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The W - Random - Return of the King (Spoilers) (Page 2)
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chuckc14
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Since: 2.1.02
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.27
    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
      Originally posted by chuckc14
      OK, having NOT read any of these previous posts...Is this a spoiler free thread????


    Not really, no.


OK thanks...I'll have to wait until Saturday to come back here...

(edited by chuckc14 on 18.12.03 1548)


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Since: 4.11.02
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.48
    Originally posted by vsp
      Originally posted by Torchslasher
      This is of course a great, great movie, but I do have one big problem with it. After the climax of the movie, there is about 30 minutes of post-Ring activities. It really did drag on for too long. And don't worry, I know that half the final book is given to this, but the movie should have pared it down.


    Nope. The movie should've included the REAL ending (the Scouring of the Shire). Sometimes you win the war and defeat evil and go home and DON'T live happily ever after...




That's still the gist of the ending, though. The one scene where they were all at the tavern drinking, not smiling...that scene is amazing. It says more with their faces than words could ever say.




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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.67
Great movie. I however was greatly disappointed by the fact that the Mouth Of Sauron was omitted from the narrative. It was a scene I was looking forward to ever since I finished reading the books. To those who don't know what I'm talking about, the mouth of sauron is the spirit of angmar. When Aragorn and Co. go to the black gate, The Mouth of Sauron appears and tosses the good guys Frodo's effects and his mithril shirt. He offers them a chance to surrender and explains the terms of Sauron's new rule over Middle-Earth. Anyway, I was very sad to see it gone. Probably moreso than other things from the books that were excised from the film, but I was not expecting this part to be gone.



(edited by The Vile1 on 19.12.03 0118)



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Since: 2.1.02
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
They did shoot the Mouth Of Sauron scenes, with Bruce Spence (the Trainman from Matrix Revolutions) as the MOS, but it looks like it ended up on the cutting-room floor for pacing reasons. I was looking forward to see the visual representation of him, but I can wait for the special edition, and you can see why it was cut.

"Nope. The movie should've included the REAL ending (the Scouring of the Shire). Sometimes you win the war and defeat evil and go home and DON'T live happily ever after...

(Caveat: The last Jackson movie I watched was "Meet the Feebles." If I want to visualize LOTR, I re-read the books and close my eyes.)"

If you're saying what I think you are (haven't watched the movies due to Peter Jackson's presence and the changes to the book), then man, that's just DUMB. You're missing out on seeing the best fantasy films ever made. Jackson's body of work may suggest to you that he wasn't a suitable guy for the job-but that assumption is dead wrong. And the changes to the book are, when you actually look at the differences between the written and visual mediums, really really sensible storytelling.

If you're saying something else entirely, however, then never mind.



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Since: 3.1.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    If you're saying what I think you are (haven't watched the movies due to Peter Jackson's presence and the changes to the book), then man, that's just DUMB. You're missing out on seeing the best fantasy films ever made. Jackson's body of work may suggest to you that he wasn't a suitable guy for the job-but that assumption is dead wrong. And the changes to the book are, when you actually look at the differences between the written and visual mediums, really really sensible storytelling.

    If you're saying something else entirely, however, then never mind.


No, I _like_ Peter Jackson, and it tickles me greatly that the same guy who directed LOTR also presented puppet hummers and cursed Sumerian rat-monkey zombies to the world.

But books like LOTR and Dune stand out because of their attention to detail. Tolkien and Herbert didn't just create well-written plots; they went beyond that to create well-written _worlds_. I'm not a dress-up-like-an-elf-and-go-to-conventions fanatic about either series, but I can appreciate quality writing when I read it.

And then we come to David Lynch's "Dune," which was not a _terrible_ movie by any means -- very arty, some great visuals -- but which illustrated nicely the perils of trying to put that intricate a book on screen. When watching the movie, I felt as if the writers had opened the book to every third page, picked out a plot element from that page, jotted it down and called the end result a screenplay. There were characters and scenes that were familiar to those who'd read the book, but the "why" behind the "what" was absolutely gone.

