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The W - Pro Wrestling - So apprently the Bret Hart Return kinda-sorta starts tonight (Page 2)
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It's False
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Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.32
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by StingArmy
      He's basically a very tall, very large, very muscular monster heel-type wrestler. Not all that different from several kick-punch-stomp midcarders of the past who fit that description (e.g., the Warlord, Stevie Ray, Big Poppa Pump-era Scott Steiner)


    I don't think he's as bad as the Warlord and Stevie Ray, two of the worst wrestlers of the last 20 years. He had a good match with Goldust. I think he's just ... a dude. A dude who might end up being good, but I can't be objective because I can't get over him bypassing so many people without even getting over.


And that's the crux of everything wrong with the Sheamus experiment.

I get that they need to make new stars. Everyone gets that. They need to give the belt to someone other than Cena or Orton or guys that have been in the main event since '04. I understand that.

Fine. Give it to Miz. Give it to Kofi. Give it to MVP. Give it to Swagger. Hell, bring Christian over from ECW and give it to HIM! God knows he's been in the biz long enough. There's a handful of guys who busted their asses to get over and are told to pay their dues, while some random guy named Sheamus comes in and gets a rocket strapped to his ass, while none of the aforementioned even get a chance. Well, except for Miz, who got squashed like a bug in all of his matches with Cena.

Sheamus didn't do anything to set himself apart from anyone else. His most notable achievement before winning the title was "retiring" Jamie Noble, which was about as hard as winning a handicap match against the Brooklyn Brawler and Dwayne Gill.

If you're away from the "E" for as long as JJD, it's legit to wonder why the hell Sheamus is world champion, especially for as little airtime as he gets. He got five minutes of screentime tonight and was never mentioned again through the rest of the show. What's a newer fan to think?

(edited by It's False on 5.1.10 0013)


There can be only ONE!
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 3 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.58
Look, "paying your dues" is a BS argument. It's the same kind of reasoning that folks like Hogan, Nash, HHH et al use to hold people down. Whether a guy's been in the biz one year or ten, if he's good enough then he should be pushed.

The thing with Sheamus is that they needed to do something about the stagnant ME scene and they needed to do it fast. It's much easier to slot a dominant new guy into an instant ME program than it is to suddenly make the fans accept estblished midcarders like Miz, Kofi et al as bona fide topliners. It's got nothing to do with in-ring ability and everything to do with being in the right place at the right time. And I wouldn't want to see Kofi or anyone else in Sheamus' position, because they'd likely die on their ass and blow their first title reign.
Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 2 hours
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
They're really doing Sheamus no favors as champ, either. Every week he gets a 20 second promo and a two minute squash match against a guy who has no chance of beating him to try and convince us all that he deserves to hold the belt. This whole thing isn't making Sheamus look like he belongs in the main event; it's making the title look devalued. Especially because basically no one on the show is coming after him. Evan Bourne is great and all, but are we supposed to believe that HHH, Shawn Michaels, Randy Orton, etc. have no interest in coming after this untested guy when he calls out the entire locker room? This whole thing is just ill-conceived.
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 22 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.42
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Look, "paying your dues" is a BS argument. It's the same kind of reasoning that folks like Hogan, Nash, HHH et al use to hold people down. Whether a guy's been in the biz one year or ten, if he's good enough then he should be pushed.

Just because an argument has been misappropriated by the self-interested doesn't make it a BS argument by proxy. Paying your dues makes sense. If this was any other business, and someone was promoted to basically the top position without demonstrably accomplishing anything whatsoever, the entire company would be in an uproar. I could see them wanting to elevate Seamus to a main event slot on a temporary basis to freshen things up, ala Big John Studd versus Andre and later Hogan, but there was no reason to give Studd the title and Seamus is even less deserving.

This is like giving an Academy Award to Hayden Christensen (or whoever you think sucks). Like Vince, the Academy gives the award to whoever they want to have it, but they usually don't give it to people universally regarded as being completely worthless and undeserving. Just being a wrestler isn't good enough, by that logic there is no skill or artistry to wrestling at all; which, of course, there isn't, when you're watching Seamus.

Paying dues also has a lot to do with the reactions of the fans. The wrestling audience typically takes several years to fully accept a talent. There are a few exceptions to this, like Goldberg or the Ultimate Warrior, but in those cases they had freak charisma and the audience practically demanded their elevation, which is hardly the case here. You would note Lesnar for example, was really only just barely getting over as a top hand toward the end of his run, and, perhaps due to NOT having had to pay dues, took the money and ran. It's about relationship building, earning trust and respect. This isn't being promoted to manage a burger king. These are people giving their bodies to you in an incredibly dangerous and high-risk field; there has to be respect and trust there.

