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The W - Pro Wrestling - Rey Mysterio (now longer Jr.) (Page 3)
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WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4252 days
#41 Posted on
Jubuki said:

"I didn't think much of Rey, aside from the main event run-in. Gassed-up, bad-knees Rey doesn't even beat Spot Fu Rey from WCW, let alone Willing to Bump Rey from last year's CMLL or Young and Awesome Rey from 95 & 96 pre-WCW. I think I'll stick with my Rey vs. Juvi tapes rather than acting as though "he's back". He ain't, and I'll be shocked if he maintains positive momentum for more than 2 months."

This is where the "supersmarts" piss me off. Okay, so he's not Rey under that mask? He can't wrestle because he has to sell (watch Rey/Juvi from ECW, I find it to be a boring spotfest), and actually got injured doing those same matches you want to watch? Why should a guy be disrespected as "not being the same guy" just because he got hurt taking insane bumps he shouldn't for you. He doesn't owe me anything. I don't expect insane top-cage frankensteiners from the guy.

Plus, when I think of Mysterio I think my personal favorites of his matches were all against one man. Dean Malenko. It was there that Rey didn't sell Malenko's big offense by getting up and doing another big move of his own (ala' non-WCW Rey and Juvi). It was there that Rey proved he could sell psychology and he would get one or two big spots it, but it meant so much more when he was forced to do it under the duress of "injury." Like their first match when Malenko did nothing but work the arm and he did his Frankensteiner through the legs menauever and couldn't hook one of the legs because it was too injured.

Also, as for the Lucha tradition, if you think WWE should honor Lucha tradition you're insane. As an actor I've had to do a lot of mask work and along the way I learned a lot about Mexican wrestling masks as well as their Greek and Italian forebears. So, if you want to take it back to it's Commedia Dellarte/Greek origins, which is where the Mexican wrestling got it's ideas for the mask initially, then it shouldn't matter if he "lost it" or not. He's an actor playing a part. He puts on the mask, and he is Mysterio. That is all. Sure you can cry and whine about tradition all you want, but hey, it's a new millenium. It's not like a hundred thousand other "traditions" haven't been pissed on in the past. And it's not like he's going to change it for us. And he shouldn't. He's too marketable with the mask. As an actor, I see wrestlers as such. They come out, play a part (usually good or evil) and try to get us fans into the athleticism and storylines of the event. So, he got paid to put the mask back on, it doesn't make him a whore or anti-tradition. It makes him a worker doing his goddamn job.

While, on the otherhand, I'm going to disagree losing his mask in WCW was a bad idea. Sure, he could have lost it in Mexico first (of course you top five percent supersmarks would then bitch about him losing his mask twice) and THEN lose it to Hall and Nash so as not to piss off the top five percent of you smarky-smarks and the Lucha "traditionalists". BUT, instead he did what his bosses told him to do. He did his job. And me, personally, I'd never heard anyhting more over than Rey losing his mask match versus the Outsiders and then the next night coming out in that camo gear (call him gangsta' rap Rey all you want, that's probably closer to the clothes he really wears on the streets) and pinning Nash 1-2-3. He was more over for the month than he had been in his entire WCW career under the mask. He even went on to face Flair and got to be the one to push Flair into the pool after Flair got DQed. Say what you want, losing the mask was the best thing in his career at that point.

Plus, would you have accepted it more had he lost the mask to Eddy, originally, like it was planned? Remember back when he wore the full-body mask and faced Eddy in a mask vs. championship mask? Well, he was scheduled to lose it then and of course, in true WCW style, after a complete week of worry about it and Eddy telling him he didn't have to do it if he didn't want, and Bischoff telling him if he didn't do it he was going to be in trouble, they came up to him ten minutes before the match and said he wasn't losing it. Would you have accepted a loss to a fellow Mexican and former mask bearer?

And I like the guy who said this, (Faust):

"By the way, the American tradition seems to be "anything goes," so it's fair to say that he is honoring the American tradition. What's wrong with that? Why is it more important that he honor the Mexican tradition than honor the American tradition?"

Amen. This is the WWE. There's nothing more American than that. Because I'm an American and I'm sick of these comparisons about honor and tradition and all that crap. Wrestling EVERYWHERE is for one single goal, in mind. To make money. And we're just as good, if not better, than anyone else at doing that. And I'm entertained as well as about seventy plus percent of the audience crowd. Viva America!

