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The W - Pro Wrestling - Should the brand split end? (Page 2)
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BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
I don't know that brand-exclusive PPVs are really a problem in theory, though maybe in application.

There were a couple glaring problems when they were doing joint shows every month. First, it meant that they were running through PPV calibre feuds way too quickly, and the matches were going on with about two weeks of build each. More than a few people were heard calling for a return to the ways of yesterday, when you'd get two months of hype before the big showdown at SummerSlam because the matches felt like big events. The split PPVs are a step in that direction.

The second problem is that, with only 3-4 matches per brand per PPV, you'd have a handful of guys getting PPV spots every month and nothing for everybody else. The same as the brand split itself creates opportunity, split brand PPVs further that. When both rosters were on the PPV it meant that half of your show each week was essentially irrelevant because it wasn't leading to anything big. You'd have your PPV programs, and the rest was basically time filler. In effect, it gives guys who are hovering around the middle of the pack in the company as a whole a purpose for being on TV, and thus a reason for people to care about them. Whether people go for the reason you give them is always up in the air, but at the very least it's better from basically being branded as time filler between Hunter's segment and Benoit's segment.

In a Bad Blood perspective, consider this: they can afford to use a PPV slot on Benoit/Edge v. Frenchies. This makes the Frenchies look good (better than they had been, at the very least) and it will no doubt be used to further the build of Benoit v. Edge. On a joint PPV, they couldn't afford to do this, but I think it's an interesting point of the show.

Again, the problem is in the execution, not the idea. I think it's easy to make this argument right now because SD is so shallow and Judgment Day was crap. Look at Backlash, though. That card had:

Ric Flair vs. Shelton Benjamin
Tajiri vs. Coach
Chris Jericho vs. Christian/Trish
Victoria vs. Lita
Randy Orton vs. Cactus Jack
Frenchies vs. Hurricane/Rosey
Edge vs. Kane
Chris Benoit vs. HBK vs. HHH

Now, considering that the tag match was thrown in as filler to let the crowd recover from the hardcore match, what do you cut from that show? Tajiri/Coach, sure. But if you consider that the womens title is secure because it was getting regular play even on joint shows, you've still got six legitimate PPV matches. Even during the peak times there were one or two time filler matches during most eight-match PPV events. Everything isn't perfect.

This month you've got seven matches. Some will be good, some will be bad, but there's a reason for all of them to be on the card and I think given the storylines they all deserve a spot on the show (save for the womens title, which I'm conceding will be there despite being a waste of time). Raw can stand on it's own now; Smackdown struggles.

If the split itself gets fixed, single brand PPVs will work for both sides.



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mss018
Longanisa








Since: 29.2.04
From: NH

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.44
    Originally posted by asteroidboy
      Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
      SD can become entertaining again if they'd only let it. Loosen up the reigns a bit, let some different styles be incorporated, and truly make it an alternative to Raw.




    Just watch Velocity and you'll see guys like Rey or Noble have very solid matches. But for whatever reason, quality is not a priority on the main show.


I agree with you 100% there.
i'd rather watch Velocity than Smackdown, sure, half the show is recaps and there is little/no storyline involvement, but the match quality is better.
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 1 day
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.18
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    In a Bad Blood perspective, consider this: they can afford to use a PPV slot on Benoit/Edge v. Frenchies. This makes the Frenchies look good (better than they had been, at the very least) and it will no doubt be used to further the build of Benoit v. Edge.


What build of Benoit vs. Edge? Anyways, I think the problem with putting guys like La Resistance on a PPV month after month (or any other 'failure' of a gimmick) is that is weakens the quality of the product you're putting out. It's like why ECW always did the Bingo Hall. It's better to fill up a 2000 seat arena, then to have people watching see a 12'000 seat arena only half full. Just because we CAN add matches to a PPV doesn't mean that those matches don't count against the actual quality of the PPV.