And please, let's stop with the "people on this board" and the "IWC". Yes, yes, we're all nerds and our opinion isn't the mainstream. Bullshit. I have spoken to many people who used to watch but don't anymore, and several of them have laughed at the prospect of Seamus as Champion. Especially as I had to explain him to them how he won, and send them links via MSN. And by laughed I mean at, not with. The consensus is "who would watch this shit" and "wrestling sucks now". He is the MASCOT for the sentiment.



PS - Isn't it time for Seamus to get his own thread? It seems every RAW reaction thread, and now one about Bret Hart, gets railroaded into a Seamus debate...Just a thought.

(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 6.1.10 1316)


Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 509 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.87
    Originally posted by Tenken347
    They're really doing Sheamus no favors as champ, either. Every week he gets a 20 second promo and a two minute squash match against a guy who has no chance of beating him to try and convince us all that he deserves to hold the belt. This whole thing isn't making Sheamus look like he belongs in the main event; it's making the title look devalued. Especially because basically no one on the show is coming after him. Evan Bourne is great and all, but are we supposed to believe that HHH, Shawn Michaels, Randy Orton, etc. have no interest in coming after this untested guy when he calls out the entire locker room? This whole thing is just ill-conceived.






See the Ron Garvin NWA World Title reign for what happens when no one respects the man with the belt.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 3 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.71
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    See the Ron Garvin NWA World Title reign for what happens when no one respects the man with the belt.


I had always understood that Garvin was the only midcard guy who would accept a quick reign intended to give Flair a return match to win the belt back. Sheamus has to be considered in the same position. He can't carry the belt to WrestleMania. I can't believe that.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 day
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.49
So who has paid their dues? Has Jack Swagger, who's been around all of eighteen months? Has Kofi, ditto? Has MVP, who's never been able to sustain a consistent crowd reaction? Had Jericho when he arrived in 1999? Or Big Show? Or Kane?

And what of Sheamus, a guy who's been wrestling the world over since 2002, longer than Miz, longer than Kofi, longer than Swagger, longer than Morrison? Does that not count as paying your dues? The term is so nebulous that it's ultimately meaningless.

EDIT: As amusing as it may be to some, the plan seems to be Sheamus/HHH for the belt at 'Mania.

(edited by Amos Cochran on 7.1.10 0656)
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 1 day
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.63
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    Paying your dues makes sense. If this was any other business, and someone was promoted to basically the top position without demonstrably accomplishing anything whatsoever, the entire company would be in an uproar.

It's a subjective industry. It happens. If you work for a design company and they bring in a graphic designer whose work management absolutely love, you can expect that person will be employed at a higher level and given opportunities that designers already in the company would not be given. The other designers may not like it but if the people at the top think the new fellow's work is of a higher standard I'm pretty sure they won't hold him back just to keep the minions happy.

I dunno, I just think it would be silly to hold someone you think has talent back because he hasn't got as much experience as a guy you perceive to have less talent. That isn't even the case here though. Sheamus has been at the professional wrestling gig for some time, he's only new to the WWE.

For the record, I'm kinda whatever on Sheamus. I don't see what they apparenly do, but I've no problem with them pushing a "new" guy to the top quickly.


    And please, let's stop with the "people on this board" and the "IWC". Yes, yes, we're all nerds and our opinion isn't the mainstream. Bullshit. I have spoken to many people who used to watch but don't anymore, and several of them have laughed at the prospect of Seamus as Champion. Especially as I had to explain him to them how he won, and send them links via MSN.

Your study is scientific and stands up to scrutiny.

In related news, I finally managed to get a couple of my friends back into watching football this year. They agree with my contention that the Eagles were robbed in every defeat they have suffered in recent years. They didn't watch the games at the time and get a chance to form their own opinions or anything, but I told them all about it.

Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 1 day
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.42
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    And what of Sheamus, a guy who's been wrestling the world over since 2002...
    font face=verdana size=-2>(edited by Amos Cochran on 7.1.10 0656)



It's mind-boggling he could be that bad after seven years. I didn't say paying dues was only criteria. It's paying dues and actually being good. The latter being more important than the former.

    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Your study is scientific and stands up to scrutiny.


