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The W - Football - Safeties and short kicks
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anibanging
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Since: 5.3.02

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#1 Posted on
I have a question about late game strategy when one team is trailing by 9 or 10 points.

Usually the trailing team tries to get in a quick score and then try for an onside kick to get the ball back again for another attempt.

Is there any nuance in the rules i'm nor aware of that prohibit a team from doing the following:

when nearing the endzone on a drive down the field, intenionally throw an interception deep in the endzone and take the opposing player down with in the endzone for a safety. Thus getting two points and forcing the other team to kick off to you allowing you another drive down the field.

I'm sure this isn't the safest strategy in the world and it may not work sometimes, but compared to the onside kick which almost never works it seems like a decent strategy. And the element of suprise wouldn't hurt either. But i've never seen it used. Has it been? or is it against the rules or something?

(edited by anibanging on 18.11.02 1620)
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Since: 2.11.02
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#2 Posted on
if the ball's intercepted in the endzone and the player tackled before leaving thats a touchback and the other team starts from their own 20.
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
If a team gets a safety (as in, the team getting the two points), they get the ball back to prevent this very thing from happening.



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anibanging
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#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by dMr
    if the ball's intercepted in the endzone and the player tackled before leaving thats a touchback and the other team starts from their own 20.


This makes sense. fair enough.


    Bucksfan
    If a team gets a safety (as in, the team getting the two points), they get the ball back to prevent this very thing from happening.


Am i confusing what you said? because this sounds like it wouldn't stop anything.
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#5 Posted on
An example of when taking a safety could help would be this: Down by 1 in the last minute, no timeouts, 4th and long inside your own 10. Take the safety, your down 3, but you have a better shot of recovering an onside kick on the free kick than you do of pulling out 4th and long. Doubtful anyone would try it, and if you failed to take the safety and didn't get the first in that situation, that is the time to have you defense flop to give up the TD, make it 8, and have another shot with the ball.
These are the situations gamblers dread the most.



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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by anibanging

      Originally posted by dMr
      if the ball's intercepted in the endzone and the player tackled before leaving thats a touchback and the other team starts from their own 20.


    This makes sense. fair enough.


      Bucksfan
      If a team gets a safety (as in, the team getting the two points), they get the ball back to prevent this very thing from happening.


    Am i confusing what you said? because this sounds like it wouldn't stop anything.



Nevermind, I misunderstood your question.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
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evilwaldo
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by dMr
    if the ball's intercepted in the endzone and the player tackled before leaving thats a touchback and the other team starts from their own 20.


Actually, it can be a safety if the player makes an attempt to leave the endzone. An example would be if a player runs East/West after an interception and is tackled in the end zone or leaves the end zone but is driven back into the end zone and tackled.





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#8 Posted on
The only situation I can think of where taking a safety would help is if you're up by a few points (say, 6) late and you're pinned deep in your territory. Heave it through your uprights, give them the ball way the hell back in their territory, and make them drive farther. I think it worked in a Dolphins/Jags playoff game a couple of years ago.



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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Originally posted by evilwaldo

      Originally posted by dMr
      if the ball's intercepted in the endzone and the player tackled before leaving thats a touchback and the other team starts from their own 20.


    Actually, it can be a safety if the player makes an attempt to leave the endzone. An example would be if a player runs East/West after an interception and is tackled in the end zone or leaves the end zone but is driven back into the end zone and tackled.




nope...it's all on who put the ball in the end zone. if a qb throws an int in the other teams end zone and that player is downed in his own end zone, it's a safety.

if he attempts to run out, and gets driven back, or cuts back into the end zone, it's a safety


here's some snippits from http://ww2.nfl.com/fans/rules/safety2.html

. The important factor in a safety is impetus. Two points are scored for the opposing team when the ball is dead on or behind a teamís own goal line if the impetus came from a player on that team.

Examples of Safety:

(b) Ball carrier retreats from field of play into his own end zone and is downed. Ball carrier provides impetus.

Examples of Non-Safety:

(a) Player intercepts a pass with both feet inbounds in the field of play and his momentum carries him into his own end zone. Ball is put in play at spot of interception.

(b) Player intercepts a pass in his own end zone and is downed in the end zone, even after recovering in the end zone. Impetus came from passing team, not from defense. (Touchback)






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Since: 16.2.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
From the desk of Swordsman Yen
A scenario where I could see a safety work is when a team is up by 3 points with about 8 seconds left, 3rd and long on their own 2 yard line and the other team has at least one timeout left. Can't kneel since the clock can be stopped, throwing long for the first down would be too risky, and running it could either risk a fumble or not enough room to punt and keep the other team out of field goal range. In short, it looks like the other team will likely get the ball back for one last shot.