From what I've read of the LOTR movies, I'm confident that I'd nit-pick them to death just as much. Jacking up Arwen's role so that Liv Tyler would have more screen time? Chopping out not just the Scouring, but Saruman _entirely_ from ROTK? (Jackson says "It'll be on the DVD." Well, then why go see the theatrical version?) No Mouth? No Bombadil? Substantial tinkering with the plot and chronology throughout the three movies, according to multiple sources I've read? No, thank you.

The level of detail I'd want is simply not filmable, even over ten hours, and I reserve the right to stamp my foot and demand ALL of the loaf, not just half, if they're going to try to film it at all.

EDIT: I will note that this isn't some vendetta against Lynch or Jackson in particular -- books rarely fare at all well when translated to film. I'm still waiting for a decent "Fletch" movie, and if THAT can't make the transition, what chance do books like Tolkien's have?

Plus, if I wait long enough, they'll release the Extra-Special Even More Extended DVD edition of each movie, once everyone's bought the Standard editions and the Special Extended editions. And then they'll come out with the Super-Spectacular Really Fookin' Huge Super-Extended This Is The Final And Definitive We Really Mean It editions.

(edited by vsp on 19.12.03 1153)

(edited by vsp on 19.12.03 1156)

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.06
Okay, I saw it. It's a great movie. I particularly liked the effect of the ring (on its chain) digging into Frodo's skin.

Funny line: Gandalf talking to the soldiers "You are soldiers of Gondor. No matter what comes through that gate, stand your ground." then the trolls come through and Gandalf's face just goes "oh shit".



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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54

    And then we come to David Lynch's "Dune," which was not a _terrible_ movie by any means -- very arty, some great visuals -- but which illustrated nicely the perils of trying to put that intricate a book on screen. When watching the movie, I felt as if the writers had opened
    From what I've read of the LOTR movies, I'm confident that I'd nit-pick them to death just as much. Jacking up Arwen's role so that Liv Tyler would have more screen time? Chopping out not just the Scouring, but Saruman _entirely_ from ROTK? (Jackson says "It'll be on the DVD." Well, then why go see the theatrical version?) No Mouth? No Bombadil? Substantial tinkering with the plot and chronology throughout the three movies, according to multiple sources I've read? No, thank you.


Just a small note: Liv Tyler is barely in any of the three movies. I think she's on-screen for about thirty minutes combined. The trailers and commercials really play up the Arwen/Aragorn romance (to bring in the female viewers, no doubt) more than the actual film does.



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#28 Posted on
I love both the movie and books. I think both are great fantasy stories. I think, to truly indulge the atmosphere of either, you have to put its counterpart out of your mind.

To love the movie, you must be willing to accept that, as a movie, it cannot forge the entire Tolkien world; it simply hasn't the time.

To love the book, you must also be willing to accept that the sheer physical beauty of the regions it describes must be seen to be truly appreciated, which the movie can do to a much greater degree, for obvious reasons.

Both have their ups and downs. But disliking either based on aspects of its literal or cinematic counterpart is a flawed concept. Both stand on their own merits.
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Since: 11.11.02
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.50
I'm not a Tolkein fan, but I did enjoy the movies and was suitably impressed. However, I'd argue that the movie should win best picture, but that Jackson should not win best director. Before you skewer me, please remember, I did really enjoy the movies. Seriously. Very much.

Lemme explain. It really is the best movie out there this year. It's captivating. But Jackson has issues as a director.

1. As mentioned before, the teasing False Endings. There are about four of these, and they all have long fadeouts accompanying them. That's overkill. That's not good direction. And that prompted someone in my theater to say "Oh, for God's sake!" really loud after the second false ending, when we all thought it was over. Instead of shushing that person, the theater erupted in laughter.

Sure, Jackson had to deal with a book that had lots and lots of ending scenes in it. But he should have dealt with it in a way that doesn't tease and lure the audience into thinking the end has come, then leave them feeling jerked around and exasperated when the ending doesn't come. I felt very emotional when the endings began; my eyes were misted, and I had a lump in my throat. By the very end, I was impatient and frustrated. The emotion had been yanked out of me.