Why should Rey care? He was made in AAA and the like, but he's not there now. He's in the place where the most people flock to see the best in the world and he gets paid to play to the highest percentile on television once to twice a week. And if any AAA masked wrestler says they wouldn't do that, then they're a damned liar or a fool. Sure, the American fans aren't as rabid as Japanese fans, and don't know or somtimes even care about the "tradition" of Lucha fans. But, hey, it's AMERICA. We're a whole bunch of different cultures all balled into one anyways, and I can respect that there are different forms of wrestling all over the world.

In fact, I don't even know why I posted this now, the super-smarks are gonna' hold their highly valued position and everyone else that's entertained by masked Rey will just nod and agree on some points. In the end I haven't really accomplished a damn thing. Different strokes for different folks. Me personally, I'm bored with the AJ Styles, Lo-Ki, Jerry Lynn spotfests. I want to see selling, I want to see wrestling also, but I don't need these guys putting their body on the line every two minutes to entertain me so I get my money's worth. I get my money's worth when a good story is told in the ring, and I just don't see that in ECW Rey/Juvi or NWA Styles/Loki. Plus, I like Rey Mysterio. He's a solid wrestler who can tell a story in-ring.



(edited by WhoBettahThanDeion on 27.7.02 2204)


I got two blips on my Ha-dar. Shoot 'em down!

The next time I hear you say "glass ceiling" or you complain about someone being shoved down their throats, I'm gonna take that glass ceiling and shove it down your throat.

BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4416 days
#42 Posted on
    Originally posted by WhoBettahThanDeion
    He can't wrestle because he has to sell (watch Rey/Juvi from ECW, I find it to be a boring spotfest), and actually got injured doing those same matches you want to watch?
    (edited by WhoBettahThanDeion on 27.7.02 2204)



Dammit! Stop taking my opinions! *I* said Rey-Juvi in ECW was a boring spotfest. *YOU* said, and I quote, "It was tight!"

Come on man.

Anyway, I agree with everything else you said.

(edited by BobHollySTILLRules on 28.7.02 0120)


"BobHollySTILLRules STILL rules!"-SmooveK

Bengals, Playoffs, 2002.

DON'T BELIEVE IT!

*I* want to be the right one!
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4252 days
#43 Posted on
Note to everyone:

BobHollySTILLRules isn't a real friend.

Also, thanks for those free pay per views! SUCKAAAAAAA'!



I got two blips on my Ha-dar. Shoot 'em down!

The next time I hear you say "glass ceiling" or you complain about someone being shoved down their throats, I'm gonna take that glass ceiling and shove it down your throat.

Faust
Salami








Since: 27.7.02

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#44 Posted on
Wow, excellent point, Deion - I forgot all about the Commedia stuff. It's important to realize that even if you have a tradition that dictates one thing, it's likely you can go back even further and find an even older tradition that might supercede it.

Second, just to chime in on the spotfest stuff - personally I enjoy high flying moves that are sensible and logical and fit well into the context of the match. For example of stuff I don't like, take the Shooting Star Press. I mean, at least with a moonsault, the flipping increases the downward momentum of the lower half of the attackers body, increasing the impact of the move, in theory. (especially if the opponent is standing up at the point of impact) A shooting star press, however, actually decreases the downward momentum of the upper body (the part that makes contact), making it look *less* lethal and a LOT more dangerous to the attacker than a splash. Other than it looking "flashy" and cool, the inverted sommersault is totally foolish in a realistic context. I guess my point is that I enjoy highspots that make sense and are not gratuitous. I don't mind corkscrew stuff so much because while it is gratuitous, it's at least not too dangerous. That springboard shooting star press I saw Kidman do onto the outside on a standing opponent a few months ago is a great example of stuff I don't like to see. It basically looked like he landed on his feet and tackled the guy. I appreciate the effort to entertain, but why put your nervous system at risk for that? Especially when you are as talented a wrestler as Kidman. Seriously, he does not need that kind of stuff to work a good match.

That last paragraph was a little smarky, and I apologize.
Notorious F.A.B.
Pepperoni








Since: 4.2.02
From: Dudleyville's Gay Ghetto

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#45 Posted on
i'm curious what the "lucha purists" have to say about eddie guerrero popping up in japan under a mask while still in wcw.

right now i'm equating the mask discussion with that thread from so many months ago about how the booker t. shampoo angle was racist. pfft.

not being a wrestling fan from mexico myself, i say more power to him for having the mask this time around. it will ultimately give the tradition more exposure.
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

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#46 Posted on

    Originally posted by Fab
    i'm curious what the "lucha purists" have to say about eddie guerrero popping up in japan under a mask while still in wcw.

    right now i'm equating the mask discussion with that thread from so many months ago about how the booker t. shampoo angle was racist. pfft.

    not being a wrestling fan from mexico myself, i say more power to him for having the mask this time around. it will ultimately give the tradition more exposure.