What the QB could do in this situation is run to the back of the end zone to take some time off the clock. When the defense is about to approach him, he'll step out of bounds to take a safety. That'll give them a one point edge, a few seconds taken off the clock, and a chance to punt from your own 20 instead of your own end zone. If timed right, you will force the other team to try come up with a miracle TD on the last play of the game.

(edited by Swordsman Yen on 19.11.02 1559)


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Since: 17.1.02
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#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by Swordsman Yen
    A scenario where I could see a safety work is when a team is up by 3 points with about 8 seconds left, 3rd and long on their own 2 yard line and the other team has at least one timeout left. Can't kneel since the clock can be stopped, throwing long for the first down would be too risky, and running it could either risk a fumble or not enough room to punt and keep the other team out of field goal range. In short, it looks like the other team will likely get the ball back for one last shot.

    What the QB could do in this situation is run to the back of the end zone to take some time off the clock. When the defense is about to approach him, he'll step out of bounds to take a safety. That'll give them a one point edge, a few seconds taken off the clock, and a chance to punt from your own 20 instead of your own end zone. If timed right, you will force the other team to try come up with a miracle TD on the last play of the game.

    (edited by Swordsman Yen on 19.11.02 1559)



We actually practiced this scenerio in college, except we snapped the ball to our stud RB who's job was to run as much time as possible off the clock before taking the safety.



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dMr
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Since: 2.11.02
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#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by rikidozan

      nope...it's all on who put the ball in the end zone. if a qb throws an int in the other teams end zone and that player is downed in his own end zone, it's a safety.

      if he attempts to run out, and gets driven back, or cuts back into the end zone, it's a safety


      here's some snippits from http://ww2.nfl.com/fans/rules/safety2.html

      . The important factor in a safety is impetus. Two points are scored for the opposing team when the ball is dead on or behind a teamís own goal line if the impetus came from a player on that team.

      Examples of Safety:

      (b) Ball carrier retreats from field of play into his own end zone and is downed. Ball carrier provides impetus.

      Examples of Non-Safety:

      (a) Player intercepts a pass with both feet inbounds in the field of play and his momentum carries him into his own end zone. Ball is put in play at spot of interception.

      (b) Player intercepts a pass in his own end zone and is downed in the end zone, even after recovering in the end zone. Impetus came from passing team, not from defense. (Touchback)





    OK I'm confused. You say if the QB throws the pick in the opponents endzone and said player is downed thats a safety. But in the snippets from the rules that exact situation is quoted as example b of being a non safety.

    Basically provided the defender gains control of the ball in the endzone he can dance the fandango in there until he's tackled and its till a touchback. I tried it in Madden 2003 to check it out (not the fandango bit unfortunately, though I did make a start on a mean polka) and it was a touchback, surely conclusive proof.
redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#13 Posted on

    Originally posted by Swordsman Yen
    A scenario where I could see a safety work is when a team is up by 3 points with about 8 seconds left, 3rd and long on their own 2 yard line and the other team has at least one timeout left. Can't kneel since the clock can be stopped, throwing long for the first down would be too risky, and running it could either risk a fumble or not enough room to punt and keep the other team out of field goal range. In short, it looks like the other team will likely get the ball back for one last shot.

    What the QB could do in this situation is run to the back of the end zone to take some time off the clock. When the defense is about to approach him, he'll step out of bounds to take a safety. That'll give them a one point edge, a few seconds taken off the clock, and a chance to punt from your own 20 instead of your own end zone. If timed right, you will force the other team to try come up with a miracle TD on the last play of the game.

    (edited by Swordsman Yen on 19.11.02 1559)






When your up 6, thats what you definately do. However, up 3 puts the lead back to 1. Should the free kick be short, the receiving team could fair catch the ball. That would set up a free kick for the other team, where the field goal kicker could not be rushed, possibly allowing for the game winning field goal to be kicked. Long shot of it happening, but no coach puts the game from a point where a field goal ties it to a field goal beats you unless you know you can run around the end zone until the clock runs out.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
dmr said:

OK I'm confused. You say if the QB throws the pick in the opponents endzone and said player is downed thats a safety. But in the snippets from the rules that exact situation is quoted as example b of being a non safety.

i says


i never said about getting downed for a safety, but

if you catch a pick or recover a fumble, take it out to lets say the 5, then you want to cut back and do an end around or something, and while doing that, you run back into the end zone and get tackeled, it's a safty.


rule of thumb for safety

opposing team puts ball in your end zone and you down it, touchback
you put ball in your own end zone, and you down it, safety.

and of course, if a penality is called on offence, and the ball is in the endzone, like for grounding or holding, it's a safety



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#15 Posted on
Isn't the problem with this scenario the obscure rule regarding a free kick (unopposed) on the first play after a fair catch?

