Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaverPerhaps there IS a racial bias for black QBs and coaches to do well (eg. Ray Rhodes, Michael Bishop, Kordell Stewart)
MICHAEL BISHOP?! Could you not hink of a black QB who at least PLAYED in the league? Michael Bishop never did anything on an NFL field that didn't involve a clipboard.
He... uhm... did throw a Hail Mary for the Pats one year... <_<
But really, all this comes down to is Tony Banks. If Banks had gotten the hype that McNabb did, then maybe Limbaugh would have had a point. But we're talking about McNabb, who's basically earned a good deal of accolades. Not hype, but deserved praise. Thus, in the immortal words of Franken, Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot (okay, maybe not fat anymore, but you get the idea).
Oh, and kgriffey, Alstott is a fullback in name only. He's really much more of a running back.
Count me as one of those people that doesn't believe a championship ring is necessary to be recognized as an all-time great, but to be counted as THE best at a position or in the game....you need at least one title to your name. This is why Babe Ruth, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron come up in my 'best ballplayer of all time' debate well before Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds or Ted Williams.
That being said, only a lunatic would take Trent Dilfer as their quarterback over McNabb just because the Dilf has a ring. Keep in mind that McNabb's only been in the league a few years. Barring injury, he should have plenty more chances to win a Super Bowl.
"When this bogus term alternative rock was being thrown at every '70s retro rehash folk group, we were challenging people to new sonic ideas. If some little snotty anarchist with an Apple Mac and an attitude thinks he invented dance music and the big rock group is coming into his territory, [that's] ridiculous." - Bono, 1997
Wow The ESPN Game Day Boys really did a number on Rushy this week. Talk about opening the door so someone can leave and the second he leaves you bolt it shut, triple lock it and throw on some garlic and holy water to make sure he doesn't get back in LoL... All the guys really upset with themselves in not catching it. Tom Jackson looked like he was going to cry, told a great story about a black kid coming up to him and asking him "If it's okay for him to play Quarterback" Ha classic!. Didn't really get the whole "Brotherhood" talk but this was a pretty fun segment LoL at Young comparing it to not seeing a wide open receiver during the comment. Have no idea really what Irvine was going on about. But it was overwhelming they didn't want Rush there.
I see there's a lot of Limbaugh fans here, I still consider what he said to be racially ignorant.Some of the defenders are saying "At least he didn't say (insert really offensive statement). I say yeah he didn't bring out the white bedsheet and hood, sure he could have been more inappropriate. But what he said was still wrong..This very thread there were a lot of interesting and thoughtful opinions on why some think McNabb is overrated (real good point about backup QB's doing well in his place). But Rush didn't go in that direction. Even if he said "I think McNabb is overrated (snip out racial agenda comment) Philly defense is what won them games". I would disagree with the opinion because I think you have to take into consideration his lack of quality offensive players on Philly that's not McNab. But it would go down as an football opinion.
But for some reason he felt the need to go off saying the media has some pro-black QB agenda. There's no twisting of the words, there no jumping to conclusions here. What he said is what he said. It's not like he commented on McNabb & someone saying "He's dissing McNabb cause he's black" That would be jumping to conclusion with no proof. Or someone saying the running/scrambling QB (which is mostly black QB's) is not a good style & if someone accuses that someone for hating on black QB I would defend him and say he's just doesn't like the style and doesn't necessary mean anything about skin color... But this wasn't' the case. He said something that was really pin point & somewhat outrages that it didn't just affect McNabb but every other black QB that's getting attention
Look I respect a guy like Marvin Lewis and he called out against what Rush said. Donovan McNabb plays in what might be the most harshes sports cities in North America, Philly fan is well known for their pitchfork and flame torch attitude to their players. Hell McNabb on draft day was greeted with booos and aaaaaah nooo (I guess they wanted Couch, Akili Smith or McNown LoL)... I'm sure McNabb has heard every criticism fair and unfair there is to be heard, and he really didn't care what a blowhard like Limbaugh thought (who I'm guessing has as much credibility as Jillian Barbarie among the players). But when Rush brought in race that what bothered him. So it can't be considered a non issue.
Which of course is what Limbaugh is claiming that it's a big media conspiracy who's making a mountain out of a molehill. Personally a statement like he said shouldn't be ignored and the media flashlight should be spotted on claims like that,,, Of course Rush proving he's a piece of umm work says "Seeing how the media is reacting so strong to this, it shows it has proof to it" Huh? Someone saying something outrageous and dumb and the media reacts to it equals the idiotic thing has some fact?. Rush should join John Rocker and they can do their own baseball pre-game show. Might be a better fit for him.
