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The W - Current Events & Politics - 'Roe' Seeks to Overturn Roe v. Wade (Page 2)
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DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3475 days
Last activity: 3469 days
#21 Posted on
"So in having sex, she may create a living thing that has the potential to be (or is) a person. Why is it wrong to expect someone to take responsibility for that living thing?"

The frank answer you will get from some feminists and pro-abortion supporters is that without abortion, then "sex without freedom" would be the case. Thus, in order to guarantee that people can have sex with whomever they please, whenever they wish, and care nothing about the consequences, abortion must remain legal.

I think when you get down to it, this is perhaps the only motivating factor for why most people support "reproductive rights." At that point I guess you just have to wish the person good day and walk away. If they place the opportunity for sexual freedom over and above *human life*, there's really not much more you can say. Sex is indeed a powerful thing, and a powerful motivating factor. I am convinced it is the core reason the abortion debate gets so heated, or even exists at all.

DMC



"Do you not think there are things in this universe which you do not understand and yet which are true?" -Abraham VanHelsing
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3748 days
Last activity: 3217 days
AIM:  
#22 Posted on

    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    If it's illegal to have your foot cut off, why is it perfectly legal to have a fetus removed?


It shouldn't be illegal to have something amputated if you want to. If you're nuts, or stupid, or whatever, and you decide that dammit you just cannot go another day with that stupid right leg of yours... go for it. Why not? It's just cosmetic surgery taken to a rather extreme level.

I mean, what are the reasons for doing something like that? You're either looking to be able to use handicapped parking spaces, have some sort of problem with that appendage (nerve damage or something) that's not enough to get it lopped off on diagnosis, or you're just odd enough to be happier missing a chunk o' yourself. The only harm done is to you, so why make it illegal?

But then, I just think it'd be really funny when the pathetic trend-followers out there start chopping off body parts to be more fashionable. Feet are so last season.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2544 days
Last activity: 647 days
#23 Posted on
See, not all the pro-choice folks aren't all about sex without responsiblity, and everything else be damned.

For me, the question is this:

Why value the welfare of a potential future human over the welfare of current no-question-about it human?

We can argue about the cut-off date for viability of a fetus, and I'm not anymore in favour of late term abortions than DMC or any of the other cultural conservatives here, but for society as a whole, what is gained by forcing some teenager who makes a mistake, or who gets pregnant despite taking precautions, into carrying a child to term?

Even if they are outlawed, abortions will still happen. Do we really want to go back to back alley abortions? Do we really want all those unwanted children around?

I know women who have had abortions, and none of them take the decision as lightly as it is portrayed by the extreme right. Every aborition is unforturnate, and should be avoided, but sometimes it is the least worst option for people in their own lives.

And I agree with Nate on the foot thing. You want to cut off your own body part, or pay someone else to, go ahead. Actually, suicide and euthanasia should be legal, too, under the same logic.

One last thing to note: I don't see any women having chimed in to this discussion. If there are any reading, I'd be interested to read their thoughts.



-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 6 days
#24 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    This is my whole problem with the argument of the pro-abortion camp- the idea of the reproductive rights of women.

    So a woman should have the right to decide whether or not she gets pregnant. TRUE! However, No woman, anywhere, will ever get pregnant if she does not have sex. (leave the Virgin Mary at the door for this one, ok :)) The main purpose of sex is to create children. A woman just does not "get" pregnant, she makes it happen (I know there is a man involved to, but we are talking about the woman's rights... and she has the right to say no).

    So in having sex, she may create a living thing that has the potential to be (or is) a person. Why is it wrong to expect someone to take responsibility for that living thing?



Until we can transplant a fetus from a woman to a man, I have serious issues with "women" being the held solely responsible for an act that requires a minimum of two people.

I don't know about you, but I personally so not want to live in a world in which sex is used only for procreation. Maybe that's a utopian vision for you, but it is ludicrious to assume that people are not going to have sex soley for the pleasure. And given the fact that the majority of sexual activity is conducted by people hoping to NOT get the woman pregnant - I think we are a little beyond that at this point...

But aside from that, you're argument does not really address my point. Personally, I am by no means a fan of abortion. And I would be inclined to agree that 3rd trimester abortions, with the exception of extreme circumstances, should remain illegal. You dismiss a women's reproductive rights - fine. I have no problem with that - and in some cases I may agree with you. But I also recognize that some very reasonable and intelliegent people can make an argument against the fetus having priority.