I can only vaguely remember this one - someone with more arcane knowledge needs to help out here.



Your analogy is similar to:

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"I can already write with my hands, why not my pancreas?"
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dMr
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Since: 2.11.02
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#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by rikidozan
    dmr said:

    OK I'm confused. You say if the QB throws the pick in the opponents endzone and said player is downed thats a safety. But in the snippets from the rules that exact situation is quoted as example b of being a non safety.

    i says


    i never said about getting downed for a safety, but

    if you catch a pick or recover a fumble, take it out to lets say the 5, then you want to cut back and do an end around or something, and while doing that, you run back into the end zone and get tackeled, it's a safty.


    rule of thumb for safety

    opposing team puts ball in your end zone and you down it, touchback
    you put ball in your own end zone, and you down it, safety.

    and of course, if a penality is called on offence, and the ball is in the endzone, like for grounding or holding, it's a safety



Apologies. Misunderstood your original post.

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Since: 9.12.01
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#17 Posted on
Ok, here's what I was looking for...

http://ww2.nfl.com/fans/rules/fairkick.html

Fair Catch Kick
1. After a fair catch, the receiving team has the option to put the ball in play by a snap or a fair catch kick (field goal attempt), with fair catch kick lines established ten yards apart. All general rules apply as for a field goal attempt from scrimmage. The clock starts when the ball is kicked. (No tee permitted.)

So, you could (in theory) fair catch the ball off of the ensuing punt after the safety, and send your kicker out to boom a 50-60 yard field goal attempt. You could even go for farther, in theory, because the opposition is 10 yards back from the line, so you can really boom the ball at a low trajectory without worrying about it being blocked.

I think I've seen this tried one time in the 20 or so years I've been watching football.



Your analogy is similar to:

"They already have cars that you can drive, why not blenders?"
"I can already write with my hands, why not my pancreas?"
"They already have beef that I can eat, why not granite?"

-- my new favorite quote from Slashdot comments.

Swordsman Yen
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Since: 16.2.02
From: Shaolin

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
From the desk of Swordsman Yen

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    Ok, here's what I was looking for...

    http://ww2.nfl.com/fans/rules/fairkick.html

    Fair Catch Kick
    1. After a fair catch, the receiving team has the option to put the ball in play by a snap or a fair catch kick (field goal attempt), with fair catch kick lines established ten yards apart. All general rules apply as for a field goal attempt from scrimmage. The clock starts when the ball is kicked. (No tee permitted.)

    So, you could (in theory) fair catch the ball off of the ensuing punt after the safety, and send your kicker out to boom a 50-60 yard field goal attempt. You could even go for farther, in theory, because the opposition is 10 yards back from the line, so you can really boom the ball at a low trajectory without worrying about it being blocked.

    I think I've seen this tried one time in the 20 or so years I've been watching football.



Can a team still have the option to free kick the ball if time expires before they get the fair catch? I do wonder why a lot of coaches don't try this more often towards the end of the game.



"I don't care what people think. People are stupid." -- Charles Barkley

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Since: 9.12.01
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#19 Posted on
I believe this particular Fair Catch Kick only applies to a fair catch on a kick following a safety.

Anyone play college or HS ball where this actually came into play?



Your analogy is similar to:

"They already have cars that you can drive, why not blenders?"
"I can already write with my hands, why not my pancreas?"
"They already have beef that I can eat, why not granite?"

-- my new favorite quote from Slashdot comments.

redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

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#20 Posted on
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    I believe this particular Fair Catch Kick only applies to a fair catch on a kick following a safety.

    Anyone play college or HS ball where this actually came into play?







I remember it happening in a Patriots/Colts game in the late 80's at the end of the first half. It was a fair catch at around midfield, and the Patsies had their punter come on to attempt the field goal. It missed, but thats the reason why I remember you could take a free kick on a fair catch.


edit: reason why its more likely off a safety is because kicking from the 20 there is a better chance of the ball being caught within 65 yards of the goal posts than there is on a regular kickoff from the 30. Normally, when you see guys fair catch kickoffs, they are inside their own 40, causing a field goal attempt to be over 70 yards. Also, if you miss the field goal try on the free kick, you lose possession, so you would only try the long kick in the last 5 seconds of a half or game.

(edited by redsoxnation on 20.11.02 1646)

(edited by redsoxnation on 20.11.02 1647)

I want you to know, I agree with everything I've just said.
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