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22.12.14 0029
The W - Pro Wrestling - Smackdown Spoilers for 7/22 (Page 3)
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Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3617 days
Last activity: 3617 days
#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.62
Yeah, I about pissed myself when Taker's bong went off during the Rumble, you know why? Taker is a legend. Taker, not matter what you say, is always going to be a fan favorite. The gimmick which Mark plays very well will always be over. There is something about it that makes it very appealing and mysterious. Kenzo is a heel Jap, big fucking deal. Even in Japan he wasn't that great either. Kenzo being pushed is just to have another jobber heel. He will not be over in a serious way with the fans. Ten years from now, no one will know his name.

I like to take offense with the idea that the casual fan doesn't matter. The casual fan was all of us before the invention of the internet. I'm sure we were all passionate about wrestling, but with the internet, everyone feels their opinion is the opinion that should be heard from and the casual fan should go away. The casual fan is what keeps wrestling going and always keep wrestling going. Wrestling fans on the net make -up on a good day about 5% of the fanbase. The rest are people who tune watch and will buy tickets when its in town. They are not the ones on the internet everyday bashing HHH, looking for spoilers or writing on message boards about how great Orton is even he sucks. The casual fan makes and breaks careers. To be honest, they have been on the money more times than me. I thought Cena was vanilla and should have been sent back to OVW. I thought that Hogan should have always been booed during Wrestlemania X-8 and that they should never put the belt on a mid-carder like HHH during 99. I was wrong, but the fans were right and it lead to great moments. I appericate the casual fan, I don't always like who they cheer for, but they pay the same amount I do, so its their choice who they cheer for. God Bless them.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 4 hours
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Look, the context of how someone is entertained may have changed in the 80s, but the concept someone really getting into their character and making them entertaining against all odds is no different and never will be than the Hogan era. Suzuki has done this for me so far.

Well, good for you. Too bad not many other people (casual fans included) are entertained by him. No matter how into his character Suzuki gets, he's still pretty bad in the ring. Today's fans are less willing to overlook that fact than they were 10-15 years ago.


    He is? You know, watching his match at Vengeance I SWEAR I could detact an 'apathy' chant filling the arena.

I didn't see the Vengeance match, so it'll be hard to comment. However, he was against Luther Reigns, who was pretty new to the company, so maybe that had something to do with it? How much offense did Haas get?

I do know, however, that Rico/Haas were pretty over, and you can't tell me that was 100% Rico and no Haas. I know he got some decent face pops in his couple singles matches since teaming w/ Rico. Once Rico got hurt, they should have gave him a little push to see if the face heat was going to stick. Even if he is "just a little over", it's more than Suzuki can say.

Haas has history, both as a Team Angle/WGTT member, and the tag title run w/ Rico. Fans would be more receptive of a Haas push than they have of Suzuki.


    Uh, yes, and your argument was hardly foolproof enough to convince me either. Haas isn't over and you're overrating Jindrak. Sorry.

Haas is over. And Jindrak, while not great (or even very good) by any stretch of the imagination, was showing signs of improvement, was getting over, and was really into his character (hey, I thought you liked that?). He was getting more of a reaction in his Velocity matches than Kenzo was getting.

If facts can't convince you, then I've got nothing.


    you're overrating Jindrak

You're defending Suzuki! The irony here is deafening.


    Which is what they do for every wrestler they have?! Oh wait, he's NEW so bad. I gotcha.

Being new has nothing to do with it. He's bad because he's bad. Really bad. Bad, bad, bad.

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 22.7.04 2247)

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 22.7.04 2351)

leggo
Mettwurst








Since: 23.3.04
From: Dublin, Ireland

Since last post: 3777 days
Last activity: 3621 days
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.04
Wrestling fans on the net make -up on a good day about 5% of the fanbase.

That's the line WWE would like to feed you so they can neglect our criticisms. The ACTIVE net fan, the guy who frequents all of the major sites and posts in several message boards, makes us about 5%, but I have to believe that the readers who don't bother with taking an active part in the IWC, but still read columns and keep updated with all of the inside news (and believe me there's a lot. My highest read column had over 8,000 readers, yet I got three pieces of feedback for it and our forums have 250 members max) is more in the 40-65% region. How many wrestling fans do YOU know that don't have access in any way to the Internet? And tell me, why wouldn't they use them to get some info on wrestling every now and again, even if they're not as dedicated as maybe you or I mght be?

Too bad not many other people (casual fans included) are entertained by him. No matter how into his character Suzuki gets, he's still pretty bad in the ring.

Sorry, but you seem to be hung up on me trying to prove something to you, so please offer me proof that casual and smart fans alike aren't warming to this guy. I've seen a definite decline in criticism for him since he was put in the US Title scene. The smart consensus tends to be, from those who've seen him wrestle a match long enough to actually judge his skills by, "I don't know why WWE hired him, but wait and see..." at least from my standpoint.

