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The W - Current Events & Politics - Should We Rebuild The Twin Towers?
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Tha Puerto Rican
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Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#1 Posted on
Well, it has been 9 months since September 11, and now that our emotions are in check, wounds healed, we feel better and more realistic enough to talk about the rebuilding process. The question now is what to do with the formely named "Ground Zero?" For me, IMO, livng in New York, I used to love the Twin Towers. Watching them soared over all the other builddings in lower Manhattan like giants. They are how I could tell I was in New York. With them, gone, it feels like New York is just a small city. I seriously think we should rebuild the Twin Towers. Not just rebuild them, but bigger just as a way to say, "FUCK YOU!" to Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda. I may be a leftist but I don't sympathize with Bin Laden. Killing innocent people no matter what the cause is wrong. 111 stories. Now, some may say, "No one is going to work in a place where 2,823 people died and where body parts still remain." Then how about the top floors of the two towers, floors 75-100 (the exact floors that were hit by the airplanes,) will be the names of the people that died sort of like the memorial to the victims of TWA Flight 800. And the bottom floors be the offices, shops, resturants. And for a REAL memorial, how about a park instead of the World Finacial Center. (We don't really need them do we?)

I would like to know how to start an online petition to be sent to the Rebuuilding Committe with enough signatures, the people in charge will listen to us. If anyone can help me with that, it would be much appreiacted.

What do you think?



THa Puerto Rican

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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
I think an online petition is gonna be ignored, dude.

As for your suggestion to name the top floors after the people who died... Nah. I mean, you wondered who would want to work in a burial ground to start with; well, who wants to go to the "Bob Smith floor," knowing full well what became of Bob? It's like a big sign that says "Caution: Top 25 Floors May get Killed by Plane."

I think a series of smaller structures would be a good solution. That way we rebuild our financial center and kind of move away from the spectre of the 9/11 disaster. I don't think people would want to see a new Twin Towers, exactly like the old one.

And I think a financial center is a better monument to these people than a park. For one thing, the people in the WTC died doing their jobs. They died, in a sense, in the path of progress, working hard and advancing American business. Osama would love to see all our financial structures destroyed and replaced with parks, I think. The engine of America and American culture is business, and whatever its faults, business leads to progress. If you really want to say "fuck you" to Osama, then let's just pick up where we left off and get back to business as usual.

(And I don't mean we should be as lax as before, I just mean we don't need to change our way of life because of this)



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Since: 30.8.02
From: New York, NY

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#3 Posted on
I would like to build the same exact towers again, but it ain't gonna happen because people are superstitious. It will still be a business area for the most part, because honestly, Manhattan is set up for that to be a business area and it'd be a huge economic waste not to put it back there. But there will surely be a memorial of some kind as well.

"Caution: Top 25 Floors May get Killed by Plane." Sick humor, but I laughed hard.

(edited by T.R. on 30.5.02 1847)


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Tha Puerto Rican
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Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    I think an online petition is gonna be ignored, dude.

    As for your suggestion to name the top floors after the people who died... Nah. I mean, you wondered who would want to work in a burial ground to start with; well, who wants to go to the "Bob Smith floor," knowing full well what became of Bob? It's like a big sign that says "Caution: Top 25 Floors May get Killed by Plane. I don't think people would want to see a new Twin Towers, exactly like the old one.

    And I think a financial center is a better monument to these people than a park. For one thing, the people in the WTC died doing their jobs.If you really want to say "fuck you" to Osama, then let's just pick up where we left off and get back to business as usual.

    (And I don't mean we should be as lax as before, I just mean we don't need to change our way of life because of this)



That's not exactly what I meant. I meant that the top floors will be empty as a symbol of the victims souls. The top floors up to floor 50 for example, will be filled with the names of the victims that is all.

A recent poll said that 46% of New Yorkers would like the Twin Towers built again. And we don't necessary have to put the Twin Towers back in their original spot. Somewhere else in Lower Manhattan could be home to the Twin Towers. The new Twin Towers could also be the centerpiece of the rebuilding effort.

I meant the World Finacial Center that is below the Twin Towers torn down to make room for the memorial park.