    Look at Backlash, though. That card had:

    Ric Flair vs. Shelton Benjamin
    Tajiri vs. Coach
    Chris Jericho vs. Christian/Trish
    Victoria vs. Lita
    Randy Orton vs. Cactus Jack
    Frenchies vs. Hurricane/Rosey
    Edge vs. Kane
    Chris Benoit vs. HBK vs. HHH

    Now, considering that the tag match was thrown in as filler to let the crowd recover from the hardcore match, what do you cut from that show? Tajiri/Coach, sure. But if you consider that the womens title is secure because it was getting regular play even on joint shows, you've still got six legitimate PPV matches.


Okay, we cut Tajira/Coach, and we can also cut Flair/Shelton (as weird as it is to say "cut Flair") because that was 100% a RAW match. La Resistance/Hurricane and Rosie is a Heat "Free For All" match. There! We've cleared out 3 matches that'll let us put in the three good ones from Judgement Day. After that, we've got a pretty damned good PPV.

We could always hold matches over for another PPV by doing the always LOVED on the net "PPV Run-In" to set the match up for next month. Orton/Jack could have finished months ago if they didn't need to drag it out ONLY to fill out PPVs like this, so that leaves Orton free to interfere with Edge's return match against Kane and gives them each something to do after the show.

I think the biggest thing is that one show (or both) will always suck because McMahon has no reason at all to care right now. When WCW was competiting with him, he pushed for 100% out of all of the employees, and he probably got 90%. Now that he's only pushing for 60%, he's getting 30%, and we're having to watch it. My biggest complaint about the WWE right now (and whether or not they re-join or not) is that despite what most posters seem to be worried about should their side of the argument lose is that things don't HAVE to suck in either scenario, they're just allowed to.

The best thing for *US* is obviously to end the split, and yes, have a couple big name guys go to TNA or whatever to cause some competition. The best thing for *McMahon* is to keep his strangle-hold over the industry by splitting the shows 8 more times if necessary.


Tribal Prophet
The Thrill
Banger








Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

Since last post: 7 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25

    Originally posted by Snookum
    I seem to recall last year when Heyman was getting heavily involved in Smackdown - and RAW was going through its worse time - that one of the McMahons (it may have been Steph, Vince of both) the Smackdown creative people that they did NOT want competition to be created between the two brands when it came to the writers and bookers.


Then why the hell did they have the Red Shirts vs. Blue Shirts brawl on RAW earlier this year? Hell, I thought they were pulling the trigger on an actual RAW vs. SmackDown! feud...and by next week, it was forgotten. Very WCW-ish.



    Originally posted by Snookum
    I get the impression that there is a lot of "stop/go" thinking going on...you make a big deal about HHH going to Smackdown, but then don't follow it up in the storyline(s) of the programs.
    Allow the shows to REALLY compete against each other and I think you would have both shows excel in their own individual ways.


Too bad they already blew that opportunity (see above.)



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Since: 7.8.02
From: Boston, MA

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
I don't think the brand split is necessarily the issue. The issue is putting out 4 hours of entertaining TV each week. There's just no need for another show anymore. SD! was born during the Attitude era when the product was through the roof. Now, the current demand just isn't there.



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Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3375 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.88
The brand split should stay for the next 100 years. It has done more to help wrestling than hurt it. If you think it sucks, well here is another thing that would suck, no Eddie as champion, Cena would never gotten over, because he would never have seen the neccessary screen time, no interest what so ever in any of the brand matches at Wrestlemania XX and almost all of the dream matches would be done by now. The WWE would be worse off finacially because the card would have had HHH vs Brock or Brock vs. Taker or Taker vs. HHH for an entire year while Benoit, Kurt and the other champs would have watched from the sidelines.

Smackdown may not be at its peak now, but Raw sucked for almost two years straight from Wresltemania X-8 to Wrestlemania XX. Smackdown is nowhere near where Raw was two years ago or four months ago, so lets stop the cries for combining the brands, because the roster is too big and none of our favorite wrestlers would have see pushes or belts.
LionJeetSingh
Chourico








Since: 3.3.03

Since last post: 3123 days
Last activity: 2950 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.16
One reason for it is that in the past 6 months, Smackdown has lost a lot of main eventers and gotten nothing in return.

