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The W - Current Events & Politics - Salon shows its true colors
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Gary Kamiya Salon's executive editor, basically admits that a lot of people on the left were seriously pulling for the United States to lose this war and for casualties amongst US forces.

Some exerpts:
I have a confession: I have at times, as the war has unfolded, secretly wished for things to go wrong. Wished for the Iraqis to be more nationalistic, to resist longer. Wished for the Arab world to rise up in rage. Wished for all the things we feared would happen. I'm not alone: A number of serious, intelligent, morally sensitive people who oppose the war have told me they have had identical feelings...

Many antiwar commentators have argued that once the war started, even those who oppose it must now wish for the quickest, least bloody victory followed by the maximum possible liberation of the Iraqi people. But there is one argument against this: What if you are convinced that an easy victory will ultimately result in a larger moral negative -- four more years of Bush, for example, with attendant disastrous policies, or the betrayal of the Palestinians to eternal occupation, or more imperialist meddling in the Middle East or elsewhere?...

Wishing for things to go wrong is the logical corollary of the postulate that the better things go for Bush, the worse they will go for America and the rest of the world....





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cranlsn
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Since: 18.3.02
From: Sussex, WI

Since last post: 114 days
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#2 Posted on

I have to at least give them credit for saying out loud what some hypocrites have couched in such insightful terms as, "Ummm...War is bad?".








Ubermonkeys
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Michigan

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#3 Posted on
Gary Kamiya Salon's executive editor, basically admits that a lot of people on the left were seriously pulling for the United States to lose this war and for casualties amongst US forces.

Really? Let's read on.

I'm not alone: A number of serious, intelligent, morally sensitive people who oppose the war have told me they have had identical feelings...

Grimis, that was a HUGE jump on your part. A number of people that ONE GUY knows say they share the same feelings as him, and that constitues "a lot of people on the left"? Come the fuck on.

...a lot of people on the left were seriously pulling for the US to lose this war and for casualties amongst US forces

Yeah, you have got to be fucking kidding me. Do you honestly think...

1. Anybody with half a brain thought we could SOMEHOW lose this war? Seems like the only way this even had a REMOTE chance of happening is if Saddam did have WMD, which most people on the left don't seem to think he had in the first place. (Something we're still waiting on.)

2. If you believe a "lot" (which I'm going to use as a generalization to mean "a good portion of") of people on the left wanted casulaties from the US forces, then that's just idiotic and a terrible assumption on your part.

See, it started out fine. "Salon shows its true colors". Nothing wrong with that, and you're right to jump down this asshole's throat. But then you decided to paint broad generalizations based on what one whack says, and that's just stupid. Also, not even on a political point necessarily, but it kinda adds up when one idiot says something really stupid, and then is all "No, really, other people said so too!" That looks very shady. "There are other idiots, too!"

But there is one argument against this: What if you are convinced that an easy victory will ultimately result in a larger moral negative -- four more years of Bush, for example, with attendant disastrous policies, or the betrayal of the Palestinians to eternal occupation, or more imperialist meddling in the Middle East or elsewhere?...

Wishing for things to go wrong is the logical corollary of the postulate that the better things go for Bush, the worse they will go for America and the rest of the world...


Hey, that TOTALLY makes sense! Because remember how those second four years of his dad's presidency went after HE won that war with Iraq?

Yeah, I think we can agree that this guy is a complete tool, but you need to realize he's not even close to being the entire shed.


EDIT: spellin'

(edited by Ubermonkeys on 18.4.03 1347)

"You have tens of millions of cattle, but they haven't figured out how to put a box on their assholes." -Ralph Nader


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Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#4 Posted on
    Originally posted by Gary Kamiya
    But there is one argument against this: What if you are convinced that an easy victory will ultimately result in a larger moral negative -- four more years of Bush


Sooooooo.... let me get this straight. Bush remaining in power is morally WORSE than Saddaam staying in power? Worse than our soldiers dying in large numbers in a tough war?

It really is crap like that that pisses me off more than anything. I could not STAND Clinton, I think he was by far, one of the worst Presidents we have ever had. But if I had to chose between Clinton and Saddaam Hussein, I would pick Clinton each and every time.

This temper tantrum by some on the left really needs to stop. People like this are coming off as spoiled brat 3 year olds who just had their favorite toy taken away, and now they won't play ANYTHING.

Liberating a nation, stopping torture, rape, and murder by a government, combatting terrorism, attempting to bring peace and stability to the Middle East- oh yeah, BIG moral negative...



