking of Dent, I would like to see a verion more like the Animated Series in the comics.

Any chance they would ever fuse two characters? I would like to see Scarecrow kill Mad Hatter. Take over a bit of his persona as well. Sow his pointy hood part to the top of Hatters tophat.
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 4 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
If anything, I would like to see them update the relationships between the villains. Who hates who, who is willing to team up and who is the king shit out of the group. Batman can exist in somewhat of a vacuum in the DCU, but the villains can't there has to be some kind of peaking order. I am also kinda glad that most of think that killing a few of the bottom feeders is not a bad idea.





The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
Scottyflamingo
Bratwurst








Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 378 days
Last activity: 107 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.49
    Originally posted by texasranger9
    Gotham Underground had a lot of Penguin in it. Didn't Riddler go straight and become a P. I.? Did it last, or did he fall off the wagon, like how when Harvey Dent got plastic surgery?



It didn't stick, he went psycho before Flashpoint. Not sure what his status is now.
It's False
Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

Since last post: 9 hours
Last activity: 6 hours
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.74
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
    Riddler in the Dini run of Detective was perfect. I loved the idea of him being a sleazy detective trying to beat Batman to the cases. I just think he's so much more interesting as a mostly reformed ex-foe.


I second this a thousand times over. This was the most interesting Riddler had ever been. He was the guy walking the amoral compass, still maintaining a loose connection to his villainous friends and roots while still managing to annoy the hell out of Batman. Meanwhile, you wondered if there really WAS a part of Riddler that was enjoying this new lifestyle -- a degree of fame, a legit money line (through both solved cases and merchandising), and less ass-kicking from the Bat.

Then Tony Daniel's Batman run came along and pissed the whole thing away to turn him back into a generic bad guy. In fact, I remember briefly slamming the whole bit when it happened a couple of years ago:

    BATMAN #693: Meanwhile, Tony Daniel continues his stories of the Falcone family's re-rise in Gotham, as the Falcone's goons systematically erase Black Mask's forces. Dick Grayson takes Helena Bertinelli and goes undercover at a Bruce Wayne party, as they watch over Tommy Elliot, still looking like Bruce Wayne. Helena runs into the Riddler while she tails a suspicious teenage girl, but there's hardly any time for a chat as a bomb goes off and blows them both away. Minutes later, Nygma gets up and apparently something snapped in him, because he looks like he's going evil again, essentially undoing three years of interesting character development. What a total waste!


Sure, Riddler needs an overhaul now, but he never would have needed one if DC hadn't hastily pulled the plug on his last overhaul.




"This is DIET Double Dew, Kyle! It only has half the caffeine and sugar of Double Dew!"
Pages: 1 2 Next
Thread rated: 4.39
Pages: 1 2 Next
Thread ahead: Cow Boy
Next thread: Smallville: Season 11 #8 - "Guardian"
Previous thread: New Comics coming out 6/27/12
(114 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The New York Times (nytimes.com) has an article on the rebuilding of Vertigo Comics as a brand. But the really interesting thing is the title and release date of Neil Gaiman and JH Williams III's Sandman: The Sandman:
Related threads: Before Watchmen: Silk Spectre #1 - Superman vs. The Elite - Four New New 52 Titles in September - More...
The W - Print - So, let's talk about the folks in Arkham...Register and log in to post!

The W™ message board

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim

This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.097 seconds.