Seriously. The minute ECW goes out of business in 2001, WWF picks him up and puts him in a major angle. Then after a while, they take him away from wrestling all the time but instead of releasing him, they give him an office job as a talent recruiter/liaison to the indies/whatever. Then ECW starts up again and he gets pushed regularly on the show for three and a half years, give him a contract extension and even a run as champ. Then he quits, OK, fair enough, he's banged up and maybe he wants to retire. So he gets probably the third-nicest sendoff in company history.
So then he shows up to some indies — well, that's fine, he probably didn't want to keep the WWE schedule but wanted to help out some indie dudes. Why not. Then he shows up on TNA — OK, kinda weird given how nicely it seems he was treated by WWE, but he has a lot of friends there, who knows. But to go on national TV and say that Vince McMahon sucks when all Vince seemingly ever did to Tommy was give him a job long before most people ever expected him to is really pretty lame.
Tommy's beef was in all likelihood exactly as he said when he gave his speech in TNA last week. It was all about the WWE version of ECW. It requires understanding how real ECW was to its core fans and especially to the talent that was part of that locker room. This goes double for the ones who really built that promotion, Dreamer, Taz, Terry Funk, Raven, RVD, Shane Douglas. Those guys and the girls like Francine and Dawn Marie. ECW was special to them. Without it, many of them would never have had careers in wrestling at all. I mean, I have friends who quit watching wrestling altogether because of how much they hated Vince McMahon's version of ECW. Imagine how the wrestlers felt. It's as Tommy said: he watched many of his friends get hired in 2006 with a promise of resurrecting something they made special and then the promise was immediately rescinded and they were all fired one by one. I agree Tommy was taken care of very well by WWE, considering, but ECW is real to him, dammit. So I get it. I'm not interested in what Tommy is peddling today, myself. One Night Stand 2006 was the last gasp of ECW as far as I'm concerned and I'm fine with that memory of RVD beating Cena and holding aloft the WWE and ECW Titles. But I understand.
So if this show is supposed to be a last hurrah for ECW, a chance for that group to go out the way way they feel they should have... I guess Dixie Carter should do like Paul Heymen and not pay any of them.
I totally agree with Alby. Vince Mc Mahon ruined ECW? By what? By putting the title on Dreamer? Well, maybe.
How can the promoter who's paying his employees good money for many years be the bad mf in this case, while Paul Heyman, who couldn't pay anybody on a regular basis, is seen as the second coming of Jesus Christ?
Vince has done some good and bad with the product. Invasion comes to mind as his first mis-step with using the product. The ECW was a fluke. He had all the right people under contract to do the DVD, everyone was more then willing to be upfront about it and to some extent when its not dealing with the WWE product or at least current WWE product, Vince gives people an open mic. The DVD sold more then any other WWE DVD including the Wrestlemania sets. He saw the sales and decided to cash in more with the PPV and eventually the show. Say what you want about Vince, but if he sees profit he will go after it with gusto. RVD did more to screw up ECW with his drug bust, but still Vince telling past stars they will get this and that if they join as well as not giving Heyman full control of ECW was where it all fell apart in Tommy's mind as well as toning everything down to fit in the WWE PG era.
My problem with ECW was it was used more like a syndicated OVW then ECW. It was good for a few months, but when you put the belt on the Big Show and then start getting progressively worse champions or champions that don't fit the bill of ECW that is where Tommy is coming from. If it was named something other then ECW would anyone watch it? NXT lead to one pop in the ratings and not much else which explains why they are getting canned in two months to make way for Smackdown. Here is the other point I think is in the ether. Vince doesn't want anything to be bigger then Raw. If ECW was allowed to be the wild crazy kid, it might actually draw more people in which as a businessman that is what he wants, yet as someone with an ego maybe not. If its a small success, good if not then well its a tax write off. Smackdown always gets raped in the draft for Raw and when Smackdown starts getting good like the Smackdown six under Heyman, someone is either shown the door or sent to Raw. Raw is Vince's first born baby and he wants to keep that way. So, I don't think they put the best talent or maybe I should say the most over talent on Smackdown or ECW or even NXT. They put two or three big stars and a number of upper mid-card guys on Smackdown then go from there. Hell, Rey is the face of Smackdown with a Taker, who barely works a full year anymore or even half a year. Everyone else is mid-card level expect for maybe Punk and Show.
Heyman as a businessman is terrible and even ECW originals agree with that. Heyman as a writer and promoter is amazing. Don't even use ECW as an example, look what he did with Smackdown while he was there. That show was must watch TV and was far superior to Raw in almost every way. They also got good ratings as well. Then when he is gone, the show went back to being the Brock Lesnar/Kurt show while everyone else was left in the background. So, he did right by Vince and I actually like his commentary since it seemed to actually motivate JR which Lawler stopped doing after awhile.
The WWECW was cursed. Just as it started, champ RVD and Sabu were busted, and RVD dropped the belt to Big Show. Heyman was gone soon after. Angle quit in a huff. Then Benoit was gone. The WWE put big names and angles into launching ECW -- RVD beat Edge AND Cena to take the WWE title to ECW! -- and it couldn't keep any momentum. I thought they did well with the new guys: Punk, Knox, Thorn, etc. But I didn't enjoy seeing Ballz and Guido die every week to put them over.
If there was any WWECW moment that reminded me of the original, it was Hardcore Holly slicing open his back on a table spot and continuing the match. That gave his career a nice lift with the fans. They appreciated the effort.
I wonder if Dreamer/ECW are talking about Vince or if they're trying to make their own money off the Mister McMahon character. If I remember right, the WWE ended that character at this year's WrestleMania.