Benoit
Edge
Angle
Brock
Show

All of them played a big role at some point. I think Triple H moving to Smackdown would do the show some good. (it would improve RAW as well) :)



Vut Joo Talkin?
Retro86
Cotto








Since: 15.4.04
From: UK

Since last post: 3600 days
Last activity: 2698 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.76
Well, the fact of the matter, everyone knows the order of quality as far as the shows are concerned.

We got:-

RAW
Smackdown!
Heat/Velocity

Ok...

So why don't they just unite, but not unite.

What I mean is that the main eventers, and high-upper carders would all compete on RAW.
The mid carders and lower carders would then compete on Smackdown! with occassional appearances on Heat/Velocity, which I reckon should be pretty much used as it is now.

When we get to a PPV, all the brands become united into one show. No messing about with seperate branded shows.

This would allow for FAR better dealing of feuds, and would allow the storylines to be better explained and developed as time progresses. We wouldn't be forced to watch mid carders like Matt Hardy [sorry V1 fans] and Lita waste valuable air time.
Similarly on Smackdown! perhaps Eddie could come to RAW.

Now the one thing that remains here... what happens with the belts? I would be very keen to see them united once more, as of early-2002.

I think what the WWE needs to do is diversify the shows, at the very least. I think my idea would have your casual fans coming in to see the big names time after time, and the feuds would be better allowed to develop.

You could even have "promotion to RAW/demotion to Smackdown!" angles.

Maybe this is a crap idea, but its just been in my head today, and I thought I would share it. Please don't flame me for daring to be different.

Thanks,
Retro.
OMEGA
Lap cheong








Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

Since last post: 1758 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.64
All that does, though, is totally kills SmackDown. Once fans realize that all the big stars are on RAW while SmackDown is filled with lower-end guys, it goes the Thunder route, where nobody watches it because they know they aren't missing anything.



The answer to WWE's financial problems...

Never 'Wiener of the Day', and is actually quite bitter about it.
Retro86
Cotto








Since: 15.4.04
From: UK

Since last post: 3600 days
Last activity: 2698 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.76
that's why im saying they need to diversify it.

It's like trying to sell the a worse version of the same product.

Smackdown! could be turned into the extreme, high-flying package and RAW the high-card package; saving all that for PPV's.

Just an idea.

Thanks,
Retro.
BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3195 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
    Originally posted by Retro86
    Smackdown! could be turned into the extreme, high-flying package and RAW the high-card package; saving all that for PPV's.


They could probably do that by putting a ten minute cruiser match in the middle of every show and not have to move all the stars to Raw. Problem is, it's like arguing that they should bring in a triceritops and give it a push as a midcard face - it's just not going to happen.

The closest thing we're going to get to "extreme" is the stale Dudley Boyz getting pushed up the card. Sucks, but it's true.



I never thought I'd find a group of people worse than Leafs fans, yet there they are: the Calgary Flames bandwagon. It's just an offside...stop cheering you imbeciles!
Retro86
Cotto








Since: 15.4.04
From: UK

Since last post: 3600 days
Last activity: 2698 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.76
Don't we just know it :(
CHAPLOW
Morcilla








Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

Since last post: 396 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.51
On another thread, someone mentioned that "a heel Goldberg would be a godsend". Now, think about it for a second;
Most people dont want Goldberg back, but I think he would work well as a heel and specially on Smackdown! I would rather see Eddie Guerrero overcome an evil Goldberg than a racist Bradshaw.... The WWE might think I do, but I dont give a shit about Bradshaw.