Simply put, I do not think it is an issue that should be legislated by our government. It is WAY to gray of an area, and requires our legislative bodies to make moral judgements I do not think they are capable of making.





"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3475 days
Last activity: 3469 days
#25 Posted on
"But aside from that, you're argument does not really address my point. Personally, I am by no means a fan of abortion. And I would be inclined to agree that 3rd trimester abortions, with the exception of extreme circumstances, should remain illegal. You dismiss a women's reproductive rights - fine. I have no problem with that - and in some cases I may agree with you. But I also recognize that some very reasonable and intelliegent people can make an argument against the fetus having priority."

Third trimester abortions are not illegal, at least not federally.

I haven't seen much of an argument made *here* against the unborn having priority. Putting heads in the sand and saying "It's too gray of an area for us to deal with" doesn't really deal with what has already been presented here. Maybe it is not as gray as some may want you to think. Just because it's a *difficult* and sensitive issue does not mean there is no truth at all to be grasped about it.

DMC





"Do you not think there are things in this universe which you do not understand and yet which are true?" -Abraham VanHelsing
The Vile1
Lap cheong








Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 2012 days
Last activity: 1744 days
#26 Posted on
Here's my take. I don't think abortion will ever be outlawed. I mean one can understand certain circumstances causing a woman to get one (IE rape, abuse, incest, etc.)

However, what PRO-LIFE people don't realize is that getting an abortion is a dangerous physical, surgical process that people have to stop taking lightly like some sort of morning after pill; like an abortion is just another kind of contraceptive or birth control. Argue all you want, but its not. The only 100% certified birth control of unplanned pregnancy is abstinence folks, sorry but that's the simple fact. Is it unfair to your sexual freedom or something like that? Tough, if you are dating a man/woman and want to shack up with them, there IS no sexual freedom. That risk of a possible STD or unplanned pregnancy is always there. If a couple is married and don't want kids, get a visectomy or something...it is reversable...just in case.

If an abortion is about the safety of women and the mother, it doesn't mean much to me when most abortions are brough about by couples concieving an unwanted child and the fact that abortions themselves are NOT cut/paste safe and could have long term ill effects on whatever woman has one.




"Just a humble bounty hunter, ma'am."
-Spike Spiegel
Jobberman
Kishke








Since: 2.1.02
From: West Palm Beach, FL

Since last post: 81 days
Last activity: 42 days
#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser

    Even if they are outlawed, abortions will still happen. Do we really want to go back to back alley abortions?




That same logic can be applied to many things, like drug use.
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 12 days
AIM:  
#28 Posted on

    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
    One last thing to note: I don't see any women having chimed in to this discussion. If there are any reading, I'd be interested to read their thoughts.


The Wienerboard's tiny female population seems smart enough to avoid the Politics forum altogether.

That said, I'm not even touching this thread. Someone said that if there's ever another Civil War fought in this country, it's going to be over abortion, and that doesn't seem like too far-fecthed. Both sides are *right*, after all - and both sides have people who go way, way too far (Some Anti-Abortion folk particularly) - AND religion is involved. It's like Israel and Palestine. Way, way too messy to ever be resolved.



Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2544 days
Last activity: 647 days
#29 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jobberman

      Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser

      Even if they are outlawed, abortions will still happen. Do we really want to go back to back alley abortions?




    That same logic can be applied to many things, like drug use.



And I DO apply that logic to drug use (and prostitution, and gambling, and other topics). It should not be illegal. Throwing people in jail for doing something that only harms themselves is assinine. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol in the 30's and doesn't work for drugs now.

But that's really a whole other thread, isn't it? I'll stop this argument right here.



-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
Scott Summets
Sujuk








Since: 27.6.02

Since last post: 3905 days
Last activity: 3873 days
#30 Posted on
As I tell everyone I know who asks about Abortion, read the EXCELLENT book (not just about Abortion, about a whole doctor's life) Mortal Lessons: Notes on the Art of Surgery, by Richard Selzer. The chapter on Abortion is so graphic and true, that even the most pro-choice people I know have changed their views after reading it.




Rorschach: "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2829 days
Last activity: 2672 days
AIM:  
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Well, the legal case isn't going anywhere.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/apwire/story.cfm?xla=apwire&xlb=1&xlc=1013380&xld=1



Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1315 days
Last activity: 81 days
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#32 Posted on
Not unexpected really. She had a snowball's chance in hell of getting it overturned- despite what we hear, no justice in his right mind would want to hear another abortion case....





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