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The W - Baseball - Roberto Alomar hangs it up
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StaggerLee
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.92
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2017030

So, is he HOF worthy?
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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.13


Just doing a compare with Sandberg (since he's the most recent 2b inducted)..


Alamar has a few more games and ABs, the higher BA (300 Vs 285), and most offensive stats except HR, which Sandberg has 282 to 210.

Damn MLB.com, I can't figure out the compare on the two. I'd say it's close. I don't know gold gloves, and of course, Roberto WAS a bit unpopular.






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redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
If Alomar had retired 4 years ago, he would have been an absolute lock. With the awful play of the past few years of his career, his being a surefire 1st ballot HOF'er might be in doubt, but he will get in within 3 years of being on the ballot. This of course is contigent on something not getting unearthed on him, a caveat that has to be placed on everyone until they get the 75% vote.
Roy.
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Since: 25.2.04
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.84
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So, is he HOF worthy?


I'd say no. Like the ESPN article said:

    Originally posted by ESPN
    The 12-time All-Star called it quits with Tampa Bay, finishing just 276 hits shy of 3,000. He led Toronto to consecutive World Series titles in 1992-93 and was considered by many a lock for the Hall of Fame until a swift decline the last three seasons as he drifted from team to team.


The guy had a fabulous career, but the numbers lately haven't been good. I'm impressed that he at least saw it during spring training, and didn't make a total mockery of himself trying to get to some "Hall of Fame" milestone (*cough* Fred McGriff *cough*).

But what do I know? The Baseball Reference page (baseball-reference.com) has him listed as a probable Hall of Famer (but just barely), and he's listed in the same ranks as Ryne Sandberg.

Of course, he was a contributing factor towards my 1993 heartbreak (Joe F'n Carter was a small factor, too).
The Goon
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Since: 2.1.02
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.08
Robbie's the one celebrity I've been mistaken for since 1991, and as well, the star of possibly the funniest commercial to grace Canadian airwaves: "Catch the taste" for McCain Fruit Punch.

Thanks for the two titles in 1992-93, Robbie, as well as some quality highlight plays through the years. If you do get inducted in Cooperstown. make sure John Hirschbeck gives the induction speech.
sweetroll
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Since: 23.3.02
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
Well, similarity statistics on baseball-reference.com look pretty good to Robby. Click Here (baseball-reference.com)

Five HOFers among the Top 10 in similarity bodes well for Robby. Of course, Biggio, Larkin and Julio Franco are up there with him, too.

(edited by sweetroll on 19.3.05 2104)
Crimedog
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Since: 28.3.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by sweetroll
    Well, similarity statistics on baseball-reference.com look pretty good to Robby. Click Here (baseball-reference.com)

    Five HOFers among the Top 10 in similarity bodes well for Robby. Of course, Biggio, Larkin and Julio Franco are up there with him, too.

    (edited by sweetroll on 19.3.05 2104)


Well, you could make pretty good arguments for Biggio and Larkin being in the HOF.

As for Alomar, I think he's definitely a hall of famer. Yeah, he slumped some towards the end, but so what? He still put up some pretty damn great offensive numbers, and he was a brilliant defensive player. He's a 10-time Gold Glove winner and ranks in the top 60 all time in hits, runs, doubles and stolen bases, as well as having a .300 career average.

As a matter of fact, a better question might be was Roberto Alomar one of the best second basemen of all time? He obviously didn't have the offensive numbers of, say, Rogers Hornsby or Joe Morgan, but when you look at the total package, he's pretty impressive.

Alomar, 17 seasons: .300 BA, .443 Slugging, 2,724 hits, 1,508 runs, 504 2B, 80 3B, 210 HR, 1134 RBI, 474 SB, two world series rings, 10 Gold Gloves.

