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The W - Baseball - Roger not denied!
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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#1 Posted on
Wins his 300th AND goes over 4000 strikeouts!

And, does it against the Cardinals! LOL! Thats just what this Yankee fan living in St Louis wanted to see!

Congrats Roger! Well done!
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TheCow
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Since: 3.1.02
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#2 Posted on
*sigh*

Well, I knew it was going to happen eventually - you can only have your pen blow so many leads before they finally hold onto one for you. It probably helped matters quite a bit that although Simontacchi had a good game, he had 3 bad pitches, all of which were taken out of the park. Oh well, I'm not too bitter.

Congrats, Roger. You've done well.







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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#3 Posted on
well, even a seeming jerk-off like Clemens is going to get 300 with all the health, longevity, and, yes, (he admits most grudgingly) talent he has.

I just wish it could have stretched out a leeeetle bit more, so he had to keep getting seats and flying his family around. It was classic having his family there and interviewed on Fox JUST before he got knocked out and then got to watch his loss go up in the dugout a week ago against the Cubbies.

OK, Roger, you can shave now...


(edited by AWArulz on 15.6.03 0026)


We'll be back as soon as order is restored.....
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.



Over 1400 posts and still never a Wiener of the Day!





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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#5 Posted on
NOW he's claiming he'll boycott the Hall of Fame induction ceremony if he can't be a Yankee! Another example of an athlete who doesn't "get it".

Roger Clemens: Bigger than the Hall of Fame.



Washington Huskies, 2003 Pac-10 football champs. Coming soon.
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Since: 17.3.02
From: Queidersbach

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
While I disagree with Clemens' choice of hat to wear upon his induction into the Hall, I agree with his position concerning the right of the player to choose which hat they wear. Clemens should go in wearing a Boston hat. A Yankee hat is a slap in the face if there ever was one. The argument could be made that he got his rings, his 4000th k, and his 6th Cy Young in pinstripes. But his best years were in Boston. Point being, I hate Clemens and I hate the Yankees, but a player should have the right to choose.


On a side note, Carter should have been able to go into the Hall with a Mets hat on.



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Since: 12.1.02
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#7 Posted on
The thing with the hats came about when players who had played for multiple teams were getting paid off or talking about getting paid off to put on that teams hat for the hall. I think I remember about hearing the D-Rays giving Boggs a front office job in exchange for wearing their hat into the Hall. And wasn't there something with the Padres and Winfield?



Baseball's Sad Lexicon

These are the saddest of possible words:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."
Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Tinker and Evers and Chance.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,
Making a Giant hit into a double-
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
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Since: 9.12.01
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#8 Posted on
Winfield did go in as a Pad, and he does have a front office job. I'll not lie - it's a stretch for him to be in as a Padre - and there definitely was some murmuring about us buying the spot.

I think it was Boggs threatening to go in as a Devil Ray that did it, though.

(edited by Guru Zim on 15.6.03 2324)


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drjayphd
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Since: 22.4.02
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#9 Posted on
How's about they piss everyone off equally and have him go in as a Blue Jay? Really, he should know that they've made that rule for a reason: people doing dumb shit like what he's threatening to do. As far as I'm concerned, the person who ran him out of Boston is gone, stop holding the grudge. It's OVER, Clemens. Your problem was with Duquette, and he's not there. Hell, they even sold the team. Stop trying to twist the knife, because it's not really hurting us anymore as much as it is you.

Now the tricky part is getting him to read this post...



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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    I think it was Boggs threatening to go in as a Devil Ray that did it, though.

    (edited by Guru Zim on 15.6.03 2324)


It was. The contract he signed with the Rays stipulated that he would go in the Hall as a Ray. It was already bad enough he got his 3,000th hit has a Devil Ray...



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skorpio17
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Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

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#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?" He has a very good winning percentage as well as world series rings, seems like a winner to me.

The HoF hat deal isn't Roger's fault. He feels that Boston treated him like dirt, which they did. Boston turned on Clemens before he turned on them. Duquette forced out Clemens, claiming he was in the twilight of his career. He rightfully doesn't want to represent an organization that treated him like that.

However, by the time he gets in the HoF, five years from now, cooler heads will prevail. By then if the Red Sox had an ounce of class, they would've retired his number #21. He carried that team in the 80's and 90's.

In contrast, this weekend Yankee fans were giving the biggest cheers to ex-Yankees Tino Martinez and Joe Girardi. Good class.
redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by skorpio17

      Originally posted by Big Bad
      No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


    Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?" He has a very good winning percentage as well as world series rings, seems like a winner to me.

    The HoF hat deal isn't Roger's fault. He feels that Boston treated him like dirt, which they did. Boston turned on Clemens before he turned on them. Duquette forced out Clemens, claiming he was in the twilight of his career. He rightfully doesn't want to represent an organization that treated him like that.

