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The W - Current Events & Politics - Security at the expense of freedom and liberty?
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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 74 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - An American-born man who is being held incommunicado on suspicion of taking up arms for the Taliban was blocked by a federal appeals court Friday from consulting with a lawyer.
    A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously overturned a June 11 lower-court ruling that said Yaser Esam Hamdi could meet privately with federal public defenders.

    The appeals court said U.S. District Judge Robert G. Doumar issued his ruling without first giving the government a chance to respond.

    Hamdi, 21, was captured in Afghanistan in November after a prison uprising by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. He was held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, until it was discovered that he was born in Louisiana to Saudi Arabian parents. Since April, he has been held incomunicado at the Norfolk Naval Base as an enemy combatant.

    The appeals court was not swayed by the public defender's argument that Hamdi, as a U.S. citizen, has a constitutional right to legal representation.

    Prosecutors had argued on appeal that Hamdi might pass secret messages to other terrorists through his attorneys. They said he must be held behind bars for reasons of national security and to allow the government to gather intelligence from the war on terrorism from him.

    "We're pleased the court of appeals recognized that these matters have to be approached with great care," said Bryan Sierra, a Justice Department spokesman.

    Larry W. Shelton, an assistant federal public defender, said the defender's office has not decided on its next step.


So I guess the Constitution actually grants "unalienable rights-when the government wants them to be". I understand what they are saying by using the "national security" defense, but by doing that they are assuming the guy is guilty, not just suspected. And that seems to go against "innocent until proven guilty." Any accused criminal can forward information to a lawyer. Granted, maybe not as widespread as an international terrorist, but still the argument would hold no substance in any other criminal case and it doesn't in this one. No matter his nationality or background, this guy has a right to see a lawyer and have a fair trial without being prejudged just like anyone else in this country. But he is being denied both.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
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Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 201 days
Last activity: 2 days
#2 Posted on
Yeah, but you know what's REALLY scary?

I agree with Test.

America sucks.

-Jag

Next thing you know I might even cheer "Go Test go!" at a PPV, or something similar....



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 18 days
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#3 Posted on
Yeah, I've felt really conflicted about that whole angle, too... I mean, I love this country, but right now, it's really hard to defend our leaders.



"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Before we get all doom and gloom, here, the guy IS an enemy combatant. He is also an American citizen. We have different rules for each. Clearly, uh, the issue isn't clear. It's not like we picked this guy out of his apartment in Detroit, though. We captured him IN AFGHANISTAN, so I have to think he was doing something he shouldn't be doing. Like plotting to blow up Americans.



Using a key to gouge expletives on another's vehicle is a sign of trust and friendship.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 74 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Before we get all doom and gloom, here, the guy IS an enemy combatant.


You mean ACCUSED enemy combatant. He was found in Afghanastan, but it hasn't been proven yet that he plotted against America.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 14 days
AIM:  
#6 Posted on
And besides, what about the "dirty bomber"? He was an American citizen, captured in America, without ever actually commiting a crime, who's being held without bail, without access to a lawyer and will not be recieving a trial. The government can do that to anyone they consider a terrorist, thanks to the "patriot" act. And what, pray tell, makes someone a terrorist? Why, having John Ashcroft say you are, of course...

And, by the way, that was a brilliant piece of investigation by our government there, wasn't it? You've got this guy, who allegedly was in contact with Al Queda (and let's assume he really was.) Now, he's planning to build a bomb - he hasn't actually done so, and most accounts say he lacks the intellect to sucessfully do so. Meaning, he's not an immediate threat. Meaning - WATCH THIS GUY UNTIL HE LEADS YOU TO SOMEONE IMPORTANT!

Jeebus, maybe Hogan should've run in 2000...



"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2832 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
So, if we find a guy who hangs out with Al Qaeda and has plans for a dirty bomb in his office, we should... let him go, because he's not (yet) a criminal? Come on, this isn't 1984. Ashcroft isn't pointing the finger of accusation at every other American. From what coverage we've seen, it seems to me that we aren't imprisoning any innocent people. I don't think innocent people hang around with militant Islamic terrorist organizations. Hanging around with Al Qaeda for reasons other than committing terrorist acts is about as likely as reading Swank for the articles. Anyone who consorts with terrorists or plots terrorist acts has surrendered his rights, as far as I'm concerned. America doesn't need to coddle those who wish to destroy her, and us.