2. EXTREME CLOSE UP!!!!
I got to the theater late, and the only way me and my two friends could sit together was if we sat in the very front row. And you realize things about the movie when you sit in the front row. One of which is that about 1/20th of the shots in the movie are of someone's GIANT HEAD FILLING THE SCREEN. I spent a good bunch of the movie looking at the makeup that darkened Sam and Frodo's pores, the faint chapping of Eowyn's lips, and the tremendous size of Liv Tyler's pupils.

Jackson just won't back up and let the actors act. In almost every emotional scene, Jackson gets up tight on the face, filling the entire shot with "moving" eyes, trembling mouth, etc. As a result, you lose perspective. You can't see what else is going on during the scene. You can't see the other actors REACT, and the emotion is forced down you.

That sort of direction hamstrings the actors and coerces the audience. It doesn't allow for ambiguity or viewer interpretation. It's just not Best Director caliber.

Anyway, these are the things that occur to you when you're staring at a thirty-foot-tall head while tilting your head back and trying to see everything.



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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21

On the other hand, my wife and I sat front row balcony last night, so the close-ups were just the right size! I like the close-ups, especially later on when I am watching the DVD on my little 27" television set.

I must chime in on the false endings as well. Jeb hit the nail on the head that by the second false ending, my feeling was kind of exasperated as well. I was thinking "is this really the end now?" instead of just enjoying the movie.

Overall, thumbs way up, though.




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Since: 24.6.02
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
Saw it last saturday.

I'm glad Jackson took all the time he needed for the multiple endings. They were perfect and the whole movie was friggin' fantastic!

I understand why "The Scouring of the Shire" was omitted, that might have been too much and I'm sure the extended version will be even better. Just like the first two extended versions are way better than the theatrical versions.

Going to see it again friday. What a great movie.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
Best line of the film:

When Sam is taking out the Orcs in the tower to save webbed Frodo:

"This one's for FRODO! That one's for THE SHIRE! AND THAT...is for MY OLD GAFFER!"

Unfortunately, I was the only person in the theater who laughed at the Gaffer line, because I was apparently the only person in the theater who had read the books. Therefore, I laughed VERY LOUDLY and several people looked at me like, "Why are you laughing at such a dramatic part, you cocksmoker?!"

Anyway, best movie EVAR except for the externals in my theater. Three little boys behind me were mute during the battles but didn't cease jabbering during the dramatic parts that actually, you know, had some WEIGHT and MEANING and other meaningless crap. Then, at the climax of the whole saga, right when Gollum fell into the lava, the film started running backwards and the audio just started going "WOP WOP WOP WOP GUG GUGUGGUG." I thought there would be a riot!



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Since: 4.11.02
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.48
    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    Best line of the film:

    When Sam is taking out the Orcs in the tower to save webbed Frodo:

    "This one's for FRODO! That one's for THE SHIRE! AND THAT...is for MY OLD GAFFER!"

    Unfortunately, I was the only person in the theater who laughed at the Gaffer line, because I was apparently the only person in the theater who had read the books. Therefore, I laughed VERY LOUDLY and several people looked at me like, "Why are you laughing at such a dramatic part, you cocksmoker?!"



I suddenly don't feel alone in my geekiness for doing the same thing. The Gaffer is a joke between my friends and I. When we first saw Fellowship, we mentioned that Sam didn't bring up Gaffer and how odd that was. In the book, every other sentence, Sam is talking about the damned Gaffer. When he mentioned him in Two Towers, we all cheered and we did the same thing in Return of the King.



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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96
    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    Then, at the climax of the whole saga, right when Gollum fell into the lava, the film started running backwards and the audio just started going "WOP WOP WOP WOP GUG GUGUGGUG." I thought there would be a riot!


Son of a bitch, the projectionist put Reel 9 on backwards!!
The sound head tries to read the sound normally, so you get the insane backwards looping. Luckily, all four of our prints got made expertly by my coworkers & I.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
Right on for geekiness!
I was equally disappointed that Samwise didn't go ON AND ON about the need for good rope. That was one of the more charming bits in the books, for some reason.

And on the projector problems...I missed whatever Sam said to Frodo as Frodo was dangling over the lava holding Sam's hand. I tried to read his lips and it looked like a simple, "Come on, Mr. Frodo!" but I couldn't really tell.

Can anyone fill me in? Did I miss one of the best moments by missing the line?

