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The W - Baseball - Should Anyone Even Care Anymore?
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spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 62 days
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#1 Posted on
So as reported on espn.com here, the Yankees basically traded Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver in the sort of trade that would never be allowed in a decent fantasy league. So for me the question is, why should anyone who does not live in New York, Atlanta, Seattle, Los Angeles, or Boston even care about baseball anymore? The Yankees have returned to the 1950's when they used KC as their own personal farm team, only now they use almost all of baseball for that purpose. They make this trade knowing that if in 5 years Ted Lilly is tearing up the AL Central, that they'll be able to trade for him again or buy him in free agency. At this point I'm not even angry about it. I just don't care, and it makes me feel like counting down the days to football season (you know, a healthy sport not on the verge of economic implosion).



Anyone remember the joy of seeing him bash the Undertaker's motorcycle with his sledgemhammer and doing no damage and being all like, "Mjolnir will not break thine cycle? I say thee NAY!" and dumping it off the stage. - Enojado Viento says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.
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Triple Preperation H
Chipolata








Since: 26.3.02
From: Chesapeake VA

Since last post: 2651 days
Last activity: 2647 days
#2 Posted on
I've been both a Braves & Mariner's fan ever since buying a dish in 1991 (one early game/one late game), and I even have hard time caring. This is double-barrelled however. I have doubts that either one of them could beat the Yankees or D-backs because of the pitching factor in the playoffs, if there even IS a playoff.

I really didn't take all of this strike talk too seriously until last weekend (I'm hardheaded I guess) when a few of us were sitting around IHOP with a sports agent and AAA GM. One of them does a radio show on Sunday morning, and after listening to what they had to say I am convinced there will be a walkout. The owner's signed a bad agreement for them last time around and now want to change it. Obviously the player's don't want to give up some of what they have already have. There is no chance with such a strong union.

Anyway, most people know the specifics so I'll skip them, but both the agent and GM are convinced that there will be a stoppage following the games of September 15, exactly two weeks before the end of the season. Apparently that is the Union's plan. They will play the season, make their money, then walk before the playoffs so the owners lose out on the playoff TV revenue unless the owner's sign a new contract, which seems unlikely since THEY can't even agree on what they want. Amazingly, the GM said that many players have it in their current contracts that they'll be paid even if they strike.

So to answer your question, no I don't really care. The last thing I want to do is get my hopes up that the Braves or M's could actually win a WorlD SerieS, only to have any chance at it taken away without stepping on the field. I, too, am counting down the days until football returns. My Skins open up camp 2 weeks from Monday! Whooooo!

I just went back and read this and it doesn't make much since, but it's 5 in the morning, so forgive me.



"I'm a stupid moron with an ugly face and a big butt and my butt smells and... I like to kiss my own butt."--Moe

I am not a has bean! I AM THE BEST WIENER IN ALL THE LAND!
Tom Dean
Bockwurst








Since: 30.8.02
From: New York, NY

Since last post: 3284 days
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#3 Posted on
I don't think this trade really affects much of anything. I don't even know why they got Weaver. They have five good starters already. Seems like Weaver will be moving someone into the bullpen who is 99% as good, if not actually better, than he is.

And, I think getting Mondesi was really a very silly move. They have spent money very poorly on the outfield, in my opinion. If you add up White, VanderWal, and Mondesi, you get one hell of a lot of salary and not much production. They would have been a lot better off getting Bonds or another top free agent/trade acquisition, and playing Spencer or whoever in the other OF spot, than they are with those three guys. (If they DO go get Floyd or something, please remind me I said this. I don't think it will happen.)

As teams like the Mets, Orioles, and (prior to this year) Dodgers have shown, the high payroll only works if you don't give out too many bad big contracts. So if you need the Yankees to screw up for you to be interested in baseball, the day may not be all that far off.