Using a key to gouge expletives on another's vehicle is a sign of trust and friendship.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 74 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    So, if we find a guy who hangs out with Al Qaeda and has plans for a dirty bomb in his office, we should... let him go, because he's not (yet) a criminal? Come on, this isn't 1984. Ashcroft isn't pointing the finger of accusation at every other American. From what coverage we've seen, it seems to me that we aren't imprisoning any innocent people. I don't think innocent people hang around with militant Islamic terrorist organizations. Hanging around with Al Qaeda for reasons other than committing terrorist acts is about as likely as reading Swank for the articles. Anyone who consorts with terrorists or plots terrorist acts has surrendered his rights, as far as I'm concerned. America doesn't need to coddle those who wish to destroy her, and us.









You see, that's the problem. You're assuming that because they hang around with certain people they are criminals. The law cannot generalize like that. And you are correct. We shouldn't arrest people who are "not (yet) criminals".

EDIT: One more thing. I'm assuming when you say "coverage" you are referring to the mainstream American media and the American Government. Neither one of those are the most reliable sources if you want a news piece instead of a piece of propaganda.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 13.7.02 0234)


Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 201 days
Last activity: 2 days
#9 Posted on
OlFuzzyBastard was trying to say that he thinks they should've left the dirty bomber under surveillance until A) He actually DID something illegal, or B) Lead them to someone who was higher up on the terrorist food chain. This is pretty standard stuff here, but the guy wasn't even reported that he was planning a "Dirty Bomb" until a month after he was arrested. So either the government has been feeding us a line of bullshit (If Coca-Cola can do it, so can they) or they just grabbed him to say "Look! We caught a terrorist! Trust us!" and only THEN found out that he was planning to build the "Dirty Bomb"

-Jag



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 14 days
AIM:  
#10 Posted on
I don't give a fuck what you're accused of doing. This is the United States of America. If you're accused of a crime, no matter how horrible a crime that is, you get a lawyer and you get a trial. I can't believe I actually have to argue this point with people.



"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1994 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#11 Posted on
Ol Fuzzy, you're arguing the point with the wrong people. Then again, it's best to argue it with us because arguing it with these government agencies will net you one of two results: You get ignored, or you disappear/die mysteriously/"commit suicide" via three gunshotwounds to the back of your head. Welcome to U.S.A. 2000, where our federal government no longer bothers to pretend to obey its own Constitution. That's the reality of the situation now, and that's why not much is going to be said or done about this situation.



"All born equal unless you're Canadian
Then halfway through decay like Uranium
You define what's death-defying
Get the most out of life or at the least die trying
Are you Evil Knievel jumping a train?
Or running with scissors like Frasier Crane?
Have really good times doing really bad things
Cause the show ain't over til the fat lady sings
Like Elton John with his candle in the wind
It's hard to blow out a flame as big as him
But we've all got to Wang Chung with the Grim Reaper
Whether you're Einstein whether you're Beaker
Death is certain so it's definitely worth flirtin'
Don't expect a bright light no just curtains
Life is like a penis most people don't know it
But most people suck so they usually blow it"

From "Take The Long Way Home", by The Bloodhound Gang
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
wait...so if someone hanged around the Nazi's back during WW2, you couldn't accuse him of being a nazi?

i know it is wrong for putting guilt on association, but come on...

heres how i understand how afganastand was working.

Taliban ruled the country, and basically being in afganastand, you had to work for either the Taliban, or one of the anti-taliban forces trying to oust them...

i assume he was w/ the taliban forces

but, of course, i may be wrong




You can't fire a gun in a confined space! What are you tring to do, make us deaf?!"
"Just get out of the chopper."
"What?"
"Get out of the chopper!"
"The crops!?" - Jack Lemmon and James Garner, "My Fellow Americans", and the reason I say "The crops?" instead of "Huh?"
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 201 days
Last activity: 2 days
#13 Posted on
Just because I live in the US doesn't make me a part of the US military, nor does it make me a part of Bush's Cabinet. So hopefully I won't be held by another government just because I an American citizen. But even worse than that is the fact that this guy IS and American citizen. While I don't agree with what the US is doing with people suspected of being terrorists of other nationalities, I think that even Joe American should be outraged that an American Citizen is being held without a trial or counsel or anything. Hell, Timothy McVeigh got a trial, and I bet that if they ever found Eric Rudolph, he would've gotten a trial. So what's the difference here? Is it just because Timmy and Eric were Psychopathic, Terrorist, Average White Americans?

-Jaguar



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 74 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by rikidozan
    wait...so if someone hanged around the Nazi's back during WW2, you couldn't accuse him of being a nazi?


You can accuse anyone of anything you want. But America still has rights guarunteed to the accused, which are going overlooked in this case.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
timmy and eric weren't with forces of a nation that declared war on us

but that argument only works if you accept that the taliban was the government of afganstand....