I'm not sure why you're being so condescending, but regardless, I don't remember claiming my "study" was scientific. Your implication I poisoned them against the notion of Seamus as Champion is presumptuous. It's assuredly anecdotal, but the point I was trying to make was that other Champions like Orton, Cena, Undertaker, etc seem to be accepted as credible even by people I've spoken to who no longer watch. I've never in my life as a wrestling fan seen people who aren't "the IWC", react with such incredulity and disdain to someone becoming Champion, with the possible exception of David Arquette.

(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 7.1.10 0822)


Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 day
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.49
So they really dug JBL and Khali, huh?

How are you in a position to judge Sheamus as being an outright bad wrestler? He's only had one WWE match of any length - against Cena - and it was perfectly servicable. Having seen some of his IWW stuff I can say that's pretty good, especially for a guy his size.
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 48 days
Last activity: 22 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    So they really dug JBL and Khali, huh?

    How are you in a position to judge Sheamus as being an outright bad wrestler? He's only had one WWE match of any length - against Cena - and it was perfectly servicable. Having seen some of his IWW stuff I can say that's pretty good, especially for a guy his size.

Whether or not Sheamus is objectively a "good" wrestler or a decent entertainer, I feel like the fact that you (and/or any of Sheamus' other apologists) have to spend so much time debating and defending his title reign as NOT the worst thing ever might be proof enough that making him the number one wrestling champion in the world right now (just think about THAT) is a bit premature at best and the worst idea ever at worst. When's the last time anything like this happened before?

As for me, I'd be happy if I saw more from him other than that flying scissorkick thingy and the Extra Pale Razor's Edge.

- StingArmy
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 day
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.49
I'm not an apologist at all. I'd rather have Sheamus as champion than Cena or Orton or HHH right now. And you honestly think that, outside of maybe Kofi, any of the midcarders that have been put forward would be getting significantly better reactions than him? It seems like for every guy willing to give Sheamus a chance, there are two who are knee-jerk declaring him to be uterly useless and an insult to the title. And that's just dumb.

It's funny. Everyone keeps on banging the "worst idea ever" drum, but I've not seen the ratings drop, and fans are actually chanting Cena's name for once. I'm pretty sure WWE are getting what they want out of Sheamus as champ.
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 1 day
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.63
    Originally posted by HMD
    I'm not sure why you're being so condescending

That's my bad, not Mr Cochrane. I was shooting for "poking the fun" rather than "condescending". Sorry if it came off wrong.

Point was just that people tend to be influenced by the way things are phrased/described to them, not that you were deliberately poisoning anyone against him. That would be.....kinda weird.


    I've never in my life as a wrestling fan seen people who aren't "the IWC", react with such incredulity and disdain to someone becoming Champion, with the possible exception of David Arquette.

Again, my bad. I thought you were talking about the views of the IWC in general being mainstream, not just in this instance.[/mea culpa]

Still have no issue with Sheamus being where he is right enough. Vive la difference!

(edited by dMr on 7.1.10 1615)
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 11 days
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.50
Look at Edge’s first title reign. Here was a guy that, at the time, just about everyone would have agreed DID pay his dues. He put in his time in WWE, took his licks, and worked his way to the top. But he was, without question and despite his claim otherwise, a transitional champ. Plus he won that title in a pretty flukey way, much like Sheamus. Edge’s first reign was (and Sheamus’ is) a means to an end: getting it back to John Cena. Cena’s allure and draw (still) is in his chasing the title, not defending it. At some point, that allure will disappear. Sometimes the title belt is a measure and recognition of achievement, but sometimes it really is just a prop (to use Bob Ryder’s much maligned words...was it Ryder who said that?).



You askew my mirror. I askew yours.
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 54 min.
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.30
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran

    How are you in a position to judge Sheamus as being an outright bad wrestler? He's only had one WWE match of any length - against Cena - and it was perfectly servicable.


That's how they're judging him as a bad champ.

Most people don't care how long he was in the independents and not on TV. He has been on American TV in the WWE for such a short time and has been mostly unimpressive that people don't think he deserves to be champ just yet.

EDIT:

Just as an addition, I'm so disgusted with WWE TV, I watched all the Bret bits on Raw and FF'ed through everything else. If it weren't for him being on Raw, I wouldn't have bothered DVRing it.

(edited by Zeruel on 7.1.10 1340)


-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

-- July 2009 Ordained Reverend --
Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 3 days
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    Just as an addition, I'm so disgusted with WWE TV, I watched all the Bret bits on Raw and FF'ed through everything else. If it weren't for him being on Raw, I wouldn't have bothered DVRing it.