    However, by the time he gets in the HoF, five years from now, cooler heads will prevail. By then if the Red Sox had an ounce of class, they would've retired his number #21. He carried that team in the 80's and 90's.

    In contrast, this weekend Yankee fans were giving the biggest cheers to ex-Yankees Tino Martinez and Joe Girardi. Good class.








He carried the Red Sox in the 80's, but after '91 he was a dud for Boston. And before the syncophants talk about the bad Boston teams of the early 90's: they were in first place in August of '93 with a 13 game home stand when they went in the tank, topped off by Clemens being knocked out in the second inning against Toronto and Dave Stewart. Then in '95 when Boston romped in the East, Clemens was at best the 3rd best pitcher in the rotation, behind Erik Hanson and Tim Wakefield (and its arguable whether we was better than Aaron Sele or Vaughn Eschelman that season). Yet Clemens' waterboy Kevin Kennedy puts Clemens on the mound for Game 1 in Cleveland.
Clemens #21 won't be retired by Boston for at least 20 years, because the fan base despises him, and why piss off your fans by retiring a number?



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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#13 Posted on
Clemens isn't a "loser" as in wins or losses, he's a "loser" as in he's a dickhead, asshole, pompous jerkoff. He got in the doghouse with Red Sox fans with the whole "we have to carry our own bags and the Red Sox don't treat my wife nicely" interview back in the 80s (1987, I think) and never really got back from there. THEN, he gets kicked out of the playoff game against Oakland, THEN, he gets F-A-T and basically forces the Red Sox to get rid of him. He should thank Dan Duquette every day for pissing him off and motivating him to get back to his dominating form when he went to Toronto, but Duquette would have been CRAZY to give 1995-Clemens on of the highest salaries in baseball, because he was just not good.

It's funny how some pitchers just let themselves head toward the tank then turn it around with a change of teams. Randy Johnson did the same thing with the Mariners.

(edited by JayJayDean on 16.6.03 0708)

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Chico Santana
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Since: 2.7.02
From: Jaaaaamacia Mon, No Problem.

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#14 Posted on

    Originally posted by skorpio17

      Originally posted by Big Bad
      No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


    Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?"




Ummmmmmmmmm, yeah. Can I borrow your time machine? Because unlike you I haven't seen Cy Young, Joe Wood, or Bob Gibson, or Sandy Koufax, or Christy Mathewson. How can you make a broad statement like that? The best ever topic is dumb, how do you know Mark Mulder won't be better than Roger? How can you compare Randy Johnson to someone you have never seen, the game changes all the time. You can only compare a pitcher to others that played the same era.

Those World Series were not on his back, David Cone was a far far better big game pitcher. Dave Stewert pretty much owned Clemens every big game they faced one another. Roger is a Hall of Famer, but JayJayDean and BigBad are right, he's a loser! It's nice to see him finnish career with a Texas team like he said he would during his whole career, oh wait!



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darkdragoon
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Since: 26.8.02

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#15 Posted on
Sure turned around the panic after the no-hitter around, good for Roger. Now maybe he'll lighten up a bit. Ok, Greg, your turn now.
skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

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#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by Chico Santana

      Originally posted by skorpio17

        Originally posted by Big Bad
        No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


      Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?"




    Ummmmmmmmmm, yeah. Can I borrow your time machine? Because unlike you I haven't seen Cy Young, Joe Wood, or Bob Gibson, or Sandy Koufax, or Christy Mathewson. How can you make a broad statement like that? The best ever topic is dumb, how do you know Mark Mulder won't be better than Roger? How can you compare Randy Johnson to someone you have never seen, the game changes all the time. You can only compare a pitcher to others that played the same era.

    Those World Series were not on his back, David Cone was a far far better big game pitcher. Dave Stewert pretty much owned Clemens every big game they faced one another. Roger is a Hall of Famer, but JayJayDean and BigBad are right, he's a loser! It's nice to see him finnish career with a Texas team like he said he would during his whole career, oh wait!



The good thing about baseball is that they keep a record of box scores so I don't need a time machine to know what happened.

Unlike the "He's a Loser because I say he is" argument.
I have actual legitimate reasons for calling him the best pitcher ever.

It is simple. Just take a look at the teams he pitched for. Look at how many more games they won on days when he pitched than on days he didn't pitch.

In Clemens 15 seasons with Boston and Toronto, they won 52% of their games.
(Contrary to conventional wisdom those Boston teams,except for 95, were only really good on days when Clemens pitched for them.)

Clemens alone has a 66% winning percentage which means his teams were 14% points better than they were when he didn't pitch. That is the largest difference for any pitcher with more than 100 wins.