"How YOU Doin'?"
- Tom Dean, weekly at [slash]
"History is being make-ed... somebody here is getting their head completely shaved off"
- David McLane, PPV opening promo

gonna build a giant drill and bore straight into hell releasing ancient demons from their sleep-forever spell so they can walk upon the earth and get recituated and run the diet pill pyramid that MC Pee Pants has created
Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 3567 days
Last activity: 1987 days
#4 Posted on
I've always laughed when baseball claims that cities like Minnesota's and the Montreal's are the problem. I always thought that New York is the problem. They are so short sighted that they don't notice that a league with 6 teams is bad for business. You know the whole a chian is as strong as it's weakest link.

The thing with the Yankees they have signed and traded for busts. But it never bits them in the ass because in a couple of months they just trade for someone else and the bust player sits on the bench.

If you don't live in New York, You HAVE to listen to NY call in sports talk radio. At night time I could catch WFAN at times, and it truly is an an "interesting listen". People calling in saying how upset they are with the Yanks #5 starter and how he's struggling and not able to get pass the 7th inning... And I'm freaking out screaming "Yeah HE'S YOUR #5 STARTER, most #5 starters can't pass the 3rd inning." Hell most teams are lucky if they have 2 or 3 starters that can consistently go deep into games. Same thing when they talk about their #8 or 9 hitter is not putting up monster numbers. Yankee fans live in their own little bubble and have no clue what it's like in 90% of the other cites.



I don't get it, everyone loves rats, but they don't want to drink the rats milk?
SerWolfe
Landjager








Since: 11.1.02
From: st louis

Since last post: 4191 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
How long have the Yankees been buying the wins and the players now? The fans there are so used to it.... now they know they can complain about a player and the yankees may do something about it.

A strike. It almost killed baseball before. It could this time. I have to say that the players and managers are acting very stupid by placing their careers and sport in danger. I dont want a strike. But they have to strike a compromise somewhere.



I've torn myself apart.... and tried to figure out why... but the only answer i was ever given... that really fits..... is the fact... that women are crazy.
kazhayashi81
Potato korv








Since: 17.6.02
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Since last post: 2679 days
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#6 Posted on
Personally, I'm a die hard.. DIE HARD Texas Rangers fan.

I watch to see the stars. The A-Rod's, the Juan Gones, the Pudges, and Raffy too.

But that's not all I watch for.

I watch to see Frank Catalanotto prove he's one of the best contact hitters in baseball.

I watch to see the progress Mike Lamb is making at whatever new position they gave him yesterday due to injuries, and showing why he has the natural skills that any ballplayer would die for. Great utility man.

I watch to see Michael Young develop into one of the best middle infielders in baseball. God, this guy has such great instincts. If he can get the at bats to make it count, he'll be a star.

I watch to see Kevin Mench play better than any Rangers rookie has since Pudge. This guy, is one of the best reasons to watch baseball. He's short, he's fat, and he's not that fast. But he HUSTLES. He makes defensive plays he shouldn't make, he barrels down the basepaths like a ball of fire, and he will be a Franchise player in 5 years.

I watch to see Kenny Rogers have the miracle season at 37, being perhaps the biggest all star snub out there. He's 9-4, 3.24 ERA going into the ASB. That's All Star stats. Definitely.

Hell, I even watch to see John Rocker and Hideki Irabu blow the game when we have a 2 run lead in the 9th. It goes with the territory. The Rangers bullpen has always sucked.

I love baseball, and I love my Rangers, even if they go on a huge losing streak. Because I'm a fan.




