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The W - Baseball - Rules question
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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 242 days
Last activity: 236 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35

In the style of "So You Think You Know Baseball" from Baseball Digest:

In a 1970 game between the Braves and Dodgers in Los Angeles, the Dodgers are up by one in the top of the ninth with two outs. The Braves have Tommie Aaron on third and Clete Boyer on second.

Bob Didier slaps a medium-speed roller down the third base line in fair territory, the third baseman, Bill Sudakis, overruns the ball trying for a play at the plate, and Aaron scores. After Aaron crosses the plate, Boyer takes a step around third, stepping on the ball in fair territory.

Note: Boyer has already reached third base. The ball has not been touched by a fielder, nor has it hit the bag.

So, have the Braves tied the game? And how is it scored?



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Gugs
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Since: 9.7.02
From: Sleep (That's where I'm a viking)

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
Not only have the Braves tied the game, they might just take the lead.

Because Aaron scores before Boyer touches the ball, and Boyer is not a forced runner, the run counts, and the score is tied. Because Sudakis has attempted to make a play on the ball, Boyer is not out, even though the ball hit him in fair territory.

With the ball around third base, the third baseman around home plate and the runner running toward home, it is highly unlikely that anyone will be able to stop the Braves from getting two runs on what should have been a fairly routine play.

Score it E5 on Sudakis, two runs in, no RBI for Didler.





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PeterStork
Sujuk








Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 611 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
I agree that Aaron scored since it's not a force play, and I'll defer on whether or not he's out by touching the ball. No matter what, this is an interesting question.



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kwik
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Since: 5.9.02
From: Norwich, NY

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.84
Well, here's the rule in question, rule 7, section 9, subsection k:

A runner is out when:


    A fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches the runner after having been deflected by a fielder, the umpire shall not declare the runner out for being touched by a batted ball. (emphasis mine) In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the fielder, and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball. If, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner deliberately and intentionally kicks such a batted ball on which the infielder has missed a play, then the runner shall be called out for interference.



Aaron scores, Boyer is still a legal baserunner, and can try to score the go-ahead run, unless, the umpire feels that Sudakis overrunning the ball does not constitute a legitimate chance at playing the ball. In that case, Boyer is out on interference, the ball is dead, but the run should still count.

(edited by kwik on 18.9.07 2318)


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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 242 days
Last activity: 236 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35

OK, I get that. But my guess would be that either Sudakis would have recovered and was going back towards the ball when Boyer stepped on it, or Maury Wills was coming over to pick it up. Would it be interference then?



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds

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Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
I can't find any record of this on retrosheet. Do you happen to know the exact date?


(edited by Mr. Boffo on 18.9.07 2238)
PeterStork
Sujuk








Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 611 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    OK, I get that. But my guess would be that either Sudakis would have recovered and was going back towards the ball when Boyer stepped on it, or Maury Wills was coming over to pick it up. Would it be interference then?


I guess the answer would depend on the ump's determination then. If it's not purposeful interference (which we would assume not,) and he feels that no fielder would have a chance at the ball (afterall, someone is eventually going to pick up the ball, not let it lay there - it depends on whether they're close enough to have an immediate play) then Boyer would be safe.



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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 242 days
Last activity: 236 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35

    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    I can't find any record of this on retrosheet. Do you happen to know the exact date?


    (edited by Mr. Boffo on 18.9.07 2238)


Sorry Mr. B, it's a made-up scenario. Baseball Digest used to put one of these in every issue, sometimes from real games, sometimes made up. Topps even put some of them on the back of some 1972 baseball cards.

I appreciate the replies, folks. I think you all got it surrounded.



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds

Now announcing for the NBWA!
www.wdws.com home of DWS Sportsnight and downstate radio home of thecubsfan!
TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 23 days
Last activity: 19 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.17
Not sure how you can round third and step on a ball in fair territory - but the answer is that Clete Boyer stole 2 bases in 1970.. so the ball had to have stopped by the time he kicks it.

Since the 3B had a chance to field it, Boyer can't be out for getting hit by a batted ball. And it would be up to umpire Dick Stello to decide if kicking the ball was intentional (Boyer's out) or not (ball remains in play). Since I think the ball stopped, and he'd have to go out of his way to kick it, I say Stello calls him out, but allows the run to score, we go to the bottom of the ninth. Braves manager Lum Harris gets kicked out of the game. Vin Skully remains unflappable throughout.

Scoring on the play depends on the hop, could be E5 and an unearned run, or an infield single/RBI. Sudakis then gets credit for a chance/putout on Boyer, since he's closest to the play.




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