Today's fans are less willing to overlook that fact than they were 10-15 years ago.

Tell me, what's so great about Cena in the ring? The fans pop for him 'pumping it up', 'the five-knuckle shuffle' and 'You can't see me' when he's in there, which are all character based moves and hardly take a technical master to do, and Cena is one of the most insanely over guys on the roster. Cena hasn't proven anything to me in terms of raw technical wrestling, but has proven his worth in spades as far as 'sports entertainment' wrestling goes.

I didn't see the Vengeance match, so it'll be hard to comment. However, he was against Luther Reigns, who was pretty new to the company, so maybe that had something to do with it? How much offense did Haas get?

Despite contrary reports, it WAS more than a jobber match. Haas teased several comebacks and got glimpses of sustained offence, so it wasn't all Luther. And know what? The crowd were still dead for the match. Oh and just to correct myself from earlier, it was at GAB not Vengeance.

I do know, however, that Rico/Haas were pretty over, and you can't tell me that was 100% Rico and no Haas. I know he got some decent face pops in his couple singles matches since teaming w/ Rico. Once Rico got hurt, they should have gave him a little push to see if the face heat was going to stick. Even if he is "just a little over", it's more than Suzuki can say.

Haas has history, both as a Team Angle/WGTT member, and the tag title run w/ Rico. Fans would be more receptive of a Haas push than they have of Suzuki.


I CAN tell you it was 100% Rico and not Haas, because the whole angle was ABOUT Rico's outlandishness. Now Haas played his part well, but the fans popped for Rico's homo-esque moves and little else. At times, the fans showed signs of being supportive of Haas, but that doesn't constitute being 'over'. Over states that fans recognise you and cheer or boo for you upon recognition alone. Since Suzuki is far more distinguishable than Haas, he has more of a chance of being over. Simple as that.

Haas is over. And Jindrak, while not great (or even very good) by any stretch of the imagination, was showing signs of improvement, was getting over, and was really into his character (hey, I thought you liked that?). He was getting more of a reaction in his Velocity matches than Kenzo was getting.

If facts can't convince you, then I've got nothing.


Stating Haas being over as fact is ludicrous. Please point to one single match he's wrestled on his own, without Rico or Shelton Benjamin (HELL I'll even allow you to include matches with Jackie Gayda, who horny men would pop for anyway) that the fans have been 100% into and behind/against him? Haas always gets the 'well he's supposed to be a good guy so I better cheer him' treatment from the crowd. I don't consider that over.

As for Jindrak, that's a very moot point. I'm of the opinion that not enough people are aware of his gimmick and recognise him for him to be known to the casual fan, much less over. Heck, I often see him in screens for matches on Velocity or whatever and have to think about who he is, so he's not instantly recognisable to me. Much less would I consider him exposed enough to be over.

You're defending Suzuki! The irony here is deafening.

Suzuki is better for the role because he offers more diversity to it. He, Booker and Dupree play the perfect foils for Cena, and help to push Cena just that bit further up the popularity ladder. While doing this, he's also establishing himself as a regular SmackDown star. I can't see Haas or Jindrak being better for the role in any way, even if they are better technical wrestlers. Sorry.

Being new has nothing to do with it. He's bad because he's bad. Really bad. Bad, bad, bad.

In your opinion, fine. But it's by no means fact and we'll wait and see if he finds his feet on SmackDown or not. I have faith in him.



Powerwrestling News Central
Updated JULY 21ST with a review of the second quarter of 2004.

Leggo's Two Cents
Updated June 17th as Leggo says Enough Already to the IWC.
Dexley's Midnight Jogger
Pepperoni
Moderator








Since: 10.10.02
From: New Hampshire

Since last post: 322 days
Last activity: 236 days
#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.56
    Originally posted by Mayhem
    I know it's been stated in the past, but RVD could really stand a good heel turn. Have Paul Heyman light a fire under Rob by saying he's gone stale & soft and has been stuck in the same ol' monotony for two years now. You don't have to necessarily put Heyman with RVD, but use him as a piece of the puzzle.

    You then have some fresh feuds with Cena, Haas, Rey and another feud with Eddie (which IMO, his last feud with Eddie was when he was at his WWE peak).

    (edited by Mayhem on 22.7.04 1036)


I'd say that he does need some manager to help him out, and if not Paul Heyman, I'd like to see Bill Alfonso brought in for him. A cocky heel is a better fit for RVD than a clueless face.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 4 hours
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    so please offer me proof that casual and smart fans alike aren't warming to this guy. I've seen a definite decline in criticism for him since he was put in the US Title scene.