(edited by Pool-Boy on 18.4.03 1114)



Still on the Shelf #4
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54


    I could not STAND Clinton, I think he was by far, one of the worst Presidents we have ever had. But if I had to chose between Clinton and Saddaam Hussein, I would pick Clinton each and every time.


Actually, Clinton is looking pretty good right now...

But seriously folks, it's the editor of freaking Salon! Did anyone expect that reasoned a response?




Over 1100 posts and still never a Wiener of the Day!






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redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#6 Posted on

    Originally posted by Ubermonkeys
    Gary Kamiya Salon's executive editor, basically admits that a lot of people on the left were seriously pulling for the United States to lose this war and for casualties amongst US forces.

    Really? Let's read on.

    I'm not alone: A number of serious, intelligent, morally sensitive people who oppose the war have told me they have had identical feelings...

    Grimis, that was a HUGE jump on your part. A number of people that ONE GUY knows say they share the same feelings as him, and that constitues "a lot of people on the left"? Come the fuck on.

    ...a lot of people on the left were seriously pulling for the US to lose this war and for casualties amongst US forces

    Yeah, you have got to be fucking kidding me. Do you honestly think...







    Grimis was taking excerpts from Kamiya's article, where Kamiya was stating many on the left had the identical feelings that it would be beneficial for the U.S. to look bad in Iraq. So, it wasn't a jump on Grimis' part, it would then be a jump on the part of the editor of Salon.





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Ubermonkeys
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Michigan

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#7 Posted on
Hey Sox...

Grimis: Gary Kamiya Salon's executive editor, basically admits that a lot of people on the left were seriously pulling for the United States to lose this war and for casualties amongst US forces.

Salon editor: I'm not alone: A number of serious, intelligent, morally sensitive people who oppose the war have told me they have had identical feelings...


See, Grimis interpretation of the Salon guy saying that "a number of people have told me" is "a lot of people on the left."

The guy said a number of people had told him. How the fuck is the jump being made that "a number of people" who talked to THIS ONE GUY is now "a lot of people on the left" (made by Grimis) and "many on the left" by you?



"You have tens of millions of cattle, but they haven't figured out how to put a box on their assholes." -Ralph Nader


AIN'T NO LYIN

Nate The Snake
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Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#8 Posted on
Why, because the dirty, filthy, pinko leftists are a hive mind of anti-American treasonous seditious COMMIE TERRORIST-HUGGING HIPPIE EVIL.

It's patently obvious.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
MoeGates
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 20 hours
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Jeez guys, you're arguing semantics now.

I mean, has HHH held down "a number" of guys or "a lot" of guys.

The left needs to learn a lesson from the right - being honest about your motivations never pays. Best just to make something up that sounds good, and keep changing it depending on the circumstances.

(edited by MoeGates on 19.4.03 1310)


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asteroidboy
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Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
Adding to what Moe said, I think the left just has no common sense. Epecially the extreme left. That's why they tend to pop off at the mouth more. Plus, the right always has that good PR flak handy to throw up a smokescreen or spin like crazy whenever someone like Pat Robertson fucks up and blames 9/11 on gays.






-- Asteroid Boy


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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    I think the left just has no common sense.

I think this should be my quote :)




asteroidboy
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Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by asteroidboy
      I think the left just has no common sense.

    I think this should be my quote :)



Hey, I'll readily admit to having shiftless dreamers on my side. Now you cop to having fundamentalist zealots. ;)



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

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Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 22 days
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#13 Posted on
Everyone spent so much time catching the fallacy of Grimis saying "a lot of people on the left" that they failed to notice that the "seriously pulling" for US casualities is a load of BS as well. He didn't say that he *wanted* that...he said that sometimes he has that *feeling*. *Sometimes*.

The link you gave doesn't lead to the full article (at least, not anymore) so I don't know what he concludes, but the current link is to a piece with the heading: "Liberation Day: Even those opposed to the war should celebrate a shining moment in the history of freedom -- the fall of Saddam Hussein." Written by the same guy.

Are you going to admit you made a mistake, or do you only accept as "true colors" the things that fit your preconceptions?
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1205 days
Last activity: 1002 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    Hey, I'll readily admit to having shiftless dreamers on my side. Now you cop to having fundamentalist zealots. ;)

Done and done!


    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon

    Are you going to admit you made a mistake, or do you only accept as "true colors" the things that fit your preconceptions?

