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The W - Current Events & Politics - Security at the expense of freedom and liberty? (Page 2)
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vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3035 days
Last activity: 249 days
#21 Posted on

    Originally posted by CRZ
    If you can't use common sense to see the difference between your "Person X" and Yaser Esam Hamdi, then I'M scared of YOU.

    Comrades, eventually one has to drop the cynicism and hold fast to the belief that at the core of the system reside Americans who are people of good conscience acting in the best interests of the nation. Life is too short and stress-filled as it is to make assumptions otherwise.



Hamdi is a US citizen. My "common sense" tells me that that citizenship and its inherent rights OVERRIDE political games and "he might pass on secret messages BOO SCARY" concerns. Presumption of innocence is one of the bedrock principles of this nation, and one of the things that DOES set America apart from many other nations of the world as a good example. When they take that away, and take away trial by jury, and take away right to counsel, and take away ALL F'ING ACCOUNTABILITY for the imprisoning authorities, THAT'S not America any more. We're supposed to be better than this, regardless of the circumstances.

I believe that at the core of this NATION, there are many millions of Americans who are people of good conscience acting in the best interests of the nation. I believe that there are many millions who believe in their system, believe that their elected representatives truly represent their opinions, rights and needs, and believe that our judiciary lets the law and Constitution speak for themselves without bias (left OR right).

But when "enemy combatants" simply vanish without recourse and nobody says Boo about it, I find it much harder to believe in those things, because it's hard to argue with empirical evidence.





"No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is _moral, sane and wholesome_ than our current crop of _Modern Americans_."
-- Frank Zappa
BoromirMark
Potato korv








Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

Since last post: 274 days
Last activity: 274 days
AIM:  
#22 Posted on
Three posts to argue against, and so little time.


    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    Do people still understand the fact that the reason everyone keeps saying this is the greatest country on the planet *isn't* because of that swell looking flag you have hanging off the back of your SUV, but because of the freedoms that are guaranteed to EVERYONE in this fucking country? Why do I feel like the dissenters are the only real patriots left?


Because you're...I dunno...LIBERAL?! Yeah that's it. No, no, not just a liberal but a thick-headed one at that. How DARE you even question my patriotism. That's something I never do, even to backstabbing liberals who deserve it, because it's the lowest comment of the low. Congratulations on throwing shit instead of making arguments, my friend. For the last time, "freedoms" is the friggin over-exaggerated form of "rights" that you people use in your attempts to make the ACLU seem like it has a purpose aside from political scheming. Those "rights" are granted to us by the government, at it's will, a government that WE AS A PEOPLE put into place. In order for there to be a country, a government, people, and RIGHTS in the first place, we must be defended. We must be safe. And we MUST be alive. Without any kind of adequate security measures, poof. Just call us "Free Game", because that's what we will be to everyone who wants a big ol' chunk of our land. It's not like friggin 15 seconds of your time to participate in a frisk or bag search is going to cripple your freedom, for chrissake.

"Hamdi is a US citizen. My "common sense" tells me that that citizenship and its inherent rights OVERRIDE political games and "he might pass on secret messages BOO SCARY" concerns. Presumption of innocence is one of the bedrock principles of this nation, and one of the things that DOES set America apart from many other nations of the world as a good example. When they take that away, and take away trial by jury, and take away right to counsel, and take away ALL F'ING ACCOUNTABILITY for the imprisoning authorities, THAT'S not America any more. We're supposed to be better than this, regardless of the circumstances."

Then why, oh why, must labor unions turn themselves into nothing more that political agenda groups? The same goes for the ACLU, PETA, the World Wildlife Fund, NOW (National Orginazation for Women), and the NAACP. They've abandoned any common sense, for the people and their rights platforms LONG AGO. They now just work for the political agenda of whatever whacked-out liberal and/or minority is heading them. Presumption of innocence is indeed a bedrock principle of this nation, but it is nothing more than that at this point. A principle. When have people believed in principles nowadays? We've got, lesse, raves...rampant drug useage...grassroots support for the Green party and said drug useage....various piercings, hair dyings, the end of chivalry, SUVs insisting that driving on asphalt is "off-road"....where's the principles? When the people around me, and the people in the government, start acting like real human beings, with principles and morals, then we can talk about this as a real argument. For now, if we aren't alive and well to do so, then the whole point is moot, isn't it? That's what'll happen if selective measures are not taken.

Bucsfan, I believe I rebutted your post in there as well. ::Wipes his brow, panting:: Whew that was work. Where's my spaghetti?

Gavintzu
Summer sausage








Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

Since last post: 2868 days
Last activity: 2868 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Boromirmark -- that was the most incoherent argument I have read in some time. What exactly were you trying to say?