"You can save the planet, I'll save your seat"- Uncle Kracker, Better Days
"Confucious say: Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day!"- Crank Yankers
BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4362 days
Last activity: 4362 days
#7 Posted on
You know, I can't believe I'm about to say it, but I WANT there to be a strike. I want it to go on and on until both sides finally realize how flawed the game really is. That's the only way they're ever going to fix it. And yeah, people will say they'll never come back, but at the end of the day, the result of the strike is a fixed product, they'll come back. My main reasoning behind this is simple: I don't care right now, I have no reason to, I'm a Marlins fan. No one goes to their games, I live in Columbus, I can't help that problem. They're gonna trade Floyd, probably to the Yankees, it's sickening really. They need a salary cap, NFL-style. You can argue that it causes to much team-changing, but hell, that happens anyway, even without it. It may be harder to build a dynasty, but it's also harder to suck 10 years in a row. Too many cities are being alienated by teams like the Yankees, who have such an unfair advantage it's not even funny. Sure, this is a capitalist country, but I look at the league as one giant company, not each individual team. They've gotta fix this game, because as it stands now, all I really care about is my fantasy team.



I AM MR. POSITIVITY!


NEGATIVE-DOERS BEWARE!
SerWolfe
Landjager








Since: 11.1.02
From: st louis

Since last post: 4191 days
Last activity: 4191 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I live in St. Louis. Average attendance is over 3 million a year. I dont want there to be a strike. I want people to realize how stupid they are acting and fix the financial part of the game. I want to be able to enjoy my team without a strike just like the rest of cardinal nation would like to.



I've torn myself apart.... and tried to figure out why... but the only answer i was ever given... that really fits..... is the fact... that women are crazy.
Super Shane Spear
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

Since last post: 1569 days
Last activity: 1569 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
It seems to me that if there is no playoffs, then Arizona will remain the UNDISPUTED World Champions for another year.
Go owners, players, owners, players, owners, players, owners, players, owners, players, STRIKE!!!



BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4362 days
Last activity: 4362 days
#10 Posted on
Anything, including a strike, that keeps the Yanks from winning the title is a good thing.

Also, if I had to pick a side, I'm picking the owners. I've sided with the players for too long and things just keep getting worse. Look at the past of baseball's labor, players win EVERY time and the game keeps getting worse and worse. I don't think it's a coincidence.



I AM MR. POSITIVITY!


NEGATIVE-DOERS BEWARE!
mountinman44
Sujuk








Since: 8.5.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 1229 days
Last activity: 1075 days
Y!:
#11 Posted on
We all know that Bud fudges the numbers some, but if the MLBPA believes that all of the teams will survive another stirke, they are dead wrong. Losing 50 jobs to contraction will be child's play compared to what they could lose if there is a prolonged stoppage.



"Young lady, in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson
SerWolfe
Landjager








Since: 11.1.02
From: st louis

Since last post: 4191 days
Last activity: 4191 days
AIM:  
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Honestly i think a prolonged stoppage could come close to devestating baseball. Killing it i dont know. The fans are going to be upset... attendance down.... revenue down.

You have to remember contraction will kill more then 50 jobs... you have stadium personell..... jobs produced by the fans spending.... it would devestate a few lives... a compromise has to be reached somewhere soon.



I've torn myself apart.... and tried to figure out why... but the only answer i was ever given... that really fits..... is the fact... that women are crazy.
edturtle
Linguica








Since: 24.1.02
From: HI in the middle, round on both ends!

Since last post: 4316 days
Last activity: 3592 days
#13 Posted on
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't know anyone actually believed Bud and the Pravda message!!!!

So, the Yanks are responsible for KC's bad management?

The Yanks are responsible for Milwaukee ineptitude? *cough*Bud'sTheProblem*cough*

The Yanks are responsible for Dolan going tight-ass and destroying the Tribe?

The Yanks are responsible for 20+ years of bad management and poor fan relations in Montreal?

The Yanks are responsible for the Angelos family in Baltimore?

And before you moan about baseball baing unfair and the Yanks winning all the time, realize -

- The Lakers and Bulls have dominated basketball for the good part of a decade
- The Rams are a thumb injury and a half of indifferent play in a Super Bowl from being 3-Peat Champs.
- The Red Wings have won 3 of the last 5 NHL championships

Yeah, that revenue sharing/competitve balance in other sports sure does trump baseball, doesn't it?