And Biggio has actually been a little bit better, so I think he and Alomar are both worthy of being in the hall. Hell, both of them are better all-around players than, say, Bill Mazeroski, and are DEFINITELY more worthy of being in than someone like Phil Rizzuto.
BigSteve
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Since: 23.7.04
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.41
Alomar should definately be in the Hall. If you look at the past 25 years or so, the best Second Basemen are Ryne Sanberg and Robby Alomar, with Jeff Kent and Craig Biggio (as well as a few others) all being right up there but probably (to me, at least) in the second tier of guys. So in the last 25 years, Alomar has been one of the best at his position which makes him worthy of conduction.

Plus he was also one of the best five all-around players in the game during his career (not necessarily one of the five best, but as far as being a complete player), combining a great glove with speed while being a good average hitter with moderate power.

If Alomar hung on for a few more years, until he was about 40, he could easily have 3,000 hits, which would make him a mortal lock for the Hall. Don't penalize him for not "hanging on." Good for him for realizing when to hang it up.

Just to throw this out there, for anyone that thinks he should be in the Hall, what team should he go in with? I'd like to say the O's, but that's just my personal bias. When I think of him, i always think of his years in Toronto, so I guess I'd like to see him go in as a Jay.

EDIT: Should have said 3,000 hits rather than 3,200 hits. No, he would not have gotten that many, in all liklihood.

(edited by BigSteve on 20.3.05 1744)


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SC
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Since: 11.12.01
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.80
As far as him being a Hall of Famer: Yes. He may not go first ballot, but he'll go. And he deserves it.

    Originally posted by sweetroll
    Of course, Biggio, Larkin and Julio Franco are up there with him, too.


Biggio also deserves a Hall of Fame nod. Larkin is borderline thanks to his injuries over the last half of his career but has become underrated over time. Julio Franco is an oddity and formerly a real good hitter, but nothing more.

    Originally posted by BigSteve
    If Alomar hung on for a few more years, until he was about 40, he could easily have 3,200 hits


Dude, he really sucked the last three years. He was not going to get 500 more hits. He was a man and recognized it, as you said.


    Just to throw this out there, for anyone that thinks he should be in the Hall, what team should he go in with? I'd like to say the O's, but that's just my personal bias. When I think of him, i always think of his years in Toronto, so I guess I'd like to see him go in as a Jay.


His best seasons were in Cleveland, but he is probably most associated with the Jays, so I'd guess Toronto.



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Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
As a Jays fan, I'm biased, but I'd say he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Alomar was the MAN during that 5-6 year stretch before his heel turn on Hirschbeck. There is really no logical argument that can be made for him going in with any team other than Toronto, either, so the Jays will get their first Hall of Famer.



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Since: 12.1.02
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.93


Yes.

As an aside, Jeff Kent is a horrible second baseman, he just hits real good.



jfkfc
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.10
    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    Jeff Kent is a horrible second baseman, he just hits real good.
Amen, and I think that fact will probably not help him.

Offensively, Sandburg had more power, but Alomar was the better hitter. Robbie was always a threat (before the trade to the Mets), to hit and to steal and with some pop to boot. The whole incident with spitting on Hirshbeck is a total and complete shame, and from what I have been able to tell over the years, turned an inordinate amount of fans against him to this day. To me, Alomar was one of the games great second basemen over a period of 10-15 years, with his great hitting and superior fielding. I believe that he will without a doubt be elected into the HOF within his third year of eligibility. Biggio's numbers are somewhat comparable, but I don't think he was nearly the defensive player Alomar was.

To me, deciding whether or not (for myself) a guy is HOF worthy depends on "Was this guy ever one of the top players at his position, and for how long?" IMO, it is "yes" and "way long enough."




(deleted by CRZ on 7.6.71 0335)
JayJayDean
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.63
Question: Does the fact that Alomar most likely never took steroids make him MORE LIKELY to be elected to the Hall, given what's going on today? I can't decide because he won't be eligible for five years, so it won't be such a hot button topic like it is today, most likely, BUT he will be going in against other guys who were products of the "steroid era".

I think not being involved in the steroid issue (so far) helps Fred McGriff's case IMMENSELY, and I've often said he's NOT a HoFer.