Shouting "Liberal!" when someone presents you with an argument is an admission that you have nothing to reply with. By doing so you lost the argument right off the bat.

Special interest groups like PETA and NOW and labour unions are not the U.S. government, and are definitely not the U.S. justice system. Americans have the right to join legal political groups. These groups may or may not have "common sense". But that is irrelevant when they don't have the power of the justice system behind them. When the government is allowed to trample constitutionally protected rights, that constitution is no longer worth the paper it is written on.

George Orwell wasn't trying to create a cliche when he wrote 1984, he was warning about real tendencies in politics in the 20th century. Even in America. Doublespeak and Doublethought are alive and well. Even in America.



Let me put you in the picture, let me show you what I mean;
The Messiah is my sister, ain't no king man, she's my queen.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 201 days
Last activity: 2 days
#24 Posted on
When the people around me, and the people in the government, start acting like real human beings, with principles and morals, then we can talk about this as a real argument.

So you're saying that because there are "... raves... rampant drug useage...grassroots support for the Green party and said drug useage....various piercings, hair dyings, the end of chivalry, SUVs insisting that driving on asphalt is "off-road" ..." that we should no longer care if our government (which is put in power by US, The Citizens of the United States) violates our rights as citizens? Where's the logic in that? Do you really believe that just because some things in the world are fucked up, that everything should be fucked up?

-Jag

(edited by Jaguar on 16.7.02 2116)


"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 2990 days
Last activity: 2986 days
#25 Posted on
I will admit that I haven't read every post in this thread, but what do Labor unions and PETA and whatnot have to do with anything?



ELECTRIC BLOOD - Get the "F" Out! part 2
>BUY RPGs FROM ME!! PLEASE!

Weekly Visitor
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 14 days
AIM:  
#26 Posted on

    Originally posted by BoromirMark
    Three posts to argue against, and so little time.


      Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
      Do people still understand the fact that the reason everyone keeps saying this is the greatest country on the planet *isn't* because of that swell looking flag you have hanging off the back of your SUV, but because of the freedoms that are guaranteed to EVERYONE in this fucking country? Why do I feel like the dissenters are the only real patriots left?


    Because you're...I dunno...LIBERAL?! Yeah that's it. No, no, not just a liberal but a thick-headed one at that. How DARE you even question my patriotism. That's something I never do, even to backstabbing liberals who deserve it, because it's the lowest comment of the low. Congratulations on throwing shit instead of making arguments, my friend. For the last time, "freedoms" is the friggin over-exaggerated form of "rights" that you people use in your attempts to make the ACLU seem like it has a purpose aside from political scheming. Those "rights" are granted to us by the government, at it's will, a government that WE AS A PEOPLE put into place. In order for there to be a country, a government, people, and RIGHTS in the first place, we must be defended. We must be safe. And we MUST be alive. Without any kind of adequate security measures, poof. Just call us "Free Game", because that's what we will be to everyone who wants a big ol' chunk of our land. It's not like friggin 15 seconds of your time to participate in a frisk or bag search is going to cripple your freedom, for chrissake.



That's how conservatives argue -- they change what you said. I don't recall saying a goddamn thing about random bag searches, and believe it or not, I really don't give a fuck if they specifically go after Muslims at the airport. That's not racial profiling, persay. If we're looking for bombs, we should look at the people who are bombing us.

All I said is that if we find something, and if we found it on an AMERICAN CITIZEN, he should get a fucking TRAIL!

And personal attacks? Fine. It like in that cunt Ann Coulter's book where she accuses liberals of not being able to argue with conservatives and just calling them stupid, and then spending the next 250 pages of bile she calls a fucking book calling liberals stupid.

You know what, when someone is against the very principles of my fucking country, I do question their fucking patriotism. I do wonder if they know what that flag stands for, as opposed to the fact that it shows that you're "against the terr'ists". Really? Brave position to take. Go watch make up HHH conspiracy theories and shut the fuck up.

I'll say it again: The government arrested an American, refuse to allow him to see a lawyer and refuse to allow him to have a trial. When in the fuck was that America?

It doesn't stop at hanging the fucking flag outside your front fucking door, you ignorant leave-it-to-beaver, anti-choice, anti-education, anti-gay, anti-black trip trip back to the 1950s, you.






"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3035 days
Last activity: 249 days
#27 Posted on
It always amuses me when people throw out the word "LIBERAL!!!" as if it was a thunderous insult.

As if there were one set of hard-core, set-in-stone "Liberal" beliefs and one set of hard-core, set-in-stone "Conservative" beliefs, and everyone has to pick one or the other. No room for agreement, no room for compromise, no room for variance or moderation or independent thought -- you're either with "us" or you're against "us," and if you're one of "them" you're somehow less than a True and Patriotic American.