Wrong about what? About the fact the guy wanted the US to lose? About the fact that he wanted US trops to die? This was all part of the same article. Many anti-war folks wanted Saddam gone. Still, they protested and hoped for the worst like this joker did.




IsaacYankem
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Since: 4.3.03
From: Cybertron

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#15 Posted on
"Many anti-war folks wanted Saddam gone. Still, they protested and hoped for the worst like this joker did."

To coin a phrase, please tell me this is a joke and you are not this ignorant. I never for one second wanted the Iraqi troops to provide stiffer resistance and kill more americans, nor did any of the many anti-war people that I know. I had hoped that the Iraqi military would welcome us as liberators like our leaders predicted but I felt that most likely wasn't going to happen. Oh well, better luck in Syria..



"50 camera shots to the head cannot compare to one heart to heart talk with Steve Blackman expounding the virtues of Quik Lime in the use of disposing of human remains!!" - Al Snow, Raw, July 17, 2000
Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1205 days
Last activity: 1002 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by IsaacYankem
    To coin a phrase, please tell me this is a joke and you are not this ignorant. I never for one second wanted the Iraqi troops to provide stiffer resistance and kill more americans, nor did any of the many anti-war people that I know.

It is amazing how "many" morphs into "every" to suit the point trying to be made...




IsaacYankem
Polska kielbasa








Since: 4.3.03
From: Cybertron

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#17 Posted on
You also used "many war protestors".



"50 camera shots to the head cannot compare to one heart to heart talk with Steve Blackman expounding the virtues of Quik Lime in the use of disposing of human remains!!" - Al Snow, Raw, July 17, 2000
godking
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Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3841 days
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#18 Posted on
Lemme guess - you pulled this off Free Republic!

Because the actual piece reads as follows (boldened sections are those that weren't included in the standard, out-of-context rip)

I have a confession: I have at times, as the war has unfolded, secretly wished for things to go wrong. Wished for the Iraqis to be more nationalistic, to resist longer. Wished for the Arab world to rise up in rage. Wished for all the things we feared would happen. I'm not alone: A number of serious, intelligent, morally sensitive people who oppose the war have told me they have had identical feelings.

Some of this is merely the result of pettiness -- ignoble resentment, partisan hackdom, the desire to be proved right and to prove the likes of Rumsfeld wrong, irritation with the sanitizing, myth-making American media. That part of it I feel guilty about, and disavow. But some of it is something trickier: It's a kind of moral bet-hedging, based on a pessimism not easy to discount, in which one's head and one's heart are at odds.

Many antiwar commentators have argued that once the war started, even those who oppose it must now wish for the quickest, least bloody victory followed by the maximum possible liberation of the Iraqi people. But there is one argument against this: What if you are convinced that an easy victory will ultimately result in a larger moral negative -- four more years of Bush, for example, with attendant disastrous policies, or the betrayal of the Palestinians to eternal occupation, or more imperialist meddling in the Middle East or elsewhere?

Wishing for things to go wrong is the logical corollary of the postulate that the better things go for Bush, the worse they will go for America and the rest of the world. It is based on the belief that every apparent good will turn into its opposite. If this is true, then it would be better for bad things to happen to Bush. But who knows for sure that it is true? Perhaps pro-war leftist Christopher Hitchens was right when he spoke of the "cunning of history" -- perhaps the genius of Historical Progress chose Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz to be its unlikely instruments. Dialectical pessimism is the dirty little secret of the antiwar camp -- dirty because there is something distasteful about wishing for bad outcomes when the future on which those wishes are based is unknown.


And then Kamiya goes on for six paragraphs about how the duty of the Left is to work together with the Right to make sure that Iraq's liberty is true and lasting (and, incidentally, was preceded by an entire page of congratulation for those who liberated the people of Iraq).

In short, if you're an avowed leftist, you apparently can't win for trying, and any semblance of editorial nuance makes you fit for damnation by the guardians of righteousness.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1205 days
Last activity: 1002 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by godking
    Lemme guess - you pulled this off Free Republic!

Let me check...nope the link was right to the horses mouth. That's why I included the link. So you can read it for your damn self...




messenoir
Summer sausage








Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

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#20 Posted on
I'm sure the editor of Salon knows so much about my anti-war reasonings and those of the people around me. I also bet I could find a quote from a pro-war person saying most pro-war people (and the government) didn't really care about the welfare of the Iraqis, and that was all an excuse to get the left on board.

Strawmen are such tricky creatures.
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