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the book lists distracting things a responsible driver should not do while driving. This list includes, "Reading"
...*sigh* ...I have given up.

samoflange
Lap cheong








Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 189 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.76
    Originally posted by WhoTookMyHonor?
    On another thread, someone mentioned that "a heel Goldberg would be a godsend". Now, think about it for a second;
    Most people dont want Goldberg back, but I think he would work well as a heel and specially on Smackdown! I would rather see Eddie Guerrero overcome an evil Goldberg than a racist Bradshaw.... The WWE might think I do, but I dont give a shit about Bradshaw.


I'd still rather see Bradshaw. They have about the same amount of wrestling skill, while Bradshaw is light years ahead of Goldberg on the mic. Goldberg knows about 4 words: you're, next, spear, and his favorite, "ass". Goldberg may have that aura around him that causes crowds to go nuts for his boring act, but that has been wearing thin for years. This also completely prevents him from being an effective heel, as he does not have the mic skills or natural charisma to turn a crowd against him. He's a one-trick pony who's time has passed as a main-eventer, and who unfortunately cannot be taken seriously in any role but the main-event. Bradshaw, despite being pushed way too fast, is at least a solid heel character who can do the storyline side of the job as well as anybody.



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JustinShapiro
Scrapple
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1 day
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
Goldberg is a much bigger star, would draw more than 200,000 buys against Eddie Guerrero, and would mean a *lot* more in losing to Eddie. Certain crowds have already shown resentment towards Goldberg so it's not like it'd be hard to just play into that and have him go all the way with it.

Would I personally be more interested in a top level heel push for Booker T or Rob Van Dam? Yes, but they've both been so watered down that neither could immediately step into a top heel spot, whereas Goldberg has been protected and only done two or three jobs. Would Goldberg even be interested? Probably not. Would it be better for Smackdown and Eddie Guerrero than Bradshaw as the #1 heel? Obviously quite a bit.
Retro86
Cotto








Since: 15.4.04
From: UK

Since last post: 3600 days
Last activity: 2698 days
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.74
Put it this way. Goldberg is massive in Europe. I don't give a shit about Bradshaw for sure. I know if it was Goldberg and Eddie or Bradshaw and Eddie, I know who me and my mates would rather watch.

I would rather Goldberg was mega-pushed than HHH to be honest, even if half the time he relies on others to make his matches suceed. He has a special charisma about him that makes him fun to watch, and that's what wrestling is all about.
CHAPLOW
Morcilla








Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

Since last post: 396 days
Last activity: 177 days
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.54
    Originally posted by samoflange


    I'd still rather see Bradshaw. They have about the same amount of wrestling skill, while Bradshaw is light years ahead of Goldberg on the mic. Goldberg knows about 4 words: you're, next, spear, and his favorite, "ass". Goldberg may have that aura around him that causes crowds to go nuts for his boring act, but that has been wearing thin for years. This also completely prevents him from being an effective heel, as he does not have the mic skills or natural charisma to turn a crowd against him. He's a one-trick pony who's time has passed as a main-eventer, and who unfortunately cannot be taken seriously in any role but the main-event. Bradshaw, despite being pushed way too fast, is at least a solid heel character who can do the storyline side of the job as well as anybody.


Can we really blame it on GOLDBERG? He's not a writer; If they gave him more lines then Im sure he could be a bad guy. Cant you easily imagine an overly cocky Goldberg heel against Eddie? (I just know someone's gonna say: "He's already a cocky face!") He could be making fun of Eddie's small stature and legitimacy as a WWE champion in no time.
After this Eddie feud, we would have some awesome feuds on Smackdown...

IMAGINE:
Goldberg vs Undertaker
Goldberg vs Mordecai
Goldbeg vs John Cena (maybe...)

uh... maybe Kenzo Suzuki, I still havent seen enough.

EDIT: Also, I have to agree with Shapiro and Retro (not just cause they agreed with me...); Goldberg is a lot more interesting than Bradshaw and would make more money.

Longtime mega-face turning heel = ratings (a la Hogan)
The only problem; will Goldberg do it?

(edited by WhoTookMyHonor? on 13.6.04 1531)


"When did being an idiot become a team sport?"


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