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The W - Pro Wrestling - Ric Flairs Book (Page 2)
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BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.18
It's a tough spot, because I can see Flair working there even though I don't agree with him. He's right in one sense; Foley didn't draw outside the WWF. What it does sound like he's ignoring is the fact that Foley was never pushed in a large environment before he got to the WWF. WCW underused him and ECW, as popular as it may have been, was always a small market and a niche audience.

I'm not saying I agree with Flair's point of view on Foley. Foley's had plenty of great moments, both in the ring and out. I'll go out on a limb and predict (again, since I haven't read To Be The Man cover to cover yet) that his first book was better than Flair's will be. Where I do take Flair's side, though, is when he gets criticized for giving an opinion as if he shouldn't have said what he said. That's supposed to be a big part of these books - to get the author's opinion on the events and personalities around him. I don't see why so many people have such an issue with it here.



The beatings will continue until morale improves.
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
I just finished it too. Its a great read and I wished there was more material, becauses its that good. I don't think, he picks his spots either since he does bash Steiner and Foley, who are currently on the WWE roster. I don't think he kisses up to Vince or Hunter, since both appear to respect Flair. I'll say a lot of bad things about Hunter, but he loves Flair and for that I respect him. Bret does come off looking the worst, but he drives Hogan into the ground at times for good reason, too. Eric does get to the worst, but he deserves, because he did kill WCW. As far as I am concerned Flair should have beaten him to a blood pulp in the WWE.

If anything its a great look into the wrestling business and has a number of great stories. I highly recommend it. I haven't read Have a Nice Day, so I can't compare the two. I will say its better than Foley is Good though.
Pizza Delivery Jones
Chourico








Since: 27.6.04

Since last post: 924 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
Sergeial: "On the other hand, Flair claimed that Foley only became popular because Vince's publicity machine was behind him, much like Beefcake and Warrior, not because of any talent on his part. Besides being patently ridiculous, that's a lot like saying that the man's kids are ugly."

How exactly is that ridiculous? Would Foley have been a hit if he hadn't been immediately dropped into a program with Undertaker?
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
Actually, the Japaness and ECW matches made him an urban legend, so it was a good idea for Vince to put him in a program with the WWE legend, Taker. Plus, they both havve great in-ring chemistry and was a great angle. Like I said, I love Flair, but with everyone there are half-truths.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.63
"How exactly is that ridiculous? Would Foley have been a hit if he hadn't been immediately dropped into a program with Undertaker?"

People who've been dropped into a program with Undertaker with little to no build:

-El Gigante
-Kama Mustafa
-Kamala
-King Kong Bundy

People who've been dropped into a program with Undertaker with little to no build who turned into a massive success story:

-Mick Foley

I think it's fair to say that Foley being a hit rests on factors other than the marketting machine being behind him.



Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.31
    Originally posted by A Fan
    Actually, the Japaness and ECW matches made him an urban legend, so it was a good idea for Vince to put him in a program with the WWE legend, Taker. Plus, they both havve great in-ring chemistry and was a great angle. Like I said, I love Flair, but with everyone there are half-truths.


That doesn't prove anything. Just because it was a good idea to put Mankind against the Undertaker means that he would've gotten over anyway if they hadn't.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    "How exactly is that ridiculous? Would Foley have been a hit if he hadn't been immediately dropped into a program with Undertaker?"

    People who've been dropped into a program with Undertaker with little to no build:

    -El Gigante
    -Kama Mustafa
    -Kamala
    -King Kong Bundy

    People who've been dropped into a program with Undertaker with little to no build who turned into a massive success story:

    -Mick Foley

    I think it's fair to say that Foley being a hit rests on factors other than the marketting machine being behind him.


Yeah but none of those guys were willing to be the "gloriifed stuntman" that got Foley over. Let's face it if Foley didn't take all those bumps he never would've gotten over.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
Alex
Bratwurst








Since: 24.2.02

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.59
I'll chime in and agree with those saying that this is a really good read. His remarks towards Foley are in response to what Foley had to say regarding Flair's skills of a booker, to which Flair admits not being the best at. Although Flair contradicts Foley's statement of how Flair "let" Steve Austin and Mick Foley leave. Anyway, after about maybe a page or so, Flair segues into Sting, and Foley's name never comes up again.

Much more interesting was the account of Flair's struggle with depression and anxiety. For what he was going through at the time, he did one hell of a job of not conveying it to the fans. With other certain wrestlers, you can tell when their heart isn't in the game, but Flair never seemed to miss a beat. It also shed new light on the "special night in Greenville" as seen on Flair's DVD set (as an aside, the person whose idea it was to have that post-show tribute is both surprising, and yet, at the same time not).