While disgusted is a strong word, I am pretty much in this boat as well. I watched a few RAWs leading up to the Bret Hart return, and, frankly, there's not a lot there to keep me interested beyond the Hart nostalgia factor (which I still haven't got around to watching on DVR). Part of the issue for me is that they lost me long ago, so I am far more interested in reviewing those nostalgic moments on DVD/YouTube than I am willing to devote the kind of time/money I was wiling to devote five - even three - years ago.

With regards to Sheamus, I just don't feel like I am obligated to like him or give them a chance with him. I wasn't that impressed with him, it's not like they haven't hot-shotted someone before, and I am not convinced much will change in the next three to six months anyway. So fine, he's a better option than HHH/Cena/Orton right now - but all that means is that they've repeatedly backed themselves into a corner with those three guys.



Who likes the little little duckies in the pond? I do, I do, I do, a chicka-quack quack.
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
Re: Sheamus. What's bad is (as JJD points out) - to the new, or comeback viewer, they did nothing to promote him being The Guy

A few weeks back, to build for Cena, they did a hell of a set of promo packages. At least it made him look like a big deal. Maybe not having Cena to play off of, or the main focus being the Bret ordeal, he got lost in the mix this week

I like the guy. He's a hell of a lot better (at least as far as time served in WWE) than Cena or Orton were at that same point. He has a unique look, a body that the company likes and potential to be a good monster heel

I wouldn't look at it like Sheamus has to rule for years, but more from the point of view that the company needs about 10 Kanes - guys that can work a mid-card program and put someone over, if needed - but also someone, every few years, that people will believe is a Main Event title threat. A Go-to-Guy; something that is more of a gap for the future than not having a Main Event Performer. JTTS is what we used to call them. Or, a "Foley"

They have tried and failed with (help me out here F'N Shapiro):

Snitsky
Heidenreich
Nathan Jones
Mordecai
(everyone the UT has tried to make a monster - that's easier)

and - Masters, Carlito, Henry (although he's okay) and probably more

Point is - Sheamus is hand-picked and approved for the Top - the same as Batista and Orton were, once upon a time. I think they worked out okay. Others, not so much, but they never had the stamp

Here's a question - a great Dues Been Paid Independent Wrestler comes in - weird looking fucker - especially when he's sporting a rat's nest looking beard. He has connections with the Top and is Grade-A stamped. Full steam ahead

So, if Danielson gets the belt, ASAP, is it the same problem? Is he guaranteed to have as good a match with Cena (or Orton or, etc) in that position as Sheamus did? Sounds like a no-brainer on paper, but I've seen better plans fail

Plus, Sheamus is gold for the Overseas market. You can't say that for everybody

FLEA




Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

"Learn to love yourself... for it is the greatest love of all" - Jeremy Borash 11:24 AM May 13th,2009
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.66
    Originally posted by Mr Shh
    Look at Edge’s first title reign. Here was a guy that, at the time, just about everyone would have agreed DID pay his dues. He put in his time in WWE, took his licks, and worked his way to the top. But he was, without question and despite his claim otherwise, a transitional champ. Plus he won that title in a pretty flukey way, much like Sheamus. Edge’s first reign was (and Sheamus’ is) a means to an end: getting it back to John Cena.


Actually, though Edge has been a bona-fide main eventer for a few years and has held the title 9-10 times, I'd argue he STILL hasn't had anything more than a 'transitional' reign as champion. What's his longest stint as world champion, three months?



Kirk, crackers are a family food. Happy families. Maybe single people eat crackers, we don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know. It's a market we can do without.
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.30
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by Zeruel
      Just as an addition, I'm so disgusted with WWE TV, I watched all the Bret bits on Raw and FF'ed through everything else. If it weren't for him being on Raw, I wouldn't have bothered DVRing it.


    While disgusted is a strong word, I am pretty much in this boat as well.


I chose to use disgusted because the last time I watched Raw and ECW, WWE cameras can peer into the daydreams of their Superstars and they have the power to subtitle the mumblings of a leprechaun. Wrestling was already getting stupid silly to me at that point and that was the last straw for me.



-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

-- July 2009 Ordained Reverend --
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 3 days
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    I chose to use disgusted because the last time I watched Raw and ECW, WWE cameras can peer into the daydreams of their Superstars and they have the power to subtitle the mumblings of a leprechaun. Wrestling was already getting stupid silly to me at that point and that was the last straw for me.


I guess I missed that, so all I can say is... touché.



Who likes the little little duckies in the pond? I do, I do, I do, a chicka-quack quack.
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I sure hope Carlito doesn't drop the title to Cena unless CCC is majorly injured. Even then, I'd rather have him drop it to someone else. Cena is a three time champion, and the US Title is just a prop for him.
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