Not if the U.S. goverment we have now is in charge. Al Queda wouldn't attack the Twin Towers if they were symbols of SOCIALISM *Pardon Leftist Rant*: I find it disgusting that more people died in Operation: Enduring Freedom than the victims of the September 11 terrorist attacks. The whole point was to find or kill Osama Bin Laden and wipe out Al Queda. Justice has to be done. That is all well in good but now it is a "War on Terror" that includes Iraq?! What the fuck does Iraq have to do with the attacks. Saddam Hussein said he is glad the attacks happen. Cruel? Yes. Reason to start another war with him? Hell no. Actions speak louder than words. All the innocent Afghans. And why would the U.S. drop pro-captialism, pro-American leaflets after bombing them? Wow! A piece of paper will make people who just lost their homes and their love ones feel better, that'll make them love the U.S.! NOT! Hate is the better word.

If you really want to know why Osama Bin Laden hates the U.S. so much that he wants us all dead at all costs, look at your captialist goverment.

On a related note thanks to Micheal Moore-President Bush and George Bush Sr. met with the Taliban in May of 2001. 4 MONTHS before the attacks. HELLO! Bush met with the emeney! The Taliban had been giving us oil for the past 3 years and we seem to have no promblem with it! WAKE UP!

*Leftist Rant Over.*





THa Puerto Rican

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PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
50 empty floors... in a skyscraper? That's like asking someone to build a 50 story building and leave it empty, just as a memorial. The whole concept of the memorial is overrated. People die, horribly, all the time. Instead of whining and moaning, we should make sure it never happens again. I don't mean to belittle anyone's grief, I just think that a memorial of that scope isn't called for. Do I think we should so *something* to commemorate them? Definitely. But not a bunch of empty floors. Making the place look like a ghost town honors no one.

And do we even need to get into your comment:

If you really want to know why Osama Bin Laden hates the U.S. so much that he wants us all dead at all costs, look at your captialist goverment.

What does that even mean? Should we be more like Osama or something? To paraphrase Jesus, "I know I'm a good man because the devil hates me." (He said something like that, somewhere in the bible...) Just because Osama finds our culture delinquent doesn't mean we should change it. The man comes from one of the most backwards parts of the world.

Edited, 'cause I missed one of your points. You want to TEAR DOWN the remaining buildings in the financial center to build a park? Not only are those buildings someone's property, but they're doing more good for the country than a park would.

(edited by PalpatineW on 30.5.02 1939)


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Tha Puerto Rican
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Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#6 Posted on

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    50 empty floors... in a skyscraper? That's like asking someone to build a 50 story building and leave it empty, just as a memorial. The whole concept of the memorial is overrated. People die, horribly, all the time. Instead of whining and moaning, we should make sure it never happens again. I don't mean to belittle anyone's grief, I just think that a memorial of that scope isn't called for. Do I think we should so *something* to commemorate them? Definitely. But not a bunch of empty floors. Making the place look like a ghost town honors no one.

    And do we even need to get into your comment:

    If you really want to know why Osama Bin Laden hates the U.S. so much that he wants us all dead at all costs, look at your captialist goverment.

    What does that even mean? Should we be more like Osama or something? To paraphrase Jesus, "I know I'm a good man because the devil hates me." (He said something like that, somewhere in the bible...) Just because Osama finds our culture delinquent doesn't mean we should change it. The man comes from one of the most backwards parts of the world.

    Edited, 'cause I missed one of your points. You want to TEAR DOWN the remaining buildings in the financial center to build a park? Not only are those buildings someone's property, but they're doing more good for the country than a park would.

    (edited by PalpatineW on 30.5.02 1939)



What I meant was the U.S. goverment putting military bases in Saudi Arabia 10 years after Dessert Storm in what many Muslims believe is holy land. Let us not forget the sanctions against Iraq which has resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent children. And the fact that the U.S. goverment is trying to create an Empire. Don't believe me? What about the military bases? The bombings? Sanctions? Don't tell me that after 9/11 you believe EVERYTHING the goverment says. Remember, that before 9/11, how everyone knew that our country was controlled by a bunch of stupid rich white bigot old men and at the helm was a stupid rich Texan who didn't even get elected! Now all of a sudden he is a hero? Patrotic bullshit! The U.S. is creating an evil empire and covering it up. And you wonder why the Middle East hates us!



THa Puerto Rican

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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#7 Posted on

    Let us not forget the sanctions against Iraq which has resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent children
You have any proof for that, or is that just something you heard and believed?