Oh, and my other favorite quote:
When Legolas took out the Oliphaunt and about 30 guys who were riding it and Gimli said, "That still counts as ONE!"



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Since: 3.1.02
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96
    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    Right on for geekiness!
    I was equally disappointed that Samwise didn't go ON AND ON about the need for good rope. That was one of the more charming bits in the books, for some reason.

    And on the projector problems...I missed whatever Sam said to Frodo as Frodo was dangling over the lava holding Sam's hand. I tried to read his lips and it looked like a simple, "Come on, Mr. Frodo!" but I couldn't really tell.

    Can anyone fill me in? Did I miss one of the best moments by missing the line?

    Oh, and my other favorite quote:
    When Legolas took out the Oliphaunt and about 30 guys who were riding it and Gimli said, "That still counts as ONE!"


From what I remember from watching that part a half-dozen times, Sam tells Frodo "Don't you let go!", reflecting the scene in the first film where Frodo saves Sam from drowning and Sam recalls his promise to Gandalf "Don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee". I figure that neither Frodo nor Sam knew that Gandalf was still around, and Sam was basically fulfilling what he thought were Gandalf's last wishes towards him.

Either way, the movie ruled. Projection problems can totally f*** a movie up, though. We've been totally anal this week about any minor thing because we didn't want angry hordes after us. So far, so good.



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Since: 4.1.02
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.51
There wasn't a moment in this movie that didn't touch me at some level.

Acting was also brilliant imo.
From the moment he appeared I HATED Denethor. Well played.
Theoden went from this man who was broken (and didnt take charge at Helms deep) to this glorious hero (reflected in his last words)..again well acted.

Sam/Frodo/Gollum/the Ring..no words. Brilliantly portrayed by all involved.
OH! And what about the SMEAGOL scene at the beginning?!!Awesome! Also really clever because it showed what the ring could do to a person and might do to Frodo.

Merry and Pippin were great too. Despite not showing the scouring you really get the idea that they grew as people through out the movie. Sure they are still funny lads but they are the first to charge the armies at the gates of Mordor behind Aragorn.

One of my favorite parts is when Gandalf asks Aragorn if he thinks Frodo lives, Aragorn answers what does your heart tell you. The simple look of elation on Gandalf said it all.
*claps his hands at Sir Ian*

The speech Theoden gave his men on the fields gave me chills, same as the one by Aragorn in front of the gate.

Shelob looked horrifyingly amazing. The Dead were great too.
(Another powerful scene. "Regain you honor. what say ye!")
Legolas vs. the Mumakil..yet Gimli takes the scene by saying 'but that counts as one!'

Yes, I would have loved it if Saruman, the Scouring and the Mouth had been there but there is only so much you can show..No moment was wasted so alas there has to be some cutting.
I cannot wait for the extended version.

Oh, another omision (which is in the trailer btw) is Gandalf meeting face to "face" with the Witchking. Again, see extended version.

The mouth of Sauron btw is apparently in the ROTK game. I haven't made it that far yet but when I do I hope it will include some of the movie footage already (the game is filled with it. Thank God I got it for xmas so after seeing the movie)



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Since: 8.5.03
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
Please excuse my continuity-driven geek question:

In the first film, a troll fails to spear Frodo because Frodo's wearing Mithril, the elven chain mail. In the third movie, Shelob stabs him with her venom stinger, apparently through the armor. Do the books explain this seeming contradiction? Is this a "wait for the DVD" thing?

(edited by Matt Tracker on 27.12.03 0632)



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Since: 2.1.02
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41

My memory could be faulty, but I don't think he's wearing the Mythril by that point. Why he lost it, I don't remember.




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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
Jackson deserves Best Director as an overall award for what he's accomplished-adapting what most Hollywood players called "the untouchable book", doing it with a total lack of ego, never losing track of the emotional core of the story through all of it's expanded scope. And besides, do we REALLY need to see Anthony Minghella or Clint pick up another award for directorial work that's exactly the same as their last winning efforts?

Quick note: Did anyone else notice the disappearing horses during the Black Gate scene? The Gondorian army rides up to the gate, they open, and Aragorn leads the charge-and suddenly they're all on foot. Heh.



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