The only problem in baseball is a Commish in power who does everything to wreck the sport when it's doing the best biz it ever has.




My name is Sue!
How do you do??
Now you gonna die!!
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 1 day
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Y!:
#14 Posted on
We were just kicking this around the other day. The Mariners are 55-33, in first place and have had three of their main guys (Cirillo, Boone, and Cameron) basically play like crap for three months. Our starting pitching has been awesome and our bullpen is ridiculously awesome. Dan Wilson and Carlos Guillen are having fabulous years and John Olerud has stepped up his production to help compensate for the guys who haven't been hitting so far.

However, we were talking about whether we would beat the Yankees in a playoff series and it started down the old path of our pitching is really good and pitching is what wins, blah, blah, blah, etc. The bottom line is if you look at the Mariners lineup and pitching except for a couple of guys in the bullpen and Ichiro there isn't *one* other Mariner you would trade straight-up for with the same position on the Yankees.

1B: Giambi - Olerud
2B: Soriano - Boone
3B: Ventura - Cirillo
SS: Jeter - Guillen
LF: Rondell White (?) - Sierra/McLemore
CF: Williams - Cameron
RF: Mondesi - Ichiro
DH: Johnson - Martinez
SP: Clemens - Garcia
Pettitte - Moyer
Mussina - Piņiero
Wells - Baldwin
CL: Rivera - Sasaki

Now, the Mariners' payroll is around $85 million. The Yankees is around $140 million. Who are the Mariners supposed to get that are huge upgrades over what they have already? Should *they* have tried to get Barry Bonds for $20 million a year? Let's say they did that, now they have $105 million payroll and just the rare chance that Barry Bonds might do something in a series by himself to make a difference? Should they have paid A-Rod Texas money and have a $110 million payroll? They didn't beat the Yankees with A-Rod (or Junior for that matter.)

The Mariners turned a profit of $14 million (or thereabouts) last year. We have the highest attendance in the majors here, hitting 2 million in the last game before the All-Star break. Should they take they $14 million they made and try to get some better players? Maybe they should, but if I were running a business and my closest competitor was #1 and had a $55 million higher operating cost because of the good they were, I don't know if I could hand over that $14 million when I'd still be over $40 million short and probably still going to be #2.

The only team that can be confident going into a series against the Yankees is Arizona, because of Schilling and Johnson. Don't forget that if Kim hadn't blown *two* ninth-inning leads there wouldn't even have been a Game 7 to last year's World Series. But I think teams like Seattle and Atlanta have to feel as good as they can about htis years playoffs because there just isn't that much "difference-making" talent out there to get and what is out there is going to Montreal of all places. Look at last year's A's, almost sweeping the Yankees in the Division Series with a $40 million payroll. Teams just need to figure out how to maximize what they can afford payroll-wise, like Seattle and Atlanta and Oakland have for the past few years, and stop being run by people who are total idiots, like Boston ($26 mil for Jose Awful-man), Kansas City, and Milwaukee have.
Busyman14
Cotechino








Since: 24.2.02
From: Weston, Florida

Since last post: 4400 days
Last activity: 4385 days
#15 Posted on
-Is money the problem? Yes, but it depends if the owner wants to spent it. As Steinbrenner has pointed out, the Twin's owner (i'm blanking out on his name right now) is the richest owner in the game, but he doesn't feel like spending the money to field a world champion team. And keep in mind that despite the Mets bloated payroll, they are currently 12 1/2 games back on the Braves in the N.L. East. Still, money is the root of the problem, and until the game is more balanced, expect to see the usual suspsects in the playoffs every year.

-It sucks to side with Bud-light, the most inept commish MLB has ever had, but he's right. Revenue sharing and salary caps are the solution, but it will never happen as long as Donald Fehr and the player's union have a strangle hold on the game. And I don't think it will change as long as Bud is comish.