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StaggerLee
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.65
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Question: Does the fact that Alomar most likely never took steroids make him MORE LIKELY to be elected to the Hall, given what's going on today?


Yeah, instead of comparing him to the steroid era, compare him to the greats that were always wired on Amphetemines.
SC
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Since: 11.12.01
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.80
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    I think not being involved in the steroid issue (so far) helps Fred McGriff's case IMMENSELY, and I've often said he's NOT a HoFer.


Fred McGriff could've been without steroids, amphetamines, No-Doz, American apple pie, Ronald Reagan's jelly beans or Uncle Jesse's moonshine, and the fact remains that he was a hell of a good hitter and a borderline HOF candidate. It's not like Jose Canseco being on the roids makes McGriff a better player, and I never thought, "Well, McGriff was good, but McGwire was better, and the Hall only has room for one of them, so I better say no on McGriff." Either McGriff deserves to be in or he doesn't (I can't decide on him personally) and whether he does or not has nothing to do with whether or not other people took steroids.



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JayJayDean
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.63
But you don't think it puts McGriff's career into a bit of a different context, AT ALL? I can see a HoF election debate going like this:

MOD: Fred McGriff.
PROCRIMEDOGGUY: He hit 493 homers, and no one else with that many is not in.
ANTICRIMEDOGGUY: But he never won the MVP and he wasn't THAT great for very long.
PROCRIMEDOGGUY: But he hit 493 homers, was a very solid player with a long career and never took steroids.

Or something like that.




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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.80
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    But you don't think it puts McGriff's career into a bit of a different context, AT ALL?


Nope. He was as good as he was either way. And I know you used it as an example of something someone else might say, but I question the idea that "he wasn't THAT great for very long," because he was essentially the same player from age 24 through 38. His second season in Tampa Bay (age 35) compares favorably to any other season he ever had. He never majorly tailed off until those last two years when he was stretching to get 500 homers.



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BigDaddyLoco
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.94
    Originally posted by ScottChrist
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      But you don't think it puts McGriff's career into a bit of a different context, AT ALL?


    Nope. He was as good as he was either way. And I know you used it as an example of something someone else might say, but I question the idea that "he wasn't THAT great for very long," because he was essentially the same player from age 24 through 38. His second season in Tampa Bay (age 35) compares favorably to any other season he ever had. He never majorly tailed off until those last two years when he was stretching to get 500 homers.


McGriff was solid for many years, but I wouldn't say he was *great* for many years. I have no problem with him being the most solid hitter to never make the Hall, rather than a solid hitter amoungst many great players in the Hall.



(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 21.3.05 2341)


StaggerLee
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.65
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    But you don't think it puts McGriff's career into a bit of a different context, AT ALL? I can see a HoF election debate going like this:

    MOD: Fred McGriff.
    PROCRIMEDOGGUY: He hit 493 homers, and no one else with that many is not in.
    ANTICRIMEDOGGUY: But he never won the MVP and he wasn't THAT great for very long.
    PROCRIMEDOGGUY: But he hit 493 homers, was a very solid player with a long career and never took steroids.

    Or something like that.



Well, the list of people below him on the top 100 home run hitters who ARE in the hall of fame is pretty impressive, so perhaps the number of homers isnt important.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hihr1.shtml

(edited by StaggerLee on 22.3.05 0841)
jfkfc
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.09
I would agree with StaggerLee, that perhaps the number of home runs, at least in this case, ought not to be so important.

In comparing McGriff (baseballreference.com) to Stargell (baseball-reference.com), I honestly don't see how you could say they are that different. The numbers are really close, and McGriff played two less seasons (and the last two were for crap, pretty much). I know we have had the arguements before about using current HOF'ers as measuring sticks for determining who should go in today (or in the future), but it seems that anyone that considers Pops a true immortal and one of the all-time greats to play the game (not me)....should probably give the Crime Dog the nod also (again, not me).



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