It will be fun to see the Hall of Fame voting when it comes to it. He should get more votes (a higher voted percentage) than Tom Seaver and Seaver is the current all-time vote leader for pitchers with around 98%.
Seaver is also on my short list of best pitchers ever along with Lefty Grove.

Also, look at Clemens World Series stats: 3-0, 40 IP, 1.56 ERA, 0.93 WHIP. Sounds to me like a big game pitcher.

He was even good back in 1996 "his off-year" he led the league in K's the same year the Sox put him out to pasture.

Getting Boston to retire your number turns out to be even more difficult than getting into the Hall. The stated criteria is playing at least 10 years for the Sox, already in the Hall of Fame, + finished career with the Sox. So far he only meets one of the 3. Only Fisk got his number retired, so go figure.

JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#17 Posted on
The Red Sox have retired Fisk, Ted Williams, Yaz, Bobby Doerr, and Johnny Pesky's numbers.

Let me stress again that no one is disputing Roger Clemens' career records or accomplishments (although I somewhat disagree with using his World Series numbers alone as justification of being a "big-game pitcher. What about '86 World Series Game 6? Getting blasted by Oakland in '88 and '90 in the ALCS? Game 3 of the '99 ALCS when Pedro and the Red Sox kicked his pinstriped butt in three innings?) but he is an emotionally-stunted, spoiled baby of a man.

Football fans in Baltimore think John Elway is a loser, even though he's one of the greatest QBs of all-time. Same with lots of New Englanders (or ex-New Englanders, in my case) and Roger Clemens. He could go 36-0 and we'd all still be calling him "LOSER!"



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TheCow
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Since: 3.1.02
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#18 Posted on
Okay, I was going to try and stay out of the whole "best pitcher ever" argument, but you've left me no choice.

I'll help you out a little bit first. If you're going to compare Clemens' teams in his first 15 seasons, that's fine, but at least get your winning percentages right. He won 66% of his starts, but if the teams won 52% overall, then you have to factor out Clemens' starts in figuring out the non-Clemens winning percentage. (I think their percentages would be something like 49-50%, but that's hasty math.) In other words, it'd be 16-17% instead of 14%. If you can make the case that the teams had a losing percentage on days he wasn't pitching, that looks better.

With that being said.... you're still incredibly off. Whatever numbers you throw out there pale in comparison to 511. That's the number of wins Cy Young has. Granted, I know it was from a different era, but they didn't name it the Cy Young award for no reason. If you're going to claim Clemens as the best pitcher ever, I'd love to see him run out there every third day to pitch a complete game. Modern fans (myself included) can't really fathom that with the way the game's played now. However, I have no doubt in my mind that Cy, Mathewson, Joe Wood, Walter Johnson, et. al (I know there's TONS I'm forgetting), with the modern regimen, could go out there and simply blow people away with their stuff. It wouldn't even be close. I've heard people place him as high as 6th on "best pitcher" lists, but never first. Never - there's way too many good pre-WWII pitchers. After all, at least half of the 300-win club reached it before WWII, and most before Clemens even started pitching. (That's as much a testament to the 5-man rotation as anything else, though.) They must have been doing something right back then.

Oh, and for big-game pitchers, I'll take Whitey Ford against Clemens any day of the week. Also, how about this line?

3-0, 1.04 ERA, 17 1/3 IP, 19 K, 0.69 WHIP. That was Randy's line in the 2001 World Series. Doesn't seem half-bad to me, at least.

Whitey Ford's WS line, by comparison? 10-8, 2.71 ERA, 146 IP, 94 K, 1.14 WHIP. Yeah, that might be a lot of losses, but he did play in 11 World Series, y'know. That sort of thing happens. Of those Series, only the '53, '56, and '64 stats were really bad outings. In '60 and '61, he was a combined 4-0 with a 0.00 ERA. You read that right.

Please don't say Roger's the best pitcher ever.

(Edited to fix a couple of minor understanding errors - carry on, nothing to see here.)

(edited by TheCow on 17.6.03 1802)






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Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#19 Posted on
I have a question: If you're placing Clemens in the top two pitchers of all time, where will you place Randy in three years? (If of course, he decides to stick around that long)



Baseball's Sad Lexicon

These are the saddest of possible words:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."
Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Tinker and Evers and Chance.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,
Making a Giant hit into a double-
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."

by Franklin Pierce Adams
darkdragoon
Bockwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 3698 days
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#20 Posted on
Yeah, that's the thing. Randy will pass him in Ks, has a chance to get as many Cy Young awards, and even with his knee problems get at least to 250+ wins. Even then there's still Maddux and Glavine in the elder statesman category. Plus there's still a lot of life left in Pedro, Muss etc.
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Sheesh, I bet we sign him. Keep in mind the Padres rehabbed Fernando Valenzuela after his prime...
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