Proof = NOBODY CHEERING OR BOOING THE GUY. Look at the live crowds - he's not getting any reaction. I haven't seen any decline in criticism for the guy. In fact, you seem to be the only guy praising him.


    Tell me, what's so great about Cena in the ring?

He's a fantastic seller, and he's got charisma in spades.


    Since Suzuki is far more distinguishable than Haas, he has more of a chance of being over.

Really? What's so distiguishable about Suzuki? Besides, the Rico/Haas team was about Rico's outlandishness and Haas's stuggle to accept him as he is.

And the fans don't need to be 100% behind Haas in order for him to be over. The fact is, he did garner some face heat from his teaming w/ Rico. He *is* more over than Suzuki. If you can't see that he's better than Suzuki in every conceivable way, then I can only conclude that you're just trying to play the "anti-smark" card.


    As for Jindrak, that's a very moot point. I'm of the opinion that not enough people are aware of his gimmick and recognise him for him to be known to the casual fan, much less over. Heck, I often see him in screens for matches on Velocity or whatever and have to think about who he is, so he's not instantly recognisable to me. Much less would I consider him exposed enough to be over.

Suzuki has been on SD pretty much every week for the last 2 months. He's had a PPV match. He had numerous video promos heralding his debut. AND HE'S STILL NOT THE LEAST BIT OVER.

Jindrak had a few jobber squashes on Velocity, and had actually begun getting a response. Based on that fact alone, I would've at least given him a shot on SD to see what happens. He couldn't/can't have done any worse than Suzuki is doing. Plus, it's not like Jindrak is a "smark darling", so it's OK for you to give him some praise.


    Suzuki is better for the role because he offers more diversity to it. He, Booker and Dupree play the perfect foils for Cena, and help to push Cena just that bit further up the popularity ladder. While doing this, he's also establishing himself as a regular SmackDown star. I can't see Haas or Jindrak being better for the role in any way, even if they are better technical wrestlers. Sorry.

More diversity? Do you want to explain that? And the only thing he's establishing himself as is a jobber for John Cena, so I guess I agree he's better for that than Haas, since Haas is better than that. A regular SD "star"? Ha!


    Being new has nothing to do with it. He's bad because he's bad. Really bad. Bad, bad, bad.

    In your opinion, fine. But it's by no means fact and we'll wait and see if he finds his feet on SmackDown or not. I have faith in him.

No, it is fact. They were going to give him a huge push on Raw, then decided against it. They aborted his push on SD. So, it's obvious the WWE knows he's bad. He hasn't had 1 good match since he debuted. He has no charisma. He. Is. Bad.

And how much more time should I give him? I've seen him for 2 months, and I've seen no improvements whatsoever. Prove me otherwise.



leggo
Mettwurst








Since: 23.3.04
From: Dublin, Ireland

Since last post: 3777 days
Last activity: 3621 days
AIM:  
#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.04
You're generalising, being illogical and stating your opinion as fact, there's no point continuing this debate. Let's just agree to disagree okay?



Powerwrestling News Central
Updated JULY 21ST with a review of the second quarter of 2004.

Leggo's Two Cents
Updated June 17th as Leggo says Enough Already to the IWC.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 4 hours
AIM:  
#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
I'm being illogical? Hey, whatever.

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 23.7.04 1016)


chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

Since last post: 2747 days
Last activity: 2747 days
#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.39
    Originally posted by leggo
    Wrestling fans on the net make -up on a good day about 5% of the fanbase.

    That's the line WWE would like to feed you so they can neglect our criticisms. The ACTIVE net fan, the guy who frequents all of the major sites and posts in several message boards, makes us about 5%.


You're both right. But I think he was referring to the active fans. Those of us who belong to the "5 per cent" often refer to ourselves as if we are the only fans that exist. I agree about everything you said on the active net fans. It's not likely any of us can determine how many wrestling fans out there frequent the net for news & rumors. I think it's an even higher percentage than you suggest, which isn't important, but it's surprising how many people I overhead at live events talking about "inside information" and the reasons why so-and-so won't be appearing at the show that night.

For the record (and getting back to the topic that was at hand), I moderately enjoyed Smackdown. The matches were pretty good. The show overall felt a little disjointed, but it's going through a transition of sorts, so it's to be expected that there will be some "feeling-out" process for what works and what doesn't.

And yeah, there might be one or two people here who would benefit from taking a step back and not feeling it necessary to respond to everything everyone else says and shout them down as if the way they see things is the only way. I'd be here all day if I pointed out all the flaws in their arguments, let alone everyone they're criticizing. I enjoy reading people's different points of view on topics. It's a lot less fun when someone has to be the center of attention. That's just my 2 cents.


(edited by chill on 23.7.04 1435)

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