This was a disaster from the beginning. Rush could get away with stuff like this because his fans/listeners see him in a real different light then majority of people see him. It's the "Rush Limbaugh Show" so of course they are going to agree with him and give him the benefit of the doubt... That doesn't work for something like an NFL pregame show because the viewership is just too diverse (race, income, religion, political etc..), when you start pushing your not so subtle political agenda on a show like this and say stuff like he said last week people are not going to give him the benefit of the doubt like his listeners are. It just comes off as an ignorant borderline racist man on my TV going off on something that I want to watch is football opinion. Thinking back how bad would he have been on MNF. Dennis Miller not such a bad choice considering who it could have been
(edited by Net Hack Slasher on 5.10.03 1243) Me fail English? That's unpossible
Originally posted by Net Hack Slasher Hell McNabb on draft day was greeted with booos and aaaaaah nooo (I guess they wanted Couch, Akili Smith or McNown
Actually, It was Ricky Williams they wanted so badly, but I understand your point.
Edit: Looking at the results from the first round, I wonder how Cleveland feels about taking Couch over McNabb. Although, I think Couch will make a fine QB with a new team. Starting your career as a rookie starting QB of an expansion franchise can be very hard.
(edited by Whitebacon on 5.10.03 0958) Cub Fear looms for fans in Atlanta, Florida, and San Francisco (thanks Florida).
Cub Fear is real.
Cub Fear is frightening. Brian Murphy, ESPN.com's Page 2
Personally, I think way too much has been made over this. I watched the Philly game this morning, and every FIVE MINUTES the damned commentators had to chime in about how "corageous McNabb was for going through what he went through this week," blah blah. McNabb went through nothing, he was called overrated by a commentator. Boo hoo.
Everyone is lambasting Rush for being racist. When it comes down to it, he was not being racist at ALL, he was calling the media racist. Yes, I will agree, there is a huge case to be made that that was neither the time nor the place to make that assertion. To call his statement "racially ignorant" is just as bad. Again, he made no corellation to the man's skill and his skin color. He questioned the media's treatment of him based on the fact that he was black. Erroneous? Possibly. But hardly evil.
Rush claimed in the aftermath that he was trying to highlight that the media liberal bias extends even into the sports world. At first I thought he was off his rocker. BUt seeing the way the story has unfolded over the past week, I have to wonder if there is something to his arguments. The same liberal media that would champion the fair treatment of overweight people has had the word "fat-bastard," or some variation of that, first on their lips when spewing venom about Rush (completely ignoring the fact that the man really is no longer overweight). They completely dismiss out of hand his accusation that they ARE racist, turned it back on him for even daring make the suggestion, and proceeded to evelate McNabb to an even loftier standard. The man is now a god quarterback in the eyes of the media, for no other reason than Rush said they were racist in their evaluation of him in the first place.
I have known for a long time that the NFL and the sports media in general was pushing for more black coaches and QBs. Wasn't there a huge debate about that just a few years back? Wasn't that highlighted agian this offseason with the Lions and their hiring of Mooch?
My point is the guy had an opinion, and there is some evidence to support it. It was NOT a racist statement- rather, an accusation of racism in itself. How people can completely ignore what was actually said in the rush to stomp down Limbaugh for no other reason than his political party is pretty disgusting to me. If Jesse Jackson were to make some statement that Peyton Manning is overrated by the media treatment because of his skin color recieve this kind of wrath? Doubtful- in fact, I think the NFL and the major media outlets would start an IMMEDIATE probe into the matter. Anyone who thinks otherwise is out of their minds.
I have to say, I have never been so disgusted at the media around the NFL as I was this week. Rush's comment should have stirred debate. Whether you agreed with him or not, the topic of conversation SHOULD have been how far the NFL and the sports world in general has come since the days of Jackie Robinson. The commentators SHOULD have been talking about how players of different races are treated by the media, and whether or not Rush's statement had any validity. We should have seen bits on the coverage McNabb has gotten over his career, and what he has done (or not) to deserve the coverage he has gotten. Instead it was a McNabb love fest and general Rush bashing- no analysis or debate at all. Frankly it was very disappointing, and I find myself more in agreement with Rush after this week of football than I thought I could be.
Originally posted by Net Hack SlasherWow The ESPN Game Day Boys really did a number on Rushy this week. Talk about opening the door so someone can leave and the second he leaves you bolt it shut, triple lock it and throw on some garlic and holy water to make sure he doesn't get back in LoL...
Yeah, it was a pretty gutless hatchet job on the guy once he was already gone. Seems that nobody had the balls to address the issue on air, now that he's safely gone. Tom Jackson bitches about how Rush had been "divisive on air fo years" or something like that to imply that Rush is nothing other than an out and out racist.
I like GameDay too. But after that gutless, no class display, I had to turn the TV off.
1) Rush's opinion about the sport's media having a "social agenda" is not totally out of left field, I actually do agree with that. Good examples include the large amount of hype that the Martha Burks thing got for a protest numbering about a dozen. Also, the sport's media shoving the women's World Cup down our throats 4 years ago (surprisingly, it hasn't been near as bad this go around). Heck, they were pratically cheerleaders for Sorenstam in that whole PGA deal a few months ago. The media does push certain agendas in the sports world, and it does cross into the world of politics every once in a while (as everything does). I just don't think that applies to black QB's anymore.