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Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#8 Posted on
Yes. Go to ratm.com for links on the subject.



THa Puerto Rican

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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by Tha Puerto Rican
    Yes. Go to ratm.com for links on the subject.


Can you prove that it was a direct result of US sanctions, as opposed to mismanagement from Saddam? Hussein doesn't exactly have a great track record as far as "not shooting and/or gassing his own people." Correlation does not equal cause.

And aren't you sterotyping rich white people here? And, uh... wouldn't that make you a bigot?



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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#10 Posted on
Ok - I'll only mention this because you are young and possibly didn't think about it.

Rage against the Machine is generally not an accepted source for information.

Can you give me facts from a source that isn't:

a) An Iraqi media agency
b) an Anti-America propaganda site
c) run by a musician

I will take BBC News, UN Reports, even Amnesty International on this one... as long as there are verifiable statistics.



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Tha Puerto Rican
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: New York City, USA

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#11 Posted on
Try iraqaction.org, nonviolence.org/vitw/mythsand%20realities3.html, web.amenstry.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/24fe8ccc9d037845802568f200552932?OpenDocument.

How is that for proof?



THa Puerto Rican

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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#12 Posted on
No, see, proof is like this.

Event A happened. Event A had a direct correspondance to Event B happening. Event B caused Effect C.

It's not like this:

Event A happened in time a. Since time a, very bad things have happened. Therefore, event A caused all of them.

Using the logic of the second, I can blame the creation of the state of Israel for the proliferation of AIDS within the homosexual community in San Fransisco in the early 1980s.

I couldn't get your third link to pull up and the first link is a little biased, don't you think?

Also - I am generally suspicious of a site that links to a purchase as the first (your second site does this) as the first thing. Sensationalism sells - you know?

//edit: UNICEF Is quite often quoted as the source of the statistics that these groups are giving out. I went to their site to find the information, and I noticed this:

    The above impacts have been associated with measurable increases in infant and child deaths. Child mortality rates increased under sanctions in Haiti, Yugoslavia and Iraq. In Iraq, under-5 mortality rates had tripled by late 1991, due to the combined influences of sanctions and war. The lack of reliable data, as well as methodological difficulties, have greatly complicated measurement of the precise contribution of sanctions, as compared to other factors, to child morbidity and mortality.

Those other sites didn't bother to mention any of those difficulties in getting data. I would hazard a guess that when I can finally track down where those stats are from, you will see that they are out of context.

(edited by Guru Zim on 30.5.02 1939)

//edit #2

http://www.unicef.org/iraq/situation/sit-north.htm

Read that. It looks like the sites you are looking at are quoting very old stats.

(edited by Guru Zim on 30.5.02 1946)

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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

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#13 Posted on
Regardless of whether or not kids are starving in Iraq because of sanctions or not, Arab fundamentalists do have some legitimate gripes with the cultural imperialism of the U.S. And the fact remains that the US did kill more innocent people in Afghanistan than were killed in the WTC. All talk of "this is war, and things happen in war" is crazy, as the other side could use that very same reasoning. They are at war with the financial and cultural institutions of the US, so innocent bystanders in the headquarters of the US financial zone will be killed in this war. I'm not saying either side is right, but we can't justify our side killing civilians and then hold them to a higher level of civility.



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Since: 14.5.02
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#14 Posted on
PANDAS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!

Well needless to say, they will be rebuilt. I watched a fun little documentary on their building on TLC a few days ago and they had an interview with the guy who basically bought the Towers about a week before they were trashed. "They will be rebuilt. We just have no clue at this stage on what we'll do with it. But I paid billions of dollars for these, and the port authority has informed me that it'll be my decision."


Interesting huh? Anyways, I saw one excellent design where there was still an arangement of buildings in the center, but in the squares where the two towers stood, there were small parks. To me that'd be the most rational approach.


And contrary to popular belief, Rage Against The Machine does spit out a nugget every once in awhile. Reliable and unbiased they may not be, but they have their points. Just like U2 used to. But I digress. Both sides are pissed at each other...and there's really not a whole lot in the form of "talking" being done with Bin Laden. We can hunt him all we damn well want, but maybe we should broadcast some of our own videos in hopes of opening a bridge of communication with him. But rational he's not, so we'll bomb him and let some other psycho take over. The cycle will continue...until SOMEONE finally learns that war on civilians is a proven way of NOT getting your point across.