You can't fire a gun in a confined space! What are you tring to do, make us deaf?!"
"Just get out of the chopper."
"What?"
"Get out of the chopper!"
"The crops!?" - Jack Lemmon and James Garner, "My Fellow Americans", and the reason I say "The crops?" instead of "Huh?"
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3035 days
Last activity: 249 days
#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by PalpatineW

    So, if we find a guy who hangs out with Al Qaeda and has plans for a dirty bomb in his office, we should... let him go, because he's not (yet) a criminal? Come on, this isn't 1984. Ashcroft isn't pointing the finger of accusation at every other American.



But he CAN, and he doesn't seem to believe that there's any reason why he can't, which is entirely the point.

The administration can point their fingers at Person X, say the magic words "enemy combatant" and *POOF!* He'll disappear into custody with no presumption of innocence, no jury trial, no lawyers, no family visits, no contact with the outside world, no Constitutional rights. When will he be released? When the government says so. When will he be allowed to confront his accuser, present his side of the story in a court of law, and exercise his rights as an American citizen? When (no, IF) the government says so. What evidence is there that he is and has done what the government claims? The government's say-so.

Anyone who doesn't find that the least bit objectionable scares the living hell out of me.



"No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is _moral, sane and wholesome_ than our current crop of _Modern Americans_."
-- Frank Zappa
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 18 hours
Last activity: 9 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by vsp
    The administration can point their fingers at Person X, say the magic words "enemy combatant" and *POOF!* He'll disappear into custody with no presumption of innocence, no jury trial, no lawyers, no family visits, no contact with the outside world, no Constitutional rights. When will he be released? When the government says so. When will he be allowed to confront his accuser, present his side of the story in a court of law, and exercise his rights as an American citizen? When (no, IF) the government says so. What evidence is there that he is and has done what the government claims? The government's say-so.

    Anyone who doesn't find that the least bit objectionable scares the living hell out of me.

If you can't use common sense to see the difference between your "Person X" and Yaser Esam Hamdi, then I'M scared of YOU. Extrapolating the general from the specific doesn't always work, especially when doomsday scenarios are presented.

That these three Appeals court judges - *judges*, not "the government" or "the administration" - ultimately validated the decision is good enough for me. If you have no faith in the checks and balances of our government, I can't help you ever be happy with America.

Comrades, eventually one has to drop the cynicism and hold fast to the belief that at the core of the system reside Americans who are people of good conscience acting in the best interests of the nation. Life is too short and stress-filled as it is to make assumptions otherwise.

(Credit: Story quoted in the original thread starter)



©CRZ™
Visit [slash] wrestling
BoromirMark
Potato korv








Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

Since last post: 273 days
Last activity: 273 days
AIM:  
#18 Posted on
Quite simply, yes. Security at the expense of "personal rights" (not freedom, freedom used in this issue is merely hyperbole for those against the security measures) is more than acceptable, because you sure can't have privacy when you're dead or enslaved now can you? Logic, people, not whining.

Edit: Remind me to read the last post in a thread before posting. Kudos to your post, CRZ. People need to have more faith in the government and our system, and stop whining. I'm sure people weren't dancing in the streets when Teapot Dome happened, but guess what? America moved on.

(edited by BoromirMark on 16.7.02 0115)
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 74 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
OK, while it may seem like common sense to have these precautions for (perceived potential) security risks, that is not the issue (to me). If our country was founded on "rights that are guaranteed, unless we think it's too big a risk to give you those rights," there would be no problem (Even that would be questionable, because who's to say what's a risk and what isn't, but I can overlook that for now.). But our county was founded on the principals of (among others) "inalienable rights" and "innocent until proven guilty" and those promises are being broken here. CRZ, you point out that these actions are being supported by our court system, but that doesn't validate it. It just means the courts-which exist for the sole purpose of interpreting the Constitution-are ignoring promises made by the people who founded this nation simply because they feel threatened.

You call it acting in the best interests of the nation. That is only true if they are doing this to convicted criminals, not people who are widely suspected-and, I'll admit, probably guilty-because then it just turns into finger pointing that makes everyone look like a hypocrite. The law cannot differentiate between vsp's "Person X" and this guy, because in the eyes of the law both are innocent right now.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 14 days
AIM:  
#20 Posted on
Do people still understand the fact that the reason everyone keeps saying this is the greatest country on the planet *isn't* because of that swell looking flag you have hanging off the back of your SUV, but because of the freedoms that are guaranteed to EVERYONE in this fucking country? Why do I feel like the dissenters are the only real patriots left?



"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
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