I kind of agree with you there. Mysterio wouldn't have gotten pushed this much minus the mask right now. But, onto something else I've been pondering.

One of the things Mysterio's been limited to after his surgery's is he can't take knee bumps. What I mean by that is, Mysterio isn't supposed to do a lot of moves where he landed on his feet, because the cartilege in his knee is so bad and the heels of his feet are in bad shape as well. And one thing I noticed is in Rey's entrance he gets shot in the air where he lands on his feet, and then when he wrestled Chavo he did 2 or 3 of his flip manuevers where he landed, ON HIS FEET. I only hope Rey isn't setting himself up for an injury by doing things he shouldn't. Plus, I think he found a lot more interesting ways, with the injuries to work psychology and more varied moves into his moveset AFTER the injury.

Also, I would consider myself somewhat knowledgable about the lucha tradition from Mexico. My only question is, what are the differences between masked wrestlers in Japan and masked wrestlers on Mexico? I can't remember ever hearing of a "mask vs mask" match in Japan, and wondered if the same rules apply. It seems like in Japan the masks are more like a for life gimmick (based on cartoon's being based around certain people and their masks). And I would be interested to hear the experts chime in on this.



I got two blips on my Ha-dar. Shoot 'em down!

The next time I hear you say "glass ceiling" or you complain about someone being shoved down their throats, I'm gonna take that glass ceiling and shove it down your throat.

odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 159 days
Last activity: 126 days
#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41

I can't recall a mask vs. mask match in Japan, which is not to say it hasn't happened.

Eddy Guerrero and Black Tiger (II) were two different characters, if you will. Eddy didn't wrestle as Eddy in Japan (except recently), he wrestled as Black Tiger. When he went back to Japan this year, he wrestled as Eddy, since he was teaming with the new Black Tiger (Silver King).

The closest thing that happened in Japan that I can think of is Hayabusa wrestling as "H," his "sports entertainment" character. But I think he had stopped wearing his mask by then. But, this is hazy, as I didn't/don't care about FMW.

But I think Masks in Japan and Masks in Mexico are apples and oranges, just like they are here in the US.

Nobody here apparently wants to hear the whole "lucha culture" argument, so I won't rehash it here. Let me just put it this way.

In the US, the biggest grudge match between two people feuding is the cage match (and its descendants, the Hell/Cell or Wargames). In Mexico, it's mascara vs. mascara.

If losing your mask wasn't important in Mexico, then people wouldn't wait for years and years to do it and get a payoff equal to months of their regular salary.

Jubuki
Kolbasz








Since: 16.7.02

Since last post: 4424 days
Last activity: 4408 days
#48 Posted on
Hey, DeionBoy - you actually SEEN his stuff from AAA and indy shows in '95 and '96, or are you just talking out your ass about Rey "showing he could sell in WCW"? Uh, yeah, by the way, I already *KNEW* that because he was already a good Luchador. Try WATCHING the matches and seeing the difference before getting swept up in your Jim Duggan-esque "USA! USA!" jingoism in the future, could you? My point - which I apparently didn't make simple enough - was that I'll pop in a tape of Rey vs. Juvi from 3/96 before I'll watch Smackdown for this Rey. But that's been true for years now; I'd watch good wrestling before I'd watch crap.



Chris
The AIR RAID CRASH
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4252 days
#49 Posted on
Hey moron, obviously you didn't read my post as I have "SEEN" Rey/Juvi. I don't know the dates but they're definitely pre-WCW, a couple Triple A where Psicosis I believe is in Juvi's corner and Rey's ECW stints (both of his 2 out of 3 falls matches, though one's clipped). I'm not impressed.

READ my fuckin' post you jerkoff. I said it's not my cup of tea, but I can understand why people like it. Get over it.

Here's what I see in those matches, it's spot to spot to spot with each guy selling his own offense more than his opponent about 30 percent of the time. Now, I can't say it's bad, just not my style. I mean, seeing Juvi get right up after top rope frankensteiners and frankensteiners onto bare concrete just doesn't sell well, to me. Get over it.

As for my "USA" jingoism, I can't help it. I'm American. I've seen the rest. My preferance is WWE. Sure, I love those classic Benoit/Liger matchups, but right now, I'd rather see Eddy/RVD, or Angle/Edge than anything else. And I'm adding Rey/Kidman and Rey/Noble to that list.