The book also addresses questions I've had for some time, like why the hell Flair would go back to WCW after being sued, and why he left the World Wrestling Federation in the first place. Also, if you wanted to know which political party Flair supports (and which former president he has a picture of himself with!), now you can.


One interesting minutae is the reference to the World Wrestling Federation as such, and later on referring to WWE as an entity. Trivial, really, but it keeps the book from sounding too...pro-WWE.

The book is also quite well-edited. Mark Madden did a good job! Flair even refers to Madden as "my buddy." I can only assume that Flair took a policy of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" regarding his commentary skills. He doesn't come off as overly negative about anyone, really, aside from Bischoff and Jim Herd. How very fair of Flair.

Compared to Foley's book, I'd have to say that Flair's may be slightly better. Have a Nice Day is somewhat dated in its references to things that only wrestling fans of 5 years ago would understand (Test vs. Rodney, Nitro existing, etc). To Be The Man also stays more focused on the sport, which is purely a personal preference.

One question I have:

Ric Flair mentions being proud of the fact that the crowd will shout "Woooo!" when anyone delivers a knife-edge chop. Where did this originate? (Also, apparently the phrase "Woooooo!" is trademarked.)



Signatures are annoying.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1489 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
    Originally posted by Mack Salmon
    Where did this originate? (Also, apparently the phrase "Woooooo!" is trademarked.)


Didn't he get it from Jackie Fargo? Or was that the strut...



-- Asteroid Boy


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A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
I think Flair mentions in his fued with Wahoo that fans started doing the Wooo! I could be wrong though. It might be a spur of the moment thing like the fans chanting "You suck" during Kurt's theme when he confronted HHH when Hunter came back from the hamstring injury. It eventually catches on and it becomes part of the show.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.05
Flair got "Woooo" from the Great Balls Of Fire song.

He would shout it after a bunch of chops and the fans picked up on it pretty early on. It wasn't really until the mid-90's when I started hearing fans do it for other wrestlers, though. I think it was the Nitro/RAW Era where the copycat chants started becoming popular, where one crowd does something, everyone sees it on TV and starts doing it.



WWE now serving only -> "DIET CHAVO - All the taste - Half the fat!"
CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    It is out here, but you've gotta look for it. I found it at the downtown Indigo where I live, but it was in the biography section rather than the sports section. Maybe give a look there.


Good call! Went there this morning and finally found it. Thanks much for the tip, Vito.



WHOO!!! To know the man, you've got to read about the man! WHOO!!! Walk that aisle, Stinger, in the latest Inside The Ropes!!!
Check out the ITR Website, featuring the ridiculously expensive Canadian BullBLOG!!!
tsmstu
Chourico








Since: 12.7.03

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.51
he says he got the chop from wahoo and the whooo from great balls of fire.
MARTYEWR
Kishke








Since: 15.10.02

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    I believe the Steve Austin vs Undertaker match from the night after King of the Ring '99 also had the "This is Your Life" segment beat, too. Don't have the exact number on me, though.


Austin-Taker did a 9.5. It, as well as Rock-Shane (as Zed said), and Austin-Kane, Austin-Rock, Mongo-Eddie, Hogan-Goldberg, DDP-Goldberg, and a couple others I believe still did better than "This Is Your Life, Rock".



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W Of The Day: Tuesday, March 4, 2003
W Of The Day (2): Wednesday, October 29, 2003

"Because I'm the man, and the man's the man, and that's just the way it is!" -- Eric Foreman, That 70s Show

Rudoublesedoublel
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Kentucky - Home of the 8 time NCAA Champ Wildcats

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
I just fininshed reading Flair's book, and I really enjoyed it.

One point that I thought was interesting was that Flair was simply part of a booking committee - according to Flair, he didn't have the personal stroke to go one way or the other with Foley or Austin.

I'll admit that I'm a Flair mark, but I had trouble disagreeing with his assesments of Hart or Foley. Hart is bitter, Hart is a mark for himself, and Hart did rant a lot about Montreal. I understand that his brother died, but it did seem that he continually poured it to Vince in his grief.

I enjoy Foley, but I think Flair had a point. My first memory of Foley is Cactus Jack Manson challenging new world champ Sting. IMO, Cactus Jack simply looked and wrestled like a JTTS. He did feud with Vader in WCW, but I never believed that he could beat Vader. I only started to get into Foley when I noticed he was crazy. I'll repeat, I enjoy Foley - but he never was on Flair's level, and if it wasn't for huge bumps, he wouldn't have been close.
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.93

    Ric Flair mentions being proud of the fact that the crowd will shout "Woooo!" when anyone delivers a knife-edge chop. Where did this originate?
I believe the ECW crowds started the reflexive "whoo" after a chest chop. Before that, people would shout it only in reponse to Flair commentary or his own "whoo" cries.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
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Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    I believe the ECW crowds started the reflexive "whoo" after a chest chop. Before that, people would shout it only in reponse to Flair commentary or his own "whoo" cries.