-Should you care? If your a baseball fan, you will. Being a Met fan the last two years has been very fustrating, but a few weeks ago I still found myself going crazy. It was Mets/Yankees at Shea in the bottom of the 8th. I went nuts when Mo Vaughn hit what ended up being the game winning HR. I was screaming and yelling with joy at work, and probably had my co-workers and the customers thinking I was nuts. But I didn't care. All i cared was that the Mets beat the hated Yankees.

God, I hope there isn't a strike.

-Alex

spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 62 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#16 Posted on
Ed, your point about other sports and their dynasties, attempting to disparage the idea that revenue sharing is somehow helping them has some flaws in it:

-NBA, the problem with this sport is that because of the small team size (5 on the floor), one or two guys can singlehandedly create a dynasty. No amount of revenue sharing was going to help someone to topple the best player in basketball history (Jordan), or the dumb luck that let the 2 top guys onto the same team now (Shaq, Kobe). However, the fact that the Eastern Conference finals were between the Nets and the Celtics speaks to an ability to upgrade quickly and compete without being mired in decade long slumps (unless you're the Clippers, who are cursed)

-NFL, I watched the Bears go 13-3 last year. I watched the Pats win it all. This year some other team is going to jump up into the elite who no one right now expects. A dynasty lasts for a couple of years at most, as opposed to baseball, where no one expects the Yankees to fall out of contention this decade. Yeah, maybe the Rams might have won, but the point is that they didn't. Teams know any given year they might have a chance at moving up. Think the Royals fans, as an example truly believe they can ever have a chance at a consistent World Series contender?

-Hockey I don't know much about, but I was under the impression the Wings pretty much made a conscious "win now, pay later" choice, which they will be suffering from later on. I admit though I don't know enough about it.

I don't blame the Steinbrenner's of the world for what they're doing. They're just doing their best in the system as it is. The rest of the owners though, and the players need to see that baseball is dying in the eyes of the public. And if they go on strike because a salary cap might cause the average salary to have trouble creeping over 2 Freakin' million a year as quick as they might like, they will get slaughtered for right or wrong in the eyes of the public.

As for poor management, really how much good management does it take to say "we need a good fifth pitcher, let's get Jeff Weaver?" Or "hey, let's go get Jason Giambi, I hear he's a real prospect?" Sure sometimes a team spends poorly, but therein lies the difference between the big and small markets. If a small market team makes one or two big bad decisions, they're handcuffed for years. The Mets can reload and spend just as vigorously again to try and do better next year. If Giambi had flopped, the Yanks could have bought Bonds next year. And if he flopped, they could buy Magglio Ordonez the year after that. That's a managerial luxury only those few teams with bucks have.



Anyone remember the joy of seeing him bash the Undertaker's motorcycle with his sledgemhammer and doing no damage and being all like, "Mjolnir will not break thine cycle? I say thee NAY!" and dumping it off the stage. - Enojado Viento says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.
Triple Preperation H
Chipolata








Since: 26.3.02
From: Chesapeake VA

Since last post: 2651 days
Last activity: 2647 days
#17 Posted on
A salary cap will make the game more "balanced," even if it is un-American. However, revenue sharing will do absolutely nothing but create a welfare state out of the Major Leagues.

The structure is different in the NFL, but the outcomes will be similar. Look at someone like Bidwell and the Arizona Cardinals. He PUBLICLY states that he will never spend a lot of money to put a winning team on the field because he is already guaranteed to be profitable, even if no one shows up at any games and the Birds go 0-16. That is a bad situation.

It is unjustifiable to steal (and that's what it is) from a team like the Yankees to give to the Devil Rays, Expos, or any other team who either can't or don't want to make money. We always talk about baseball being a business. As a business owner, either you turn a profit or go do something else. If I'm selling hamburgers and am losing money, it would be ludicrous of me to demand that McDonald's and Burger King share their revenue with me. Teams already split gate revenue, so the arguement that "without the other teams the Yanks wouldn't make money either" is flawed.