"Good wrestling before crap" my ASS! I can see where you're coming from but FUCK you pal for trying to insinuate you SMARXIST thoughts on me. It's a waste of BOTH of our times to argue, you like you Lucha Libre, I like WWE. You call your crap, while I call Luchadores walking down the streets in full gear getting interview "funny".

I respect your opinion, you could at least respect mine.



I got two blips on my Ha-dar. Shoot 'em down!

The next time I hear you say "glass ceiling" or you complain about someone being shoved down their throats, I'm gonna take that glass ceiling and shove it down your throat.

BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4416 days
#50 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jubuki
    Hey, DeionBoy - you actually SEEN his stuff from AAA and indy shows in '95 and '96, or are you just talking out your ass about Rey "showing he could sell in WCW"? Uh, yeah, by the way, I already *KNEW* that because he was already a good Luchador. Try WATCHING the matches and seeing the difference before getting swept up in your Jim Duggan-esque "USA! USA!" jingoism in the future, could you? My point - which I apparently didn't make simple enough - was that I'll pop in a tape of Rey vs. Juvi from 3/96 before I'll watch Smackdown for this Rey. But that's been true for years now; I'd watch good wrestling before I'd watch crap.


Yeah! Damn Rey Mysterio for SELLING Chavo's offense! I liked it so much better when Rey got right up from a Juvi suplex so he could rana him. God I love it when wrestling moves DON'T hurt. How Mark Henry-esque that was.



"BobHollySTILLRules STILL rules!"-SmooveK

Bengals, Playoffs, 2002.

DON'T BELIEVE IT!

*I* want to be the right one!
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
can't we all just get along.

Raymond Sterio is back, and [Dieter] I'm as happy as a little girl [pulls on shirt to simulate pointy nipples]



"You can't fire a gun in a confined space! What are you tring to do, make us deaf?!"
"Just get out of the chopper."
"What?"
"Get out of the chopper!"
"The crops!?" - Jack Lemmon and James Garner, "My Fellow Americans", and the reason I say "The crops?" instead of "Huh?"
R-D-Z
BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4416 days
#52 Posted on
I agree with you rikidozan, we should all just be happy Rey's back, but it seems some people would rather just bitch about how he's back in the mask and how he's not quite the same as he was before instead of enjoying this still very talented man for what he is today. It's sad that a so-called fan can rip apart a guy like that.

(edited by BobHollySTILLRules on 28.7.02 1155)


"BobHollySTILLRules STILL rules!"-SmooveK

Bengals, Playoffs, 2002.

DON'T BELIEVE IT!

*I* want to be the right one!
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Originally posted by BobHollySTILLRules
    I agree with you rikidozan, we should all just be happy Rey's back, but it seems some people would rather just bitch about how he's back in the mask and how he's not quite the same as he was before instead of enjoying this still very talented man for what he is today. It's sad that a so-called fan can rip apart a guy like that.

    (edited by BobHollySTILLRules on 28.7.02 1155)



then let us all have one big "Scott Keith sucks as a recapper" and move on.






"You can't fire a gun in a confined space! What are you tring to do, make us deaf?!"
"Just get out of the chopper."
"What?"
"Get out of the chopper!"
"The crops!?" - Jack Lemmon and James Garner, "My Fellow Americans", and the reason I say "The crops?" instead of "Huh?"
R-D-Z
Jubuki
Kolbasz








Since: 16.7.02

Since last post: 4424 days
Last activity: 4408 days
#54 Posted on
I was referring to their feud in MEXICO. In Antonio Pena's promotion, and on Mexican indy shows (where their 3/96 classic happened). Not their stuff in ECW. Didn't I say this? Doesn't it say "AAA" in my post? Or did you think I saw them wrestling at a car dealership in San Diego? Watch THOSE matches - y'know, the ones with Rey Misterio Sr. & Fuerza Guerrera involved - and you'll see Rey AND Juvi performing better than they ever did (with maybe 2 exceptions for Rey and none for Juvi) in the U.S. THAT is the Rey I like to see. I can't help it if you haven't tracked down those tapes and don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I'm starting to think my signature on all these boards should include the phrase "Watch the matches in question before putting fingers to keyboard."





Chris
The AIR RAID CRASH
Mr Tuesday
Kolbasz








Since: 6.1.02
From: Chicago, IL

Since last post: 899 days
Last activity: 604 days
#55 Posted on
Am I the only one to notice that it seems that Rey stole Kane's contacts?

Or was this already said?





You aren't a very bright person, but since you always mean well
and you're so likeable, people don't really care.