Nah, I think it was earlier than that. I remember being at WWF house shows in the 80's, and we would do that no matter who administered a chop. Or maybe that's a Toronto thing...



WHOO!!! To know the man, you've got to read about the man! WHOO!!! Walk that aisle, Stinger, in the latest Inside The Ropes!!!
Check out the ITR Website, featuring the ridiculously expensive Canadian BullBLOG!!!
Jay
Bauerwurst








Since: 27.3.04
From: St. Louis, Missouri

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.49
Cactus Jack simply looked and wrestled like a JTTS.

Then he played the role to perfection. He was brought in as a challenger solely to make Sting look good. He even wrote in his first book how Sting was surprised at how willing Foley was to make him look good, as Sting's previous challenger were disgruntled about having to put the young champ over.



"Back in the old days of the Bash they had guys like Dean Malenko and Arn Anderson. But we got Sable and Torrie!" -Michael Cole continuing to prove he's an idiot (paraphrased due to me not having a copy of GAB 2004, nor will I ever)
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.37
Bought it this afternoon, and with some of the dead sections of RAW was able to go through it quickly.
A Few Thoughts:

A few minor errors, as Flair states Tully was U.S. Champ when the Horsemen ran roughshod in '86, whereas Tully actually lost the U.S. Title at Starrcade '85 to Magnum T.A. Tully did win the National Title in early '86 from Dusty due to Flair's interference from the color commentator position.
Flair states Malenko was Horsemen at the time of Arn Anderson's retirement speech, when Dean didn't join the Horsemen until a year later.
He also states Hall arrived in March of '96, when he actually appeared in May of '96.

Reading about the 10% grab by Gagne, I'm not shocked no one really misses him.
Have to wonder how wrestling would have been changed had Harley jumped ship the night before Starrcade. Not only would that have been a deathblow to the NWA, but would Vince have had to give Harley a run at top as compensation, thus delaying the Hogan rise?
Some of the wrestlers who complain about the internet should be happy they are getting ripped online rather than having fans jump the barriers with butcher knives, as would happen in the past.
Gee, I guess Flair really has no use for Sid. And, he got in a softball season shot in for old times sake. Surprised he didn't mention the stabbing in England though.
As for Cactus, I like Cactus. However, you take shots at people in your book, you can't go crying when people return the favor. And, if he uses 'I'm Part of the Company' as an excuse, wasn't Marc Mero still with the company when Cactus started writing his book? And, it is a completely different Stan Hansen that Flair describes outside the ring compared to Foley's Hansen. Either Stan matured greatly in a decade, or he is schizophrenic when he goes overseas.
Watching Flair in the 80's, I'm shocked he wasn't on coke. Considering he admitted to using steroids and being a drunk, have to take him at face value on his not using drugs.
Have to respect the job Tim Woods did to save kayfabe.
Would have liked to see Flair go into more detail with some of his early 80's feuds (More Von Erich, more Magnum, more Steamboat from that era).
Overall, a very good book, better than Foley's second book, and around the same level of his first (as Foley's first lost interest for me once he got to the WWF section).
And of course, if only he had gone for a small package: Your New National Wrestling Alliance World Heavyweight Champion, George South. Hell, it couldn't have been worse than Garvin.

(edited by redsoxnation on 12.7.04 2336)
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
What's good for the goose was good for the gander and remains good for the goose, as Bret Hart fired back with some really nasty stuff about Flair. I can't wait to see 30 more polemicized posts about it! (At least he mostly emphasized his work in his attack, I guess.) I have a feeling that whenever Mick Foley writes his strongly worded letter he'll be the fairest of all three of them.

(edited by JMShapiro on 12.7.04 2358)
MonteCarl
Potato korv








Since: 21.1.02
From: Saginaw, MI

Since last post: 54 days
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.66
And while Bret Hart has bashed Flair's book, another Canadian and Hart Dungeon graduate in Lance Storm has posted his praises on the book.

http://www.stormwrestling.com/071204.html
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Thanks Ryder, I have posted the story over in politics as well, for anyone (like me, for example) who wishes to discuss it in more general terms, so we can keep this discussion about Hassan. I hope the mods don't mind.
- Stilton, Hassan Discussion Thread (2004)
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