2) If it was so racially offensive, why was there no posts here or anywhere else (at least on sports message boards I frequent) before Wednesday on this subject? Didn't ANYBODY watch the show? Then why didn't they speak up? Was everybody waiting for marching orders from the media? Was everybody waiting to see which way the wind would blow? For that matter, why didn't anybody on the show say anything? They heard him. They just didn't know that they were suppose to be offended until other people ('other people' meaning media, or friends who watched the media) told them. Doesn't speak well of them and their ability to think for themselves.
Everything that is wrong in this world can be blamed on Freddie Prinze Jr.
Originally posted by ges7184If it was so racially offensive, why was there no posts here or anywhere else (at least on sports message boards I frequent) before Wednesday on this subject? Didn't ANYBODY watch the show?
Good point. I slept in that Sunday (like I do most Sundays, anyway), so I never saw the show. And I knew nothing of what happened until a full three days afterwards.
"How did the Cards go 11-5? How did Emmie Smith rush for 1,400 yards? How did Jeff Blake become the No. 3 rated passer in the NFL? You dreamt it, that's how."
This was probably seen by even less people, but I throw it out just in case somebody did see it:
You see last Sunday I witnessed one such denunciation on ESPN but it was not made by Rush Limbaugh. In fact, another comment turned out to be far more damning than his regarding race, sports, and the media. The offensive speech was made by another white talking head on ESPN. His name is Sal Paolantonio and he spoke a few hours before Rush on the program, “The Sports Reporters.”
Unlike Limbaugh, what Paolantonio said was truly racist. He implied that a lot of people around the country were hoping that Notre Dame’s coach, Tyrone Willingham, would fail and be fired because of his race. In Paolantonio’s Jim Crow era mind, apparently there are still a great many Americans who want to keep the black man down.
A few things. As for why I didn't immediately rush out to condemn him...well because I knew this is exactly what it would be like. The people who like Rush and what he stands for will agree with him. The people who don't agree won't.
Was his comment racist? Yes, because it implied that black QB's are not talented enough to be the best in the game without the constant propping up from the media. The idea that McNabb was named to the pro bowl or ranked high in MVP voting or any of the accolades given to him are somehow based out of sympathy rather than talent is ignorant. Not only racially, but sports-wise.
Where were all the folks who suddenly think McNabb is no better than Akili Smith when he was gutting out 4 TD's last year on a broken leg? Notice the vultures only came out when he happened to slip a little bit and have a couple of bad games. I suspect that if the Eagles win another game or two in a row the "overrated" argument will again disappear into the mists.
As for the level of media attention given, this is an unfair comparison. Rush Limbaugh is one of the most famous political ideologues in the country. His signing by ESPN was trumpted as a major announcement. When he speaks, people for better or worse will listen. Thus his saying something like he said is going to be bigger news simply due to public interest than what some guy who no one outside of hardcore ESPN junkies has ever heard of has to say. If you want to call Palantonio unfair in his judgment, go right ahead, I'm not going to argue with you. But to suggest that it's some sort of liberal media conspiracy that the most well-known conservative voice not named Bush in the country gets more publicity than Sal Palantonio is either highly naive or willfully ignorant of facts in order to make a point.
Originally posted by spf2119Was his comment racist? Yes, because it implied that black QB's are not talented enough to be the best in the game without the constant propping up from the media.
See, That is the point I disagree upon. How is it that you can draw that conclusion? He made the assertion that Philly is carried by its defense, and McNabb gets a lot of credit he does not deserve for the Eagle's success. There is some statistical evidence to support this (This previously posted link gives some good examples).
Rush never implied anything of the sort, and if he HAD, I would be right on the "stone Rush" bandwagon. He made an implication that the media is racist in that regard, and there is evidence to support his assertion. If his REAL message was that blacks were not good enough to be at the top of the QB pile, he certainly would have been more clear on that point. If there is one thing Rush is not, its subtle. It simply is not fair to damn someone for something that you think he might have meant, when his actual words were something totally different.
Originally posted by King of CrapHe was called "overrated"...
Because of his skin color, and that's the problem.
Let's put an entirely different spin on the situation. If I was a member of the media, and I wrote "I hope Tyrone Willingham succeeds at Notre Dame. It will open doors for black coaches in college football." Would that be a racist statement? Now, if other writers wrote the same thing, would someone saying that the media has hyped Willingham because he is a black coach be a racist statement?
What Rush said was not racist. It may have well been wrong, but it was not racist.
It is the soldier not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press
It is the soldier not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech
It is the soldier not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate
It is the soldier not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial
It is the soldier, who saluted the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag -Anonymous
I really like Seth Joyner's stuff on the NFL Channel (or whatever it's called). He seems pretty comfortable in front of the camera, but he's not all up in everybody's area like Deion and his ego doesn't seem huge.