In the past, I have always been against the idea of a salary cap. It just goes against freedom. However, I have been having a change of heart lately. The good of the game demands something be done, and a cap is more feasible and fairer than sharing profits. A system needs to be devised that rewards a team for homegrown talent (thus making the minors worth having), and also rewards players for resigning with their current team (a la the NBA).

Sadly, the situation that presents itself is that the player's union will never agree to a cap, and the owners won't go for revenue sharing.



"I'm a stupid moron with an ugly face and a big butt and my butt smells and... I like to kiss my own butt."--Moe

I am not a has bean! I AM THE BEST WIENER IN ALL THE LAND!
Tom Dean
Bockwurst








Since: 30.8.02
From: New York, NY

Since last post: 3284 days
Last activity: 2653 days
AIM:  
#18 Posted on
Really? I feel the opposite way... I like revenue sharing, but I don't like the salary cap. I don't want TOO much competitive balance. I don't want a football type situation, where there's no chance to build a dynasty, and the teams drop half their good players every offseason because they can't afford them. That's no good either, to me anyway.

If the teams split the television revenues 50/50, the Yankees still make more money than the Twins. But it wouldn't be nearly as disparate as it is now, and it would accurately reflect what both teams are contributing to the game (it takes two teams to put on a game, after all). I think that is the answer.

A big part of the problem here is that a lot of the owners' arguments are really not with the players at all, but with each other. But rather, they're like "well, we need to stay united, so rather than iron out our issues with each other, let's just get money by taking it from players and taxpayers." It's real, real hard to solve a problem when you don't even have the right people on the right sides of the bargaining table.



"How YOU Doin'?"
- Tom Dean, weekly at [slash]
"History is being make-ed... somebody here is getting their head completely shaved off"
- David McLane, PPV opening promo

gonna build a giant drill and bore straight into hell releasing ancient demons from their sleep-forever spell so they can walk upon the earth and get recituated and run the diet pill pyramid that MC Pee Pants has created
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 62 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by Triple Preperation H
    It is unjustifiable to steal (and that's what it is) from a team like the Yankees to give to the Devil Rays, Expos, or any other team who either can't or don't want to make money. We always talk about baseball being a business. As a business owner, either you turn a profit or go do something else. If I'm selling hamburgers and am losing money, it would be ludicrous of me to demand that McDonald's and Burger King share their revenue with me.

I have a problem with this analogy. Burger King and McDonalds are direct competitors. To fit that analogy, the Yankees would have to float a loan to the Jets. The Devil Rays and the rest are all part of the same entity to which the Yankees belong, the umbrella of Major League Baseball. If each team were truly an individual entity, they would not be bound by any of the decisions made by major league baseball. The collective bargaining agreement wouldn't exist, as each team would strike their own agreement with a players union, the way that a union of say for example bookstore workers strikes seperate deals with Borders, Barnes&Noble, Crown, etc. But that's not how it is. The teams are in competition with each other only in the way that each McDonalds tries to make as much as it can. But You would never see one McDonalds actively trying to drive other McDonalds out of business. Because they are all still parts of the larger franchise. That's why sports teams are called franchises after all. Because they are part of a larger entity, not simply independent business units.



Anyone remember the joy of seeing him bash the Undertaker's motorcycle with his sledgemhammer and doing no damage and being all like, "Mjolnir will not break thine cycle? I say thee NAY!" and dumping it off the stage. - Enojado Viento says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 6 hours
AIM:  
#20 Posted on
Also, you can't have the Yankees if they don't have opponents. I think that is the point.

In a system that needs two teams to exist, no one is going to watch if it is guaranteed that team A will always beat team B because of it's economic advantage.

Unless you are the Harlem Globetrotters.



Your a retarted looser.
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