(edited by Matt Tracker on 28.7.10 0706) "To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Originally posted by Matt Tracker I wonder if Dreamer/ECW are talking about Vince or if they're trying to make their own money of the Mister McMahon character. If I remember right, the WWE ended that character at this year's WrestleMania.
I hoped that was true, but then who was that guy swaggering out to the ring a few weeks ago to get beat down by Nexus? I think they even called him "Mr. McMahon".
Vince tried to cash in on the ECW name. It was obvious from the first episode that it was not the original ECW. Most people didn't care for the direction they went in, and realized the ECW we loved, was truly gone. Vince did sully the ECW name for business purposes, and I can see why some true ECW originals would be pissed.
That being said, CRZ is right, Tommy is just working. There may be some truth to what he says, but the guy is just selling the story and trying to sell PPVs.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
And what in god's name should Vince have done instead? Would you guys (or Tommy Dreamer for that matter) have liked to see Tommy Dreamer vs. Raven and RVD vs. Jerry Lynn - 15 fn years after their prime - wrestle again and again and again each and every week? Yeah, that would have been awesome. I can totally see the ratings now! ECW is so dead, it's not even funny anymore. Just stop talking about it. It's a disgrace what Tommy, Raven and especially Mick Foley are doing right now in TNA. The same goes for Hogan and Flair, but these two at least don't pretend to be different or edgy or whatever these ECW guys think they are and act as special attractions.
Why couldn't TNA just copy the Nexus angle and push 7 young guys instead of these has beens?
If TNA did that, then people will bitch its a complete rip-off of what WWE is doing and they would be right. Same way they are ripping off One Night Stand and people rightfully tag them for that now. Also, I don't understand why people equate young with being good or worthy. I am still not sold on all the members of Nexus and maybe a month from now we are talking about how they looked like glorified jobbers sans Wade and Slater in the SummerSlam match. Nexus is an interesting stable, I will give the WWE that, but Danielson and Wade were primed to be the real threats and now its down to Wade. Wade has done a good job of taking the reigns, but compared to what they are up against, the Raw infighting is the only chance they have had winning. Regardless, Nexus has nothing to do with Tommy.
All Vince had to do was put on a show that was like ECW. I am not saying using every has been that walked through the door, but enough of them. RVD did blow it for the ECW alumini, no question with the drug bust. Yet, there were better guys to take that title like Rey or Jericho to keep it in the family. Big Show was the signal that ECW of old was dead and WWECW was moving forward. The show was more OVW then ECW anyway. Fans wanted some main event talent with the risky matches and storylines. Instead, they got new blood vs. old school which was a good storyline, too bad most of the new blood as unemployed as the old guys. And that was really the last good storyline they did with the alumni. ECW was cheaply made, but it added to the atmosphere of the show, WWECW was cheaply done and added nothing. Hogan and Flair have transformed themselves many times over especially Hogan's heel turn and Flair as the wrestling ambassador during his last few runs. Flair was already edgy back in the day and still can cut a great edgy promo. Hogan's heel turn was all about being edgy and it brought WCW a shit ton of money. The ECW aren't disgracing themselves as long as they can put on good matches which in the right environment, I am sure they can.
Originally posted by lotjxIf TNA did that, then people will bitch its a complete rip-off of what WWE is doing and they would be right.
Yes, but TNA is ripping off what the WWE did a decade ago which isn't fresh at all and people are still bitching because it's stupid.
This ECW crap is a huge fucking free fall back for TNA. The past couple of months have been really good, and they're killing all the momentum they had going for them with this shit.
I wanna see the MCMGs and Beer Money, I wanna see AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Desmond Wolfe, Matt Morgan... I wanna see the guys I tune in to watch every week, not a bunch of garbage wrestlers who are all 20 years past their prime.
PS: Yeah, I also tune in for Kurt Angle, Jeff Jarrett, Sting, Kevin Nash, Ric Flair, HOGAN even; and I know they're all old as well, but they're already there and have a REASON to be there. They're not just showing up and crying cause they got the shaft from another company. Fuck man, ECE has absolutely NOTHING to do with ECW so why the fuck are they even on my tv? It's just retarded.
Just watched Barely Legal on WWE Classics as a precursor to this post so here goes:
As much as I hate to say this...ECW was a one trick pony that shouldve taken a bullet a decade ago. Some of the stories were compelling, but the matches were spot-fests with no story whatsoever.
The hardcore stuff got old VERY quickly and as I watched I thought to myself how I watched this back then. Good for Lance Storm for not swinging the chair into RVD's unprotected head, and screw those fans that booed him for it.
Sure they were innovative in bringing the technical wrestlers and letting them do their thing, but now looking back, it really was more like a car accident on the side of the road than anything relevant.
ECW got attention for the buckets of blood first and the stories and athletes second. Thats why they never made it, once you got past the spectacle there was no substance.
Credit Paul for getting the most out of the workers and credit the workers for giving more than they should have. Im sure it took years off of their lives to satisfy the morons chanting "Show Your Tits" at ringside.
What's sad is that this ECW PPV will draw more buys than the TNA one's before it, i read somewhere that the last PPV did 9000 buys so thats not really saying much.
I just hope this doesnt lead to guys like AJ and Beer Money and Wolfe having to juice and take chairshots to try and pop a rating.
ECW died a long, long time ago...we should be celebrating their effort, not trying to resurrect a product that was`on its last leg almost 6 years ago.
Tommy should be teaching the next generation how to sell a story like the feud he and Raven had, not taking PPV time from guys that will be relevant for the next 10 years.
I think a certain equilibrium should be met: let's have some cartoonish wrestlers in the lower and midcard, often for kids who like to watch, and for folks to laugh at; and save the serious non-comedic wrestling for main events.