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Since: 26.3.02
From: Mastic, NY

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#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    Regardless of whether or not kids are starving in Iraq because of sanctions or not, Arab fundamentalists do have some legitimate gripes with the cultural imperialism of the U.S. And the fact remains that the US did kill more innocent people in Afghanistan than were killed in the WTC. All talk of "this is war, and things happen in war" is crazy, as the other side could use that very same reasoning. They are at war with the financial and cultural institutions of the US, so innocent bystanders in the headquarters of the US financial zone will be killed in this war. I'm not saying either side is right, but we can't justify our side killing civilians and then hold them to a higher level of civility.


I'd like to hear more about this so-called "cultural imperialism," which I truly believe to be quite the meaningless catchphrase. My main gripe with it is because I believe culture is a function of population, and is not causal.

In other words, changes in culture happen due to stimuli within said population - culture is not itself a conscious entity, and cannot directly change a society without that society already desiring change in some form or another.

For example, one can link various changes in economy to events such as religious revival, the Renaissance, and the Baby Boom. If we simply assert that cultural changes are caused by an imperialist force, i.e. are only caused by the bleeding of other cultures, we can only come to the conclusion that culture itself is darwinistic in nature - the best culture wins.

I don't agree with that position because I think the use of the term "culture" is broad, and overrated as a sociological tool. Rather, what we define as culture is simply an often unfair amalgamation of distinct trends.



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Since: 6.1.02
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#16 Posted on
Word. ImperialismĘ(forceable control of a foreign populace for the gain of the home country) is bad. Cultural Imperialism is just some bullshit lefties (and I┤m a big lefty) make up so they can equate McDOnalds with imperialiam. People in Saudi Arabia eating Micky D┤s and listening to N┤Sync = not a cause for WWIII.

Moe



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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
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#17 Posted on
I do agree with you all, to an extent. The "Westernization" of the world is more a natural process than many would like to admit, but that doesn't mean that these groups have to like seeing their culture fall apart before their eyes. Is blowing people up an appropriate response? Probably not.

Cultural Imperialism is not the only gripe these people have with the US, though. For years, we've been supporting corrupt regimes in that region of the world. Does any of this justify mass killing? No, but that's irrelevant as it's happened. My main point was that we can't justify killing civilians without justifying their actions at the same time.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    I do agree with you all, to an extent. The "Westernization" of the world is more a natural process than many would like to admit, but that doesn't mean that these groups have to like seeing their culture fall apart before their eyes. Is blowing people up an appropriate response? Probably not.

    Cultural Imperialism is not the only gripe these people have with the US, though. For years, we've been supporting corrupt regimes in that region of the world. Does any of this justify mass killing? No, but that's irrelevant as it's happened. My main point was that we can't justify killing civilians without justifying their actions at the same time.



Yes we can. We're killing civilians to (hopefully) avoid any more American deaths. They're killing civilians to avoid anymore McDonald's.

Also, I'm sure *some* people don't mind Mid-East culture collapsing. Women, for example.



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Since: 23.1.02
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#19 Posted on
"Yes we can. We're killing civilians to (hopefully) avoid any more American deaths. They're killing civilians to avoid anymore McDonald's."



Flip that on its ear, you're telling me that we're killing civilians so that we can continue to put McDonald's in the Middle East. Why don't we just stop forcing McDonald's on them so they won't kill us in the first place?

-Jag

(edited by Jaguar on 31.5.02 1418)


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Since: 26.3.02
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#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jaguar
    "Yes we can. We're killing civilians to (hopefully) avoid any more American deaths. They're killing civilians to avoid anymore McDonald's."



    Flip that on its ear, you're telling me that we're killing civilians so that we can continue to put McDonald's in the Middle East. Why don't we just stop forcing McDonald's on them so they won't kill us in the first place?

    -Jag

    (edited by Jaguar on 31.5.02 1418)



Because LORD KNOWS McDonald's is forced upon the world...that's why it does such poor international business. Oh wait, it doesn't. Know why? There's a demand for the product.

Here's an example:

Cheeseburgers are not kosher. Orthodox Jews in Israel do not want McDonald's to serve cheeseburgers. Secular Jews in Israel like and purchase cheeseburgers.

Question: Do McDonald's in Israel sell cheeseburgers?



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