As if there were one set of Morals and Values and Principles and Standards of Behavior that every person in this country should be held accountable to, regardless of their religious and political beliefs (or lack thereof).

As if the insulter has reduced the concept of "LIBERALS!" in his mind to a Snidely Whiplash caricature -- a sinister figure in a black cape, twirling the ends of his handlebar mustache, seizing Miss America away from the Kind Good Decent God-Fearing Flag-Waving People, tying her to the railroad tracks and cackling maniacally as the 5:45 to Newark closes in, invariably wrong in whatever he does no matter what the context.

As if applying due process to an American citizen accused of a crime is a bad idea, and that doing so somehow means that THE TERRORISTS WIN and that massive nationwide violence will immediately ensue.

A common refrain of conservatives with regard to laws like the PATRIOT Act is "If you're innocent, you have nothing to fear." Well, let's turn that around. If the government is so sure that this guy is a terrorist and that they have him dead-to-rights guilty, what do _they_ have to fear from allowing him to consult a lawyer, prepare a defense and defend his actions in a court of law? Shouldn't they welcome that, so that they can win a quick and easy case, lock the guy up and declare proudly that the American legal system works?




"No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is _moral, sane and wholesome_ than our current crop of _Modern Americans_."
-- Frank Zappa
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

Since last post: 34 days
Last activity: 4 days
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#28 Posted on

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard

      Originally posted by BoromirMark
      Three posts to argue against, and so little time.


        Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
        Do people still understand the fact that the reason everyone keeps saying this is the greatest country on the planet *isn't* because of that swell looking flag you have hanging off the back of your SUV, but because of the freedoms that are guaranteed to EVERYONE in this fucking country? Why do I feel like the dissenters are the only real patriots left?


      Because you're...I dunno...LIBERAL?! Yeah that's it. No, no, not just a liberal but a thick-headed one at that. How DARE you even question my patriotism. That's something I never do, even to backstabbing liberals who deserve it, because it's the lowest comment of the low. Congratulations on throwing shit instead of making arguments, my friend. For the last time, "freedoms" is the friggin over-exaggerated form of "rights" that you people use in your attempts to make the ACLU seem like it has a purpose aside from political scheming. Those "rights" are granted to us by the government, at it's will, a government that WE AS A PEOPLE put into place. In order for there to be a country, a government, people, and RIGHTS in the first place, we must be defended. We must be safe. And we MUST be alive. Without any kind of adequate security measures, poof. Just call us "Free Game", because that's what we will be to everyone who wants a big ol' chunk of our land. It's not like friggin 15 seconds of your time to participate in a frisk or bag search is going to cripple your freedom, for chrissake.



    That's how conservatives argue -- they change what you said. I don't recall saying a goddamn thing about random bag searches, and believe it or not, I really don't give a fuck if they specifically go after Muslims at the airport. That's not racial profiling, persay. If we're looking for bombs, we should look at the people who are bombing us.

    All I said is that if we find something, and if we found it on an AMERICAN CITIZEN, he should get a fucking TRAIL!

    And personal attacks? Fine. It like in that cunt Ann Coulter's book where she accuses liberals of not being able to argue with conservatives and just calling them stupid, and then spending the next 250 pages of bile she calls a fucking book calling liberals stupid.

    You know what, when someone is against the very principles of my fucking country, I do question their fucking patriotism. I do wonder if they know what that flag stands for, as opposed to the fact that it shows that you're "against the terr'ists". Really? Brave position to take. Go watch make up HHH conspiracy theories and shut the fuck up.

    I'll say it again: The government arrested an American, refuse to allow him to see a lawyer and refuse to allow him to have a trial. When in the fuck was that America?

    It doesn't stop at hanging the fucking flag outside your front fucking door, you ignorant leave-it-to-beaver, anti-choice, anti-education, anti-gay, anti-black trip trip back to the 1950s, you.





(starts chanting)

FU-ZZY! FU-ZZY!

But really, the whole "Operation TIPS" thing I heard about yesterday scares me. If the topic of this thread wasn't enough, now the government's setting up a hotline for civilians to report suspicious activities. Like, if you're a mailman and you see that one of the customers on your route orders a bunch of stuff from the Edge Company, has a gun rack near the window, and oh yeah, has a Koran on the coffee table. At best, this'll result in more false information than is worth the cost of the hotline. At worst, it'll be the Orwellian States of America. Apparently, it's just a matter of formalizing something that's been going on, but this is for untrained, average citizens, not trained investigators. Not to mention racism and prejudice...
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For those who don't remember, this is the asshole who everyone believes is the one who killed Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. This is really great news actually and I hope he pays for what he's done. Here's the story... http://www.cnn.
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