Take The "Which WWF Wrestler are you?" Quiz.
Created by Potman

Jubuki
Kolbasz








Since: 16.7.02

Since last post: 4424 days
Last activity: 4408 days
#56 Posted on
Saturn had them at one point as well. Sometime after the Flock bit, I forget when.



Chris
The AIR RAID CRASH
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4252 days
#57 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jubuki
    I was referring to their feud in MEXICO. In Antonio Pena's promotion, and on Mexican indy shows (where their 3/96 classic happened). Not their stuff in ECW. Didn't I say this? Doesn't it say "AAA" in my post? Or did you think I saw them wrestling at a car dealership in San Diego? Watch THOSE matches - y'know, the ones with Rey Misterio Sr. & Fuerza Guerrera involved - and you'll see Rey AND Juvi performing better than they ever did (with maybe 2 exceptions for Rey and none for Juvi) in the U.S. THAT is the Rey I like to see. I can't help it if you haven't tracked down those tapes and don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I'm starting to think my signature on all these boards should include the phrase "Watch the matches in question before putting fingers to keyboard."




That's one match, pal. I've seen Rey's AAA stuff. It's decent at best. For MY money nothing beats his stuff with Malenko/Eddy in the goo ol' WCW. That was one series of matches your talking about. That's like people STILL putting Regal over for a match he had with Benoit 2 years ago at the Pillman Memorial, or the Best of 7 still being thrown around as something should be done. I'm living in the year 2002, not 1995-96. Sure, I've seen the tapes, obviously I either didn't see or don't remember the match(s) in question you're talking about, but my point is this:

Comparing Rey of '96 to Rey of '02 isn't fair, the guy got hurt. I don't need to see Mysterio wrestling "your style" and blowing his knees out. Those days are past, get over it. It's not like the guy's a shell of his former self. He's still good, WHO cares he's not taking insane bumps onto concrete. Here's better idea how about we haul your fatass up to the top rope throw you off a few times and see how well your legs do under the strain and see if YOU can still wrestle "lucha style." There's a reason he can't wrestle like that anymore. He got hurt doing those same manuever's. It would be idiotic for him to still wrestle that way when he's physically incapable of doing it. I like the guy but there's not reason for him to not be walking in four or five years because he wanted entertain some minority fanbase that only cares about high spots.

That and you're judging him off of one 5 minute match with Chavo, which I personally liked. The guy STILL has workrate.

By the way you might want to reset you clock it's 2002. Also, as for his feuds in MEXICO, well, Rey doesn't wrestle in MEXICO anymore. He wrestles in AMERICA. Get used to it. That or live vicariously through your tapes, I'm living in the NOW.

No one's going to win this argument, you have your opinion and I have mine. Nothing's going to change that.



I RESPECT you opinion. Please respect mine. Or feel the wrath of Buddha!

J-Lo and Ja' Rule are the worst singing/rapping duo I've ever seen in my life (my response to the "totally live" performance of that annoying "Ain't it Funny" song at last year's VMA's. The show where everybody goes home happy and the winner's aren't really winners, they're just people randomly selected based upon their pop status).
count olaf
Goetta








Since: 15.7.02

Since last post: 3521 days
Last activity: 3517 days
#58 Posted on
I'm going to have to go with Deion on this one. I try to have a life, which means living in the here and now instead of pining away for the long lost days of the past. Rey's here in WWE now in 2002. I'm just going to relax and enjoy him for what he is, not what he was.
WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4252 days
#59 Posted on
Thank you. I've waited for weeks and it finally happened! Someone agreed with me! Which just proves a theory I've had for awhile now! You like me, you REALLY like me!

All kidding aside, that's also been the problem with the people who STILL think the NWO is coming back. They're living in '96.

Oh, and Jubuki, my avatar says it all!



I RESPECT you opinion. Please respect mine. Or feel the wrath of Buddha!

J-Lo and Ja' Rule are the worst singing/rapping duo I've ever seen in my life (my response to the "totally live" performance of that annoying "Ain't it Funny" song at last year's VMA's. The show where everybody goes home happy and the winner's aren't really winners, they're just people randomly selected based upon their pop status).
BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4416 days
Last activity: 4416 days
#60 Posted on
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! When taken in the context of this topic, Deion, my friend, I must say that avatar is classic.



"BobHollySTILLRules STILL rules!"-SmooveK

Bengals, Playoffs, 2002.

DON'T BELIEVE IT!

*I* want to be the right one!
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Saw that one. Good job by the WWF, continuing to put over the nWo as a serious threat.
- ekedolphin, New